Transcripts

EP 411: The Composer and the Sound Designer

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. The presenting sponsor of Season four of Catch A Break.

As Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot featuring New York and LA Downtown Street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices, along with post-production space dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all their clients.

Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need and budget. Find them at santaclaritastudios.com. This is the last episode in our Project Greenlight [00:01:00] series where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. I hope you've enjoyed this series as much as I have.

If you want more, you can go to our website at catchabreakpodcast.com for pictures and transcripts. We're already working on season five and we have some very interesting episodes lined up for you, so be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. For this final episode, I sat down with Jeff Pitts, the sound designer and Haim Mazar, the composer of Gray Matter. We talked about how the music and sound work together, how they differentiate, and it struck me how amazing it is to talk to people who are able to put words to things that are actually very difficult to talk about. Okay, have a listen.

Welcome to Catch A Break. Jeff Pitts is a primetime Emmy award-winning sound designer, originally from Akron, Ohio, Jeff came to LA in 2007 and began his career working on indie films like Battle for Tara, Wackness and the World's Greatest Dad. Since then, his work has [00:02:00] expanded to include higher profile productions, including Blair Witch, Death Note, the Guest and You're Next, plus numerous Lego franchises including Hero Factory, Lego Atlantic, Lego Jurassic World, Lego Guardians of the Galaxy and the Ninjago 4D Ride at Lego Land. Like your Mr. Lego.

Jeff will go to extremes to get good sounds. He's combed through junkyards to find the perfect sounds of machinery and scrap metal, followed Route 66 into the Mojave to collect the sounds of ghost towns, and spent weeks in Tokyo, Seattle, and New York City recording their soundscapes. He loves curating and designing interesting sounds and presenting them in a way that emphasizes the art, the content.

A lot of the time people think they won't notice the sound design, but they definitely notice when it's wrong. Welcome, Jeff.

Jeff Pitts: Well, thank you so much. That's very nice of you.

Julie Harris Oliver: We also have Haim Mazar. Did I say that right?

Haim Mazar: Perfect.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. He's the composer behind a wide array of musical projects, including film scores, TV shows, commercials, and live stage productions.

His original music credits include the comedy series, Woke for Hulu, additional music for the [00:03:00] Nicholas Cage Meta Comedy, the Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent, and the Hip Hop infused score for the Netflix series Sneakerheads. Haim also scored the biopic thriller, the Iceman starring Michael Shannon, Adam Robetil's, critically acclaimed indie horror, the Taking of Deborah Logan, and action thriller, I Am Wrath, starring John Travolta and Christopher Maloney. Haim also composes and produces music for the Walt Disney theme Parks, most notably the stage show version of Moana, the upcoming Princess in the Frog retheme of Splash Mountain, and most recently, he completed the nighttime spectacular Believe Sea of Dreams for Tokyo Disney Sea.

In addition to his film scoring work, Haim an associate professor at Berkeley College of Music where he enjoys teaching film scoring classes from his Los Angeles studio. Welcome.

Haim Mazar: Thank you Julie. It's so great to be here. Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're both doing theme park rides.

Jeff Pitts: That's kind of weird, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. That's a weird coincidence.

Jeff Pitts: I didn't know that when we were filming.

Julie Harris Oliver: Alright, our first question here is, what is your first job and how did you get it? [00:04:00] Who wants to go first?

Jeff Pitts: I can go first.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Jeff?

Jeff Pitts: My first job was interning at a post studio. Post audio studio in Santa Monica. And so I was basically interning and then became a tech at the studio.

And then from there it springboarded into all this other stuff.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is that always what you wanted to do?

Jeff Pitts: This? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sound was always my interest. I mean, I wasn't, I didn't always wanna be like a composer or, , anything like that. I was like very interested in like weird sounds and like, just, that's where I, my brain gravitated towards when I was younger.

Julie Harris Oliver: So how did you know that was a job?

Jeff Pitts: I did not know that was a job. Yeah. I did not know. And so I did all of this and learned about different recording techniques and synthesis and all these things were just, just studio stuff. And then, I thought all there was was like music recording and that kind of thing.

And then I kind of like had a moment where I was like, kind of like, oh [00:05:00] my God, what am I doing? I've like spent all my life learning this and I don't know what I'm gonna do with this knowledge I have now. And then I started like looking, where can I apply all this stuff? And it was like, okay, well you can do sound for video games or you could do, , sound movies and shorts and things like that.

So I just kind of started dabbling my feet in those different things.

Julie Harris Oliver: So were you, were you into music at all or was it strictly like sound?

Jeff Pitts: No, I was into music. Yeah, for sure. But I didn't, I don't think I wanted to be, I'm not like a trained musician or anything like that. So the focus for me was more on processes and just weird unique sounds and stuff like that.

And like how to capture those.

Julie Harris Oliver: So were you nerding out on music before you were thinking about applying it to film and television? Yeah, I think's what I just heard.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. Yeah. Nerding out on even just like reading about different recording techniques or like, even just, just simple things like learning, like what is an aux, you know, all of the stuff.

I kind of like self-taught, so I didn't really go to school for [00:06:00] anything, so I just kind of like hacked my way through the entire forest, so to speak. I kind of figured everything out, so it was just kind of, um, everything just kind of came as it came and, and I learned it. So that's how I went. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then you started learning on the job. I'm thinking for the person who's out there listening who is like super sound into it

Jeff Pitts: Super sound dork, nerd.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. I wasn't gonna say those words. Yeah. But yeah.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. I mean, if you are that person, then you're a good candidate for, , working on audio post.

Julie Harris Oliver: Are there tons of, of you out there, or not so much?

Jeff Pitts: I mean, are there tons of us? I mean, I'd say that Well, yeah. I mean if you go on, you know, Facebook or anywhere, you're gonna find a whole collection of those people. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, there's a good number of people out there that are like that. And I think a lot of 'em have different, you know, I think there's, it's pretty dynamic.

Like there's some guys that spend their whole careers like recording cars and there's some guys that do editorial for podcasts or, you know, [00:07:00] and it's just like very eclectic. Mm-hmm. . So,

Julie Harris Oliver: yeah. Okay. So you can get super niche and do all the things?

Jeff Pitts: I can get super niche and do a lot of the things. , I think there's like some stuff that I've purposely not learned how to do.

Like I really have no interest in editing dialogue, so I don't really put myself out as somebody that can do that work, cuz I don't wanna do it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Duely noted. Editing this podcast myself.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. You're gonna do it .

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, fine. All right. We are sharing this podcast. That's Haim. Let's bring you in. What was your first job and how did you get it?

Haim Mazar: My first job was working as a, a composer assistant to a composer, mentor, , named John Frazelle. And I got that job right after I graduated from Berkeley College of Music, and I moved out to LA from Boston to La. This was at the end of 2008. And through a recommendation from the dean of the film scoring department at the time who I made very aware that I'm looking [00:08:00] for an assistant position kind of to get, get started and have some sort of it into the business.

And with a lot of luck and timing, I got a call from him right when I moved out to LA and he offered me to come in for an interview and I did, and I got the job and I started that same day that that was, , that was my real school of like how to work in the business and how to, how to write a film score.

And I worked with John for about two years and we did an array of projects, movies and TV shows, and, , I got to see everything, you know, kind of like, kind of like riding, driving, like a Formula One car, but you're, you're next to the driver and you get to see everything. So that was great. And then John, after that, he, after about a year or so, he was kind enough to basically recommend me for this smaller indie film. We, at the time, we were doing, I think this movie, the these two like Sony Screen Jams movie called, one was Legion, [00:09:00] another one was the Roommate, and John was just really busy and he got a call by, I think it was the assistant picture editor that was cutting this kind of smaller directed dvd. Back then they were directed DVDs.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now a DVD is, uh,

Haim Mazar: Exactly , you can look it up. . , yeah, and it was, it was like a little too small for John, and also he was like so slammed. So basically what he did is, like, he vouched for me. He said like, you know, he talked to the producers and he said like, I, I can't do it, but like I'm, I have this great guy that works with me and he's gonna do the whole score for my studio and I'm gonna oversee it and, , it's gonna be great.

You know? Then he hung up the phone and he said like, you know, if you screw it up, , you're never gonna work in this town again, buddy. So you better get this right.

Julie Harris Oliver: No pressure. No pressure.

Haim Mazar: Which, which is what? What it was kind of a passing of the baton, I guess, because John worked for a, a composer named James Newton Howard, who's like a really famous a-list, big a-list composer.

[00:10:00] And, , that's kind of how John's career started, is that there was this big movie and James couldn't do it. He was busy like doing like The Fugitive or some big movie like that, and he basically told the producers, you know, I'm gonna write the theme, but John here is gonna do the whole score and the feed have set up.

I'm gonna do it for free. Which, you know, it's like crazy to, to say that to guys like that for someone. But that's, so John kind of did the same thing for me and I'm very grateful for that to this day. So that was, that was my first job, you know? Wow. The, the work with John and then later on, getting my own first solo composer credit, you know, through, through, basically through that relationship.

Julie Harris Oliver: So that referral worked out?

Haim Mazar: Yeah, definitely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. This brought up a thousand questions for me. First of all, it sounds like you studied composing for film in school.

Haim Mazar: I did.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you always know that's what you wanted to do?

Haim Mazar: I, no, I grew up playing music from a very young age, so I played piano from like age five or six, and I was classically trained and then kind of made a [00:11:00] switch to jazz.

And I grew up mostly playing this was, I, I grew up in Israel and I, I went to music school my whole life. Then eventually in Israel you gotta do, , military service. So I, I was accepted to be in a, in the, , military dance as a musical director. That was like a really great experience, kind of like, you know, being on stage all the time, doing a lot of arrangements and working with professional musicians that were like military reserves.

And after that, I got a scholarship to go to, , to Berkeley basically as a jazz piano player. And my, my whole passion was about being on stage and playing jazz.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're gonna be performer.

Haim Mazar: As, as a performer. Yeah. And, and, , although I, I've done some arranging and a little bit of conducting and producing here and there, but I was really kind of like a keyboard piano player.

And then I got to Berkeley and I got to see like some of the worlds like finest, like top 1% talent. Mm-hmm. . And also at the end of the day, you know, it's funny cuz like jazz is kind of like, it's a, it's, it's, it's an American music. So, [00:12:00] and as an Israeli I bring to jazz a lot of, a lot of fusion, a lot of, a lot of things that are maybe more unique, but in the core of it, swing and playing jazz it just, you know, at least for me, when I saw people who, like for example, if you grew up going to, going to church and playing church music, your swing and your field's gonna be a whole lot different than someone like me who grew up in Israel. . So for various reasons, and also just seeing like unbelievable musicians and also the, the music business changing.

I, I kind of gave up trying to be a performer and al, almost like at the same time when I was working at the library, this book about film scoring filled in my lap and I read about, you know, John Williams and Steven Spielberg work together and how you can utilize a whole symphony orchestra in the, in the, in the score.

And, , there was kinda like a eureka moment and I went and got, you know, my major declared as film scoring kind of like the next day. And that was the beginning of the journey. So that, that was the first time I like realized what this whole [00:13:00] thing film scoring thing, gig is.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like it all kind of came together.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was like from that moment I was like, that's what I wanna do. Anything related to that.

Julie Harris Oliver: So when you're assisting someone on a film, what parts are you doing? Are you arranging, are you recording yourself? Are you getting to compose pieces of it? Are you taking the theme and doing variations? Like what is, what do you do?

Haim Mazar: A little bit of all those things that you, you just mentioned. Uh, it, it really depends on the, , position and there's no one alike. It, it depends on who you work for and, and what their needs are. But yes, I mean, , usually you kind of start doing, kinda helping around the studio and answering phone calls and-

Julie Harris Oliver: Day one, get coffee.

Haim Mazar: Yeah, exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Day two, add violin to this score.

Haim Mazar: Kind of, I mean, it can happen really quickly. It also depends on your skills and how many other assistants work in that, you know, facility. So I think like with any, any assistant position, you know, you, there's a relationship there and, , first of all, you have to be, I think in anything, you know, I'm sure same in your field, Jeff.[00:14:00]

You gotta be a nice person. You gotta be somebody that is, that people enjoy hanging out with. And, , that's kind of like the, the start of it. And if that's right. And then you, the other thing is to gain the other person's trust. The partner's trust. , and if you do that, then they are gonna give you more and more responsibilities.

And also the, the way I looked at it working for John, it was like, I wanna help your business, so to speak, succeed, you know? Cause I think that your success will be my success because if I'm gonna be, if you're gonna be successful, I'm probably gonna get a little bit more opportunities and-

Julie Harris Oliver: Help me help you.

Haim Mazar: Help you. Exactly. So, you know, it's, it's, it's this kind of a, a kind of a, a whole inclusive approach and really diving into the gig. And I wasn't doing any other jobs when I was working with him either. So, yeah. That, that's, , that helps looking at it as a long-term opportunity as opposed to like, oh, I just want to like work, you know, with this guy for a month and get the credit and leave.

Yeah. , cuz cuz there's you, you have to learn how people work and how you know, and how, how, how they [00:15:00] like everything done. And that there's a long learning curve basically. So when you take on an assistant position, you, if you come to it, okay and kind of letting, letting the person know that, hey, I'm okay working for you for the next 2, 3, 4, 5 years even.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like it's an apprenticeship.

Haim Mazar: Exactly. Yeah. You know, and you, and that, that, that becomes your school and how you, how you learn, you learn how to do things from that what, what to do, what not to do also. So yeah, it's a very interesting experience to go through.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. And when you're first starting out, you really need to like throw yourself into the opportunities that are given.

Yeah. And you know, you might say to yourself, ah, this isn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to be, you know, over here doing this thing. But, , there's time for that.

Julie Harris Oliver: This is when you get to that thing.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, exactly. You, the fact that you even got an opportunity is that's like, you're already, you're already one out of 10.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's a first miracle.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Haim Mazar: Totally.

Jeff Pitts: It's a first miracle. Yeah. Yeah. So, so don't squander that because the next one might not happen. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's talk about Gray Matter now. So knowing [00:16:00] Meko was coming out of, you know, shorts and kind of out of where she had done everything herself Right. Or had a very clear vision. We're pouring the wine, we are settling in here. And knowing she didn't always like have a team, you know, to do the sound and the composing and all the pieces. I'm curious how, I'm assuming I'm making this up now as I'm talking, but that you read the script. And you start to hear what you think is important or you start designing your head around it.

Yeah. A is that true? What does that look sound like? And then how do you kind of present that to the director? I'm gonna ask you the same question in a minute Haim, so you get a minute to think about it.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. The, well, you know, reading scripts is like a pretty important part of the gig that I didn't really realize was gonna be a big important part of the gig.

So there's really two things that I want to come up with when I read a script. One is, are there any unique props in the script that I need to record? Either sequestering that specific prop [00:17:00] from the set, or maybe finding it and recording it myself.

Julie Harris Oliver: For example.

Jeff Pitts: So on death note, there was a lot of, like thematically in the movie, there's this book, right?

And that book had, it was integral to the film. You'd write in it and people die and stuff like that. So in my mind, an integral part of the design was to use paper. So either tearing it or ripping it or doing, you know, doing things like that with, with paper and then to springboard off that, I was like, oh, not just any paper, let's go get handmade Japanese paper.

Julie Harris Oliver: As you do.

Jeff Pitts: As you would, yeah. So then I went to, which is cool to be in LA cuz there's like a place, I think it's in Santa Monica, it's like right next to like all the train tracks and stuff down there, and they have like a bunch of handmade Japanese paper. So I went down there and you like got all that and then I was able to record all that stuff and I'm like flapping it and tearing it. And some like cloth really, cuz it's like so like thick and you know.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you're reading it thinking, what does that book sound like? [00:18:00] Right?

Jeff Pitts: Right. So you go, okay, that book is gonna be a critical item. And I think I did get that. Did I get the book in that I might have gotten that specific book to record.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like opening shredding .

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Things you wouldn't even think about watching a movie.

Jeff Pitts: No. And nor should you, you're you're watching a movie, so-

Julie Harris Oliver: If you're doing it right, you're not thinking about it.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. You don't, you don't need to think about that. It should just be done. So that's one aspect of it is like these, and I guess I kind of tied the two together in there.

But, and then the other aspect is to say like, so like, like to roll it back to Gray Matter real quick. When I read the script for Gray Matter. There was really nothing in there that I was like, oh, that prop needs to be recorded, because there's nothing, there's nothing about what that is. But the secondary ideas are like, just, just concepts that you might think of by reading the script.

So for instance, with like Gray Matter, there's like a part in the script, in the pool-

Haim Mazar: Spoilers!

Jeff Pitts: When you know everything's falling apart. And I remember like a line in the script that was [00:19:00] like something about, oh, this thing is coming up through, or, or whatever. So my ideas were kind of like springboarding off the idea that like they're all using these psychic powers, but like there might be something else there that's kind of like, not everybody even knows what that is. It's just kind of like, like a, a larger power than what any of them are using. They're just like playing around with this thing that's like, that's like serious and I like stuff like that.

So that actually helped springboard some of my design work, cuz I was, I was doing the design work thinking like, okay, there's this like entity, this entity being thing that's like, yeah, keep using it. Like we're getting closer, you know, like, The, the idea that like everybody in the movie is like messing around with a thing, they just come in and just like swallow the planet.

You know, like, like that's where my brain tends to go with that kind of stuff.

Julie Harris Oliver: So are you foreshadowing that with like little bits of that sound early on?

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, so there's like design stuff I [00:20:00] did in the film that's kind of like whispery and kind of like, you know, whatever. And , and that's all based on my ideas of having this, like, this being that they're all oblivious to. That's like trying to push through and like find their way through. By them using their psychic energy. This thing is now getting closer to where it wants to be, which is on this side. So Gray Matter two, I don't know. Yeah. But-

Julie Harris Oliver: So then you go to Meko and say, Hey, I have this idea?

Jeff Pitts: Well, no, not so much like that idea. I mean, I definitely did bring that up to her and she called me a nerd, but and I did-

Julie Harris Oliver: I'll take it. Thank you.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. But it worked, you know? Yeah. It was in, it was in the movie. So, yeah. I mean, it's, it's on a project like this, you know, you read the script and then really you're gonna start working. You do bring those ideas in, in a meeting.

Like, you know, you'd have a spotting session or something like that, and you'd say, Hey, I would think, this would be a cool idea, or whatever, you know, like for instance, with all the magic moving hands and things like that, like the sound, [00:21:00] I knew that the sound for that stuff had to be, feel solid, you know what I'm saying?

It couldn't feel ethereal. It had to feel like, like, like a ball, almost like a thing. Because it's like knocking people around the room and stuff, and it's like, you don't want it to. You know,

Julie Harris Oliver: So it has some weight.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. You want the, you want the sound to feel like, oh my God, what is that? You know? And so that was another idea that I got from reading the script. I was like, can't just be a bunch of people waving their hands and Harry Potter stuff flying, you know, can't do that. You know?

Julie Harris Oliver: Is there some time travel in it too?

Haim Mazar: Well, so there's like teleportation.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, that's what I'm thinking of.

Haim Mazar: So there's teleportation.

Jeff Pitts: Teleportation.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you for teleportation. I haven't seen the movie, just so you know.

Jeff Pitts: That's fine.

Julie Harris Oliver: Was there a specific sound for that?

Jeff Pitts: Oh yeah, for sure. There's like a kind of a tremallo kind of thing, but again, forceful, cause I wanted it to feel like this is physical stuff, but underneath all of these, like, there's like a couple physical things.

So there's like people throwing people across the room or whatever, like. And then there's the, [00:22:00] teleportation. And for both those sounds, I wanted it to feel solid. And then there's the other sounds too, which is just like, you know, the surrealness that's pushing in on them. And for that stuff I wanted it to feel like, you know, Kafu is about to push through or whatever.

Julie Harris Oliver: How are you making these sounds?

Jeff Pitts: How am I making them? Well that's a great question.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is that the secret magic?

Jeff Pitts: It's not secret.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, are you doing it on at keyboard? Are you doing foley? Are you throwing stuff against a wall?

Jeff Pitts: Yes. Yeah. Like all of those things are true. So you're either recording sounds, you are manipulating, sounds that you've previously recorded or that are pulled from libraries even. And so, you know, for stuff like, I mean, I like to design stuff to picture, so I'll set up processes and then manipulate those processes against the picture. Some people like to just like, they get a cool process going and then they just go hog wild with it and they just make a bunch of-

Julie Harris Oliver: Why d you call it a process?

Jeff Pitts: So like a process with anything. So if you're, if you're designing a sound, let's say that you [00:23:00] are designing, like when I did Blair Witch, I used the kema to, to make the voice of the, of the witch who was transforming into a tree. So I did, I took the kema, which is a sound design DSP box, and I resynthesized a female scream and wood creaking.

And then I started to morph those things together. So they were like, it's, you know, doing this weird stop. But I put all that stuff on an x y controller so I could do it against picture. So I'm like manipulating how this stuff is like changing, but I'm watching, I'm watching real frames, right. While I do it.

So that tends to be like how I enjoy working. So like with this movie, you know, if somebody's like blasting somebody with their telekinesis powers. I am designing that sound in that moment right there. And so, like, that's, a mixture of different processes. , you know, so there's only so many processes you can do.

You know, you can either, add reverb to things, you can reverse that reverb. You can do delays, you can do [00:24:00] compression, equalization, pitch shifting. These are basically delays. This is like basic, basically everything is this kind of stuff. So if you have all that kind of stuff happening, what's your, what are your input sounds?

How do those things interact with all those other things? What is the chain of events? You know, are you compressing all the sound after you do it? You know, it's like with the teleport sound as a really good like tremallo effect, which is like, like that kind of thing. But then I smashed it with compression so that it was like still dipping.

You preserve that, but you're getting like some, some grit and some compression at the top levels of the sound.

Julie Harris Oliver: This is so interesting. Gosh. So when you start a project and you start with the script, how do you approach it?

Haim Mazar: So I think there's a difference between re, reacting, , to the script and reacting to what's actually filmed and what the end, end result was.

Oh, yeah, good for you. So that, that's like a lot of times I'll read the script. It, it's kind of nice to do both. to be honest. But [00:25:00] a lot of times what's on the script is not what's, what they actually filmed and what they filmed is not necessarily what is gonna be put together in the edit. So, I, I try, I, I get, I do whatever I can get my hands on, so, and, they did send me the script for Gray Matter, which I read.

And, my, you know, the, the first thing you do, obviously when I read it, I do do think about music and I, and sometimes music will be referenced in script itself. Sometimes it won't. But either way I try to get a sense of, you know, what, what's the style and what's the mood? And, you know, I think here was pretty clear what was kind of like a moody sci-fi kind of dark ambient score.

And then I start thinking about, start thinking about what, how can I interpret some of the ideas in the movie into, into musical terms that would make sense, and I will talk about that with the director. Sometimes I'll think about it before I bring up ideas, but I, I do try to find some sort of a [00:26:00] connection. So there's a concept behind what the music is, and it's not just, you know, just like, I sometimes you watch a movie and it'll literally just have, you know, you see the Netflix description, it'll say ominous music, you know? Yeah. You see the subtitles. So it's, you, you can, you can do that and, and it'll, it'll work.

It'll get the job done, but I think it's nicer to look for a little bit more depth than have to find a connection between like what you hear and what is happening in the show. You know, right now I'm watching, this is unrelated, but I'm watching a show that I'm sure you guys all know, it's called The White Lotus on HBO.

Yeah. Yeah. And the White Lotus score is so fantastic because they incorporate human animals and jungle sounds, you know, literally like monkey sounds into the music and they make it feel like this jungle adventure, almost like the music that they use in, in Survivor, the reality show and what that does, it, it, it makes the show feel like it's.

These characters are almost like, you know, like baboons [00:27:00] and monkeys and you know, it, it almost makes fun of the characters. And the reason they do that is because of the ideas behind of what's in the show. Or, you know, like a lot of the guys will act like a monkey when it comes to sex or you know, like these rich people might be, you know, they might have a lot of money and they, they're in these fancy places, but this is all very primal.

So I tried to do the same thing on basically everything that I worked on. So on Gray Matter, this is a movie about like regular people that somehow got super power, supernatural powers, and how can I put that into music? So I started thinking with my buddy Chris Lane, who does a lot of sound design, score sound design, similar to what Jeff does, but in a more musical manner, I would say.

How do we make that into, , into musical terms? And we, we thought of this idea of like, okay, what can we, like, play instruments that will make them sound like superhumans play them or like, what's a superhuman [00:28:00] use of like a cello? And we came up with two techniques. One is this thing called Jetta where you play the bow and instead of like stroking the bow from left to right, you on, on a violin or on a cello, you take it and you bounce it and then the bouncing effect makes it hit like three or two times, instead of vroom.

And that bouncing effect, if you capture that and you slow it down, It almost has these qualities of like, you know, it's half human, half suspended and it has this like feel of like, almost like it's using gravity to create sound. It's hard to explain it, but that sound is all over the movie. And another thing we did is we took this thing called E-bow.

It's an electric bow and it's like a magnet that you can put on a banjo or, or any string instrument, and it causes the string to vibrate using magnets. So it's kind of like this, like the, we were looking at what will make things move in a way where like it's not human touch moving them. Cuz in the movie you, you know, spoiler alerts, [00:29:00] you gonna, you, the characters might reach their hands forward and do this, you know, this gesture of like, they're shooting power out of their hands and then something will move.

So what can I do with the music to reinforce that feeling and to, you know, further take the viewer into like basically movie magic all done in a very subconscious way. This is not something that meant to be like, oh, you know, that weird. And also I gotta be careful not to compete with what the sound design is.

So that's something that I, early on from the script, I was already kind of starting to think like, what can I do to represent those ideas in music.

Julie Harris Oliver: So let's talk about how, how you mesh these two things together. Cuz you're saying you don't wanna step on the sound design and you're designing sound before you've heard the score. Right? So how do you-

Haim Mazar: I was nice enough to send him an email before and I was like, Hey dude, here's-

Julie Harris Oliver: Like, what if you had totally different concepts for what that magic sounds like?

Haim Mazar: That can happen. That

Jeff Pitts: can happen can very much happen. But I think that we like the, the thing is, is like when I started working, it is like way before when you guys started [00:30:00] working, like the composers always start like late, like it's like crazy how late you guys are going.

Yeah. Um, so-

Haim Mazar: We got four, I had four weeks to do the whole score.

Jeff Pitts: Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. We're gonna double down on that cuz that's crazy.

Jeff Pitts: And I think I had eight weeks, so I mean, which is still pretty fast. You know, I had four more weeks, but I think at some point I sent you a two track and then you sent me the music.

Yeah. When I work, and this is good for everybody, the 10 music is pretty good indication of what they kind of want. You know, like you'll, you'll know from the temp music if there's a silent moment, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: And is, is the editor putting in the temp music?

Jeff Pitts: Editor's gonna put in the temp music. Okay. With the director. They do it together. But you know, even if like, thematically the music is changing when there's no music, there's probably not gonna be music again there. So in those moments, you really want to focus on, you know, your background sound effects and like things that are gonna become more important in those moments.

Um, and then when you [00:31:00] start working in like, big action scenes and stuff like that, I think that there's like certain rules that kind of people tend to follow with, like, using drums in a certain spot, or maybe not using drums if there's a bunch of guns. And like, you know, these kinds of things are, all rules are meant to be broken, but these things kind of exist.

So if you, I'm always working against the music if I can get it. If I can't get it, I'm always working against the temp music gives me an idea, a map of where things are gonna be. .

Haim Mazar: And I think also sound design focuses more on non-musical, and, and this is a big word pitched, non pitched sound. So the sounds that he'll put in are not necessarily gonna sound like a musical element or the sounded output.

I might put in like what we call this a drone. It's basically a low bed of me, of ambient rumble like, and that will have a certain pitch to it. And that's the sort of element where, where if he's gonna put a drone, it'll be more like a airy drone. [00:32:00] That doesn't have a specific pitch to it, so that's not gonna mess with whatever I'm doing.

And that's a big rule that at least I try to follow or that I expect the sound design team to follow to not put too many musical elements and drone like ambient in their, in their sound design. but there are situations where, because

Julie Harris Oliver: Sometimes you're gonna have pitch in your-

Haim Mazar: He will. Yeah. We had a big sequence where there was a, an alarm going off towards the end of the film. Yeah. And it's in a certain pitch. And I have a lot of action music kind of covering that whole sequence. So there was a big one where, where it was like, you know, I would love to get that from you and hear what the sound of the alarm is. And I did eventually and, and you know, I think I did some tweaks or sometimes you put, you know, against each other.

It's like, wow, I did not expect that to. It's in this crazy key, but it's like it where his alarm might be an F sharp and I'm in C. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you could choose either to adjust your alarm so that it is in the same key? Or to have it [00:33:00] not be?

Haim Mazar: I can adjust my music to whatever he's doing. So, or it might, it might be on the stage.

Jeff Pitts: It might be weird. So it might sound weird because it's out. Yeah. Yeah. That might be cool. Exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like on purpose.

Haim Mazar: You know, it doesn't, it's kind of nice and you leave this room of like, you know, there's always an element. I, I try to show up to the dub at least once to just kind of like, Hey, what, what did all this ended up sounding like?

And oh, that's good. There's a lot of surprise there. You know, like, whoa, you know, they added all this rumble or like they added this, whatever, whatever the case may be. It, it, it's, it's, it's nice when, like if, cuz he, when, when, when people who have experience doing this, then he takes all of the those things into my, into consideration.

He already plans for some of that unexpected stuff. So you wanna leave a little bit of this like, um, you know, almost like element of surprise in, in it. Um, it's really exciting and you hear, and just like he, Jeff said it, it's fun when it's, it wasn't meant to be, but it's kinda like, oh, that's kind of weird how that's like not in the same key. And it's like, well that's a-

Julie Harris Oliver: But it works.

Jeff Pitts: It works. I think in that, in that [00:34:00] specific case, we were kind of like in key

Haim Mazar: In that case we were, yeah. Because there was no time and we didn't want to be in a situation where we, we get to the stage and Meko and Byron are watching, or whoever watching was like, doesn't sound good guys.

Jeff Pitts: You know, . Right. So,

yeah. But I, I think, you know, this all brings up an important point, which is that you can never become too attached to your work because ultimately you're trying to make it so that the, the, the picture is elevated. Yeah. And so you cannot get too protective of things. And I always say, you know, I should just call it killing babies , because like, you know, it could, it could be something that's really endearing to you, and that you worked a lot of time on, but if it's not working in the picture, then it's gotta go.

Yeah. And you have to, you have to accept that. You have to be able to, yeah. It can be painful, but that's okay cuz this, this is part of the process.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's gonna be better.

Jeff Pitts: It, the whole thing's gonna be better in the end.

Haim Mazar: And it's a collaborative effort.

Jeff Pitts: Absolutely. Yeah. Everybody's working together for the same goal. And so if [00:35:00] you, you know, if you've presented your work as you intended it to be, and parts of that need to go away, it doesn't mean that. All your work is gone. It just means that, that in that moment, that's gone. And that's gonna take, I mean it maybe it's maturity. Um, but if, if you can have that early on where you're not defensive about your work or if somebody's giving you notes about your work and you get, do not get defensive because they're not giving you note. There has to be a free flow of that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Not a bad person.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, it's-

Haim Mazar: Never personal. That's what I learned. You know, leave your ego and it's never personal. It's, it's really about, if somebody doesn't like what you did, it's not because he doesn't like you and your sensibility and how you put it together. He just doesn't like that one thing that sound or that piece of music works with what he's trying to make in a movie.

And he might not know how to explain, or she might not know it. I explain herself, but it's not personal to you. But it, it can feel personal. Yeah. If you stayed up all night and you poured your heart and soul into it and you really believe [00:36:00] that it's right. You might take it as a personal criticism, but it's, it's really, really not.

And if, and I guess that's maturity too, you know? Yeah. Like, and remembering that and be secure enough about yourself and your skills, that if somebody doesn't like it, it's fine. You know that that's all it is.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, you put, you know, 10 different artists on a project.

Jeff Pitts: Right? And then you have, you can have a row of producers that are all gonna like, come in at the last minute and they're gonna be like, nah, like, like everybody's worked on that in this, in the room. Everybody's been working on it for like three hours and they're coming with a note that like kind of unravels what everybody's already been like. Okay. Yeah. Well, we like. You know, and so you have to be able to, you have to be able to absorb those notes.

You might not change everything about that moment because one producer said something, but you have to be able to be like, okay, what did that person say? What do they mean by what they're saying? And then how do you, how do we address that note?

Julie Harris Oliver: Without spinning out?

Haim Mazar: Yeah. A lot of times it'll actually [00:37:00] make the end result better. But you, you totally have to like run it through this filter and interpret what does this note mean? Who gave the note? Why did he give the note? Whether you agree with it or not, you have to-

Julie Harris Oliver: You may have an emotional response.

Haim Mazar: Oh, you will have an emotional response. You'll be like, oh yeah, this, and he doesn't what he's talking about. Or Here we go again. Yeah. And at some point you do. who, you know, who gives what kind of notes and to take them literally or not, or, and you know, where they are also in the, in the, I guess in the hierarchy of, of the film and you Yeah, it's a combination of a lot of things. It's, but you definitely have to like analyze the note and it would be helpful for you to analyze the order to understand what, what people are saying, because most people are in that situation, if they're producing a film or directing a film or cutting a film, they probably are pretty good at what they do, or at least they've proved themselves and they have some experience and they probably beat somebody else to get to that position. So if they're giving you a [00:38:00] note, you know, even if they're not sound or not musician-

Julie Harris Oliver: They might know something.

Haim Mazar: They probably know something. So it's a little arrogant, I think, to dismiss it and to, you know.

Jeff Pitts: You, you should be open to it.

Haim Mazar: You should be open to it. And like I said, it, it, it could very well be that it'll result in a better, in a better product or like a, a better moment into film if you take that into consideration.

Jeff Pitts: It, a lot of this is about listening to people and, and understanding what they want. If you have a meeting with a director and the director's telling you that these things are important to them, then you should try to achieve those things and try, maybe try to achieve them. Break through what they even are saying.

Maybe you have ideas that are like, oh, you like that? What if we did this too? And they Oh yeah, that's great. Because it's, you're, you're taking their ideas and you're expanding on those, you're making them bigger than, than what they initially said. So-

Julie Harris Oliver: You're yes-anding it.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. But you would never be able to do that if you were just like, I'm not, listen, I'm gonna do what I want to do on this. I'm not listening to any guide [00:39:00] tracks. I'm not doing anything. I'm just going to. Cut.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can you imagine?

Jeff Pitts: Oh yeah, definitely. I can definitely imagine that.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're like, I lived it. Okay, let's talk about the schedule for a minute cuz you had eight weeks, you had four weeks. The pressure to create under those circumstances.

And also I've heard it was a very tight budget. Like, I don't know, were you hiring an orchestra? Like, let's talk a bit about what kind of constraints, what kind of choices and how you, how you had to do all that quickly.

Haim Mazar: So starting with the schedule, which affects the budget, usually film composer will get like four to eight or twelve weeks to do a, a full score.

For me personally, the, the short period of time makes me kind of freak out, but that also sparks a lot of creativity and I, I do well under pressure, so I use it to my advantage and I kind of, it just kind of gives the whole thing a, you know, an energy.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like you trust it's gonna come.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. Yeah. I have to, and then I just kind of go for a month and I'm [00:40:00] fully in, you know, invested in it. And it's like anything in that month or whatever amount of time I have, like anything goes. And I also have a very supportive family that, you know, understands that. And then lets me-

Julie Harris Oliver: We're not gonna talk to you for a month.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. So I, I just embrace it instead of being scared about it. I, I just embrace it. And then, um, the budget is affected because, like, like you said, a lot of times we'll hire an orchestra, but when this, that was kind of one of the first things that, you know, we, we knew that there's not a lot of budget in this, so I had to basically come up with a way of how to give the movie what it needed, like the kind of music that it needed, and use the budget and schedule constraints to not be an obstacle, but to, to be helpful. So I decided to not put any, um, any orchestra in the film because that will help me with going faster and also spend less money and take a little bit of the money that I have and invest it in putting, hiring, um, sound [00:41:00] designer, actually a score sound designer.

My, my buddy who mentioned before Chris Lane and another friend, to help me, you know, just get through the finish line, another copos named Daniel Stockdale. And that was kind of like my little army of, you know, music team going into this film. And that's how I tackled it. And I, and I tried to come up with a way that I can create, basically an electronic score that would have very few acoustic sounds.

But those acoustic sounds are only to create that, what I was talking about earlier before about the superhuman feeling. So because it's superhuman and it's not just natural, it made sense that it wouldn't be like just an acoustic score. Acoustic score happens to be more expensive than an electronic score, which worked in my favor.

So that's kind of what I, you know, how I spun it. It was like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll take that problem and use it in my favor. Um, and it, and, and it worked so that, that's how I dealt with that.

Julie Harris Oliver: What do you do first? Like, do you always have like a theme that then goes through, like, I'm [00:42:00] thinking of Schindler's List. You know, that really famous theme, it's an easy example. Do you come up with kind of something like that, or do you not always?

Haim Mazar: It's a great question. I do try to find either a theme or, I, I, it's part of the, what the movie needs. So some movies, they, they ask for a theme they want, they, they're asking for a very melodic score, that has melody in it and a melody that you can hum back and whistle. In some movies, they're not asking for any melodies. They're more gloomy and dark and they're a little bit more minimalistic and they don't guide you in the same way and just the overall aesthetics of them. Or not calling for big melodic ideas, but what they might have is thematic sounds or sonic themes. Um, and those might be like kind of certain gestures that the music might do, or certain chords or like I mentioned before, some of those like sound design, like playing the cello in a certain way and processing it. So yes, I look for themes and I look for basically [00:43:00] colors. That's where, that's where I start.

So I, I look and I, I read the script and I watch the movie and I, and I then go and I get a bunch of colors in this, in the form of, you know, music tracks. Those could be existing tracks that I had. Or I might sit by, sit by the, my computer and synthesize a quick example using certain sounds or a harmony or whatever it may be.

And then one track might feel like the color green and one track might feel like, you know, like dijon mustard and , and I'll bring those colors back to Meko and the filmmakers. In the form of an email to listen to a bunch of music that is not to picture. So it would just be, here's a bunch of tracks.

Like look, a lot of tracks, like I'll send like 50 tracks and it's all from whatever, you know, whatever I found stuff that I had and I felt like writing something quickly, or I might even include a couple of tracks that are not mine in that process just to kind of like get in whatever I need to. I usually don't, I usually try to stick to my own stuff and then I present [00:44:00] that to them in a very kind of loose way as I, you know, what do you think about these?

And they'll usually get back to you with, I like that purple. And I like that turquoise. And then I try to think where we, where, where do you see purple and turquoise in your film? You know? And those are all things that kind of give you clues to what their sensibility and also if you were right and you know, hopefully you are right throughout this whole process.

So you keep narrowing it down until you eventually can get to a point where you write the whole, you write an example and then you think, what do you think of this music against this scene now? And hopefully they like it at that point. And if they do that, it's good to start with things that could be a theme.

So in Gray Matter, there's a relationship between, um, there's a mother, mother daughter relationship. So one of the first scenes that I tackled was that one of the big sequences when they're going through this big emotional moment, and it's like a three or four minute scene. So I compose that whole sequence and I showed that to Meko, and after she liked it, [00:45:00] I already knew. Okay, I can repurpose that theme in other spots.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then that can become a framework for it.

Haim Mazar: Exactly. Exactly. And you also explained that to the filmmakers, you know, while they watch it and or you might show it as a surprise, like, well, since you like it here, here, I took that same music and I put the, this other scene where, and it doesn't always work, but, um, that, that's kind of like at school we call it score design.

You know, like you, you are trying to put those big elements in place. Otherwise if you don't do that, you're just gonna end up with, you know, this kinda like paste, just like ra you know, just, just fillers, you know, just ominous music or whatever type of music it is, but it's not related to each other. So it's not, the music is, you want the music to tell a story.

Yeah. You want it to have, you know, to evolve and kinda take you through what's happening in the film and have a conclusion at the end and a feeling of like building and an arc to it, just like the characters do. You don't want to just. Right. I mean, you could. Yeah. And [00:46:00] because we serve as background music, it, it's tempting sometimes to just take the easy way out and just put, well, you know, whoever, it just, it's just gonna be background score at the end of the day.

Some guy watching the movie on his iPad in Montana's not going to tell, um-

Julie Harris Oliver: No offense, Montana.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. No offense, Montana, wherever, you know, like, this is San Francisco. Um, but, you know, I don't think about it like that. I think about it as like, you know, what, what's the best contribution I can give this film and what's like another layer that I can create? Um, You know, elevate this film and give, give or show and give it another, a little bit more depth and weight.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's also interesting to hear you put words to something that's impossible to describe.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. It's hard to talk about music.

Julie Harris Oliver: You did a very good job with that.

Haim Mazar: Thank you.

Jeff Pitts: The colors are good. Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you, Jeff? I think the original question was about yeah, schedule and timing and budget and how do you approach it? What do you do?

Jeff Pitts: For my work, well, [00:47:00] first thing I do is I send everything to the dialogue editor and the Foley team and let them get the work. And then we get like the whole, the whole nuts and the bolts of everything is you have all the dialogue that you get off the set.

You have to break all that out and take a look at it and make sure that you're in good shape. And then what isn't good needs to have some ADR done to it, either to add syllables into or, um, maybe even just taking another take of that same, line and just putting that word in there. There's a, there's a million ways to handle that, but you know, somebody's gotta go through and do all that stuff.

And that's our dialogue team that does that. And then also you have to send it off to Foley. And Foley does all of the, like every time they touch each other's hands or they footsteps, every footstep that they do, they're doing like a cloth track. So it's like they'll do that. Like the, the whole movie is like-

Julie Harris Oliver: You have to remember not to cut that out.

Jeff Pitts: Cause normally don't cut that out. Yeah, [00:48:00] no, that's, that's in there. We need that for the purpose. We need that for the m and e. Um, so you have all that stuff done. You got cop belts, you have, you know, it's just everything.

The detail is all putting the glass down on a glass table. It's like, you know, there's a lot of that kind of stuff. So you get all that out to those guys and then, you know, when it comes time to actually like cutting the movie. I know that I have these like big scenes to do, but what I'll do is I'll cut. I usually just go linear, so I'll just start at the top of the film and I'll just start to work my way through the film.

Now this was a little bit weird because this film, spoilers, has things that happened at the beginning of the film that also come back in the middle and at the end and all this stuff. So like when I cut the beginning of the movie, I was just kinda like, you know what I'm, I'm a like, there's some big moments that include this stuff, so I'm just gonna like put in a little bit of stuff here and then not really, not really play it so hard, but some of the stuff I wanted to do, was, I wanted to create tells in these scenes that we flashback to. So, you know, like the cops they call, um, additional cop backup. So I have [00:49:00] sirens starting in the distance and kind of coming in and I thought that was a good thing where like that, that kind of thing repeated each time the flashback happened.

Haim Mazar: So this is an element that is not in the dialogue, but you're adding a little bit of like backup. Yeah.

Jeff Pitts: No, they, they call for backup in the movie,

Haim Mazar: but you see their lips moving.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah. He calls for backup.

Julie Harris Oliver: But you hear the sirens like a mile away.

Jeff Pitts: But then I start the siren, so he calls back up. And then, you know, wait a beat and then start sirens off the distance and have the sirens coming in. And then it's like, okay, so now we've played these sirens coming in like this and then like, here's another part of the movie and it's the same sequence and then the sirens are coming in again. And the, the sirens are cool too, cuz they kinda like built to the end of the scene and it's a kind of a good thing cuz you can kind of have that happening and then there's a helicopter starting to come around.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, is that in the script?

Jeff Pitts: No.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay.

Jeff Pitts: Just add it and just do it.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. So you added a helicopter off, off camera, which causes the whole situation to feel a lot more [00:50:00] dangerous.

Jeff Pitts: Right. Because there's like, um, more pressure for them to get out of that situation that they're in.

Julie Harris Oliver: Just ramp it up.

Haim Mazar: Without even realizing you're like, oh, you know, this is some GTA, five star.

Jeff Pitts: Five star criminal. Um, so, you know, In those situations. Like, so I built that part first cuz it worked to build that to the, to the end of that scene because that was a big thing for the scene. But things like the gunshots in the scene didn't really matter in that moment.

Cause you didn't really, they weren't presented in that first flash in that first moment. But as the flashbacks come back, now the gunshots matter a lot. And then you've already built what that siren is supposed to be. So it's almost like you don't wanna actually change that siren. You want that siren to be the same because of the way the, the movie works.

If you did that like in a regular movie where you're like, oh, okay. The cops are coming. I'm gonna grab all these sirens I did and slap it here. Oh look, the cops are coming again. I'm gonna grab all my siren and like you get yelled at, because you made the exact, you put the exact same sounds in and then it sounds like [00:51:00] you're just triggering sound effects.

Anytime your movie sound, anytime you sound like you're just taking a sound effect and placing it. Yeah. That's not gonna be, yeah, it's not gonna be right. Even if you are just placing sound. You had to make those things feel like they are in the world, you know? Yeah. This cannot be like a random thing that happens right there.

So, you know, I, I will start to just work linearly through the film and then I'll get to them. You know, the first moment I think was like, um, she's teaching her daughter about using telekinesis to hold the box up, so that has a sound to it. And then there's, and then she uses the telekinesis on the daughter to knock her down cause she was back talking her or something like that.

So there's a little bit of like, you know, parental, abuse going on in this film. So trigger warning on that. But you know, like, so in that moment, okay, now I have to start thinking about a process that I'm going to be able to develop so I don't have a sound effect. So I'm not making a sound that's like, oh, lemme go find a sound effect in the library and I'll put it here for the, for the telekinesis sound.

Because then what [00:52:00] happens is you have that sound and now you have to, you have to copy that and go put, oh, she's using her effect again. Let me go copy that exact sound over here. And copy it again over here and it's gonna not sound good. What you wanna do is you wanna create something that feels organic so that you, you have control over what it's, what it's doing in the movie.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is this where you would create a process to do it?

Jeff Pitts: That's where I would, that's, part of my work flow.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then you do the process later, but a little different?

Jeff Pitts: That's right. So I would automate parameters of that process so that they're happening. And it's gonna happen this way this time, and then it's, and next time it's gonna happen a different way and things like that.

So that you're creating an organic process that is gonna feel natural. Right. Hope so.

Julie Harris Oliver: But it's recognizable as that's the telekinesis.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, exactly. There's not gonna be a question that, it's not the telekinesis thing, but each time it happens, it doesn't, it feels different. Yeah. Slightly. It's always gonna be different, you know, so that's the, that's the thing you have to work on.

That's the thing you have to do. Like, if you're cutting like a car chase, you know, you're gonna have all these engines and, and tire squeals and all this [00:53:00] kind of stuff. But like, if you always look, let's say that there's like, every time you go to the hero's car and you have him in and it's like, and it's like cut inside the car and you're inside the car for 20 frames, and then every time you go back to him, if you have the exact same accelerator sound, I mean, you fail. You're, you're like, that's no. Like things have to just, no. Things have to feel like they're like, they're real. Yeah. You know.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, you know what, were, were either of you on mic and on camera for the reality show?

Haim Mazar: I was for a little bit in the beginning. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: How, how was that? How was it working like that?

Haim Mazar: That was fun. Oh, you liked it? Yeah, I did. I hope it makes it into the show. I, so I did my interview with Meko and the, and, and the, the producers on Zoom. A recorded zoom wasn't my first interview on Zoom, but the fact that it was recorded was kind of end. To think that it can be aired on television kind of makes it a little different.

And then the, I went to visit the cutting room at some [00:54:00] point and presented some music. Actually, that was the first time I played them any music, I think was in the cutting. room And, uh, that was filmed. So they, they mic'd me up and I went into, um, I met Meko and, and Byron, and gave a fake TV hug. No, I gave her a real hug and then they're like, whoa, we didn't mic you up.

Can you do it again? And then I gave her a fake hug. And then, and then, yeah, and then the rest of it was actually filmed in real time and that was fine. There. Three, there was a cameraman in the room. And-

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you feel like you had to watch what you said or were you just doing your thing?

Haim Mazar: After two, three minutes, no, I mean, I always, you are, at least for me, taking a meeting is a, can be an exhausting thing, you know? Cuz you kind of like, you naturally watch what you're saying and you're very focused. So, but no, I, it didn't, it didn't make it, you know, you forget about the cameras very quickly. It's what I felt like.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So it's fine. Jeff, are you on camera at all?

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, I did. Um, a spot, well I think I had some, some Zoom [00:55:00] meetings that I just now remembered were recorded, so I have no idea what happened in those. So I had those that happened and then I went in for spotting, , with Meko and Byron, and that was all recorded.

But I think the film crew was like a little freaked out because those things, like a spotting of a whole movie. Eight and a half hours. So it's like they're there at the beginning, like two of 'em, plus the spot camera sitting there. And it's like, as the day went on, it was like less and less.

Haim Mazar: Like what we do is like very tedious and, you know, it just not, it's like, yeah. Just some man or a woman sitting in a dark room in front of a monitor and, you know. Yeah. Moving the mouse around just let frames go by.

Jeff Pitts: It's, I was like, oh, can you hit pause and go back and play that again? Oh, okay. Thanks. Yeah, I think we should, , maybe look at recording that line. That's, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So we won't look for you be highlighted on some episodes.

Jeff Pitts: I don't know. Well see. I have maybe, I hope, I hope we'll make, they did an exit, an interview with [00:56:00] me, which is a bit weird because it's like after eight and a half hours of like, I'm like, exhausted. Yeah. And then they're like, do this exit interview. And I'm like, ah, really?

Julie Harris Oliver: Was there anything that either one of you presented to Meko where she was like, no, that's terrible. Start over. Was there anything like that?

Haim Mazar: There was one for me, but, and I was happy because she was so nice about everything that at some point I was like, do you actually like this? Or you're just being nice?

Julie Harris Oliver: Is any of your feedback real?

Haim Mazar: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, no, there was one particular scene that she, that we were having, I had to do four options for that, I think four or five options. And we eventually nailed it. But, um, yeah, there was, there was one and she just very honest about it and, you know, as, as she should.

And, whenever that happens, I always try to have a conversation with the filmmakers that is not necessarily musical, but more like, [00:57:00] all right, I think I missed something. Because whenever I write and I put music to something, there's a story and dramatic reason behind everything that I do. So the, if I put music there, there's a reason it's gonna play from somebody's perspective.

It's gonna push a certain narrative like, oh, she's, she's feeling lonely, or she's sad, or she's thinking of this person she's in love with. So I'm gonna use the music that I, that represents that person here, or this is dangerous.

Jeff Pitts: I think that's an important thing to say, that you should have a reason for why all the stuff that you created is there.

Haim Mazar: Same with sound, you don't just put music or sound or, or an ambient drone just to be moody. You're moody for a reason.

Julie Harris Oliver: So if you've missed it or if it, if it missed-

Haim Mazar: I, I might have like-

Julie Harris Oliver: And you're like, I missed the point of this.

Haim Mazar: I'm trying, so I'm trying to understand. I, maybe I missed the point. Maybe it's a matter of just the way I played it, wasn't, wasn't it. Sometimes it's simple, as simple as like, they don't like that instrument or [00:58:00] they, you know, or I went too far with something.

Um, or sometimes what I meant to do didn't, it didn't feel like that, you know, it didn't feel scary. It felt, you know, it felt boring, whatever it is. So I try to kind of, again, analyzing the note and understand why, why did they say what they said? Did I miss something? Uh, and come to it from that place. And a lot of times what that makes the filmmakers do it, it makes them kind of think of adjectives and things that are not musical.

Because if they do try to explain themselves musically, that might be tricky. Cuz they're not professionally trained in music.

Julie Harris Oliver: They're not talking the same language.

Haim Mazar: They might say, you know, they might think, they say something musical, like it needs to have more bass. But what they really want is to have more grit to it, for example. And if I'm gonna take that note, literally, it'll just sound like it has more bass to it. Or it'll say it needs a crescendo, but it doesn't need to be louder. , you know, by volume. It just needs to feel like it's the music. Something about the music is rising or building, but it's not a, [00:59:00] it's not a dynamic thing, you know?

So I find that getting them to talk about it in, just like they would with an actor or with a cinematographer, you know, like, oh, this, you know, she feels cold and lonely or like, you know, something like that. I know how to make that work with music. So that, that's kind of how I get out of that. And sometimes it's the director don't know what they want. They're, they, they are figuring out themselves and they're realizing that-

Julie Harris Oliver: They'll know when they see it.

Haim Mazar: Some, sometimes also like the scene is just not doing it. And you're, you now have to create a feeling of loneliness when somebody is really happy, for example, you know, and, and that might make your music not sound what usual lonely music sounds like, cuz you're overcompensating something.

And maybe you have to do that just for the director to realize that, you know what, it's just not well acted. So I'm gonna choose what's best here to kind of like, accept the fact that it's not well acted or put this ridiculous overcorrection over it. And it's this, you know, you, what you [01:00:00] wanna do is keep the communication going and, and understand with them what, you know, keep keep it going and, and, and have, and come together to this realization like, okay, we're trying, we're exploring and this feels like the best way to get out of this problem.

It's, it's kind of like troubleshooting almost. When you hit those moments, what's worse is that you, what, what, what, what you don't wanna do is take it personally and make it into a fight and try to, no, but this is good. You know, this will, this fits great. You know? Yeah. You don't wanna, this is the power where you put your ego aside and you're like, this is not about you, it's about the music.

Separate the fact that you make this music. You're never gonna be able to sell your music to the director, jam it down to their throat. Like, you need to, like this, this is good. That's not gonna work. Um, so yeah. So that, that, that's what I do is I, I just kind of take a step back. And And it worked. It worked with Meko as well and she was great.

Other than that one spot I think was pretty, we were on the same page, so it made it [01:01:00] easier. Yeah.

Jeff Pitts: I don't think I had any.

Julie Harris Oliver: Just nailed it every time.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I tend to be how I worked. That's how I do it. Alright. Meko is now texting me cuz I was like, what? What did I write here? I wrote, what one thing did you hate about my work? That we had to change?

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you tell her you're on the podcast right now?

Jeff Pitts: I said at the podcast and then I get back. Hmm hmm. Emojis. There's so many. Yeah this, this huge list comes about. Yeah. That'd be awesome. After I was just like, she still, no, I edit off the park every moment. I was pretty happy with your work overall.

You as a person. However, overall. Overall my work was good. Pretty happy. All right.

Julie Harris Oliver: So it was fine.

Jeff Pitts: So, you know, on a scale of one to 10, I got a seven. All right. You know, sorry. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Favorite memory from the show?

Jeff Pitts: I work the most with people on the stage, so just all the stage time is like just super fun. Like em, embrace those moments when you're on the stage with everybody, cuz [01:02:00] it's like when everything comes together and that's when all the big decisions are made and everybody's like either happy or not. That that's the moment, that's when it's all gonna happen, because aside from that, you're just sitting in a room alone working.

Julie Harris Oliver: Making memories.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. Yeah.

Haim Mazar: My favorite memory is probably, I mean, usually my favorite memory of every project is the end. When it's all approved, that's been done, or when we're recording the orchestra. But because we didn't have an orchestra session, the other favorite movement moment that I remember was, so in one of, I think it was the first meeting that I took prior to that meeting or after, I don't remember, but I sent a bunch of music after reading the script and responding to it. I sent music, I call it like temp ideas. And I sent a folder with, here's some music. You know, I might be wrong and it might be off and I mentioned the fact in, in the meeting I mentioned the fact that I sent this music out and , I was kind of defending it because you don't want to like send music and be like, I send this music, you know, and then they don't like it.

And you're like, well, yeah, you send this music that we don't like. So I [01:03:00] always send it with a caveat and I explain it. This is just reading this script. I didn't see any, which is true. I don't know if it looks like what I'm reading, so it's probably mostly wrong. But hey, in case there were a couple of good tracks in there, let me know.

And then I kind of gave my spiel and, and Byron goes like, oh, actually everything you sent was perfect. We already have it into film , it's cut into film. We love it. it's working really well. I was like, Everything I said is exactly my vision. This is exactly what I had in mind. And of course it works,

Jeff Pitts: but that helps me cuz that means it's in the guide.

Yeah. You know, it's the guide music.

Haim Mazar: Is, it became, some of that music became the temp and it was a, it wasn't that, so, yeah. So that was a good moment. Cause it, it makes you realize that like A, you what you are thinking, what you're seeing is what, what your client is in your partner seeing. You're vibing with the vision.

And, and the other thing is that it just kind of get, gets everybody on a good start. And it also meant like, yeah, probably I'm probably gonna win this project. You know, I'm probably gonna get this project. So that was a good memory. [01:04:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: Wait, was that before you were even hired?

Haim Mazar: Yeah, that was before, yeah. Oh, they, they did this. How did your audition? Audition of sorts or? I'm not sure how they went about it, but I know they met with a few composers and, I don't know if they all set music. I did but yeah. So there we go. That was a nice moment.

Jeff Pitts: Send the music.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. There's a tip. It's a risky move.

Haim Mazar: It's a risky move, but-

Julie Harris Oliver: When it works, it works. Yeah.

Jeff Pitts: Send the music.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, now we are to our, um, typically martini shot, but obviously we're having a red wine shot. Um, oh, okay. We are. So last question of the podcast. What advice would you give to someone who is trying to do what you do?

Jeff Pitts: Say yes to everything and do the best with every opportunity given. That's, I mean, it's really that simple.

Haim Mazar: That's good. That is great advice. I don't know if I can top that. I would say so for, for like, for a film composer, I would say stay real, like stay realistic with your, with your goals and what you, what you, what you think you can achieve. What I mean by that is, um, don't try to do something that [01:05:00] is like, you can be a dreamer, but you need to do, you need to be a dreamer and allow the dreams to come true.

But if you, if you start dreaming in the wrong place or at the wrong time, your chances of those dreams come, come true or are are way smaller. So if you wanna start in the business, you probably need to either work as an assistant, kind of pay your dues and learn how to get there from someone or be realistic enough to know about yourself that you are not the type that can work under someone like that.

And you probably need to find a different way to learn and to, so that probably means that you need to create relationships with filmmakers and, people like Meko and work with them and build a relationship with. Young filmmakers so that when they get a big break, they can take you with them. Either that or develop that relationship with, , with a mentor and somebody that can show you how, how to do it and, um, [01:06:00] start developing those relationships.

Cause, because when you're doing solo film scoring work, then it's, it's really all about relationships and which directors do you know, and producers that can recommend you to future projects if you don't have the relationships. You can be the, you can be the next John Williams, but you're not gonna get any work.

Jeff Pitts: And there's probably that guy out there that would've been the next job. You know, and they didn't get it because, I mean, there's just so much.

Julie Harris Oliver: John Williams had every job.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. There's so much sweat equity in this and there's so much like you have to just work hard and you have to be talented and you have to say yes to projects and you, I mean, there's just so many-

Julie Harris Oliver: And you have to be nice.

Jeff Pitts: There's so much stuff. Yeah. You have to be a reasonable human being. Like that's, that goes back to like, don't defend your, your work. You know, beyond-

Haim Mazar: Saying yes to everything really helps though. Cause it's kind of like you, it's a no-brainer. It's like, well, I need to say yes. So I say yes, you know?

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. I mean, you'll come a, there'll come a time in your career where you can say no and you know why you're saying no. Yeah, exactly. But if you're just starting out, that is [01:07:00] not the time. Like you should be taking, saying, I don't care if it's like you're editing dialogue on cops. I don't care. It's like, you better just take, that's a tough job.

Sorry, Montana.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. That's amazing. Thank you both. This was so interesting. Jeff Pitts. Haim Mazar. Thank you for being on Catch a Break.

Jeff Pitts: Cheers. Thank you so much.

Haim Mazar: Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch A Break Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Jeff Pitts and Haim Mazar and all the guests for this season.

And special thanks to crewvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Please check out our website at catch a break podcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with Catch Light Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Jocelyn, thanks for listening.

I hope you enjoyed [01:08:00] this deep dive behind the scenes of Project Greenlight. Next season will be here before you know it. And in the meantime, I hope this helped you to catch a break.

EP 410: The Post Production Process

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch or Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media places at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. The presenting sponsor of season four of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages.

An amazing new back lot featuring a New York and LA downtown street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices along with post-production. Dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all of their clients. Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need, any budget.

Find them at santaclaritastudios.com. We are getting close to the end of our Project [00:01:00] Greenlight series, where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We're dropping new episodes every day. So if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 401.

For this penultimate episode, I sat down with Erica Djafroodi, the post supervisor, and Byron Wong, the editor. We talked about how this was different from other jobs and how it was working with the director who is also an editor. Okay, have a listen.

Welcome to Catch A Break. I'm here today with Erica Djafroodi and Byron Wong.

Erica is an Iranian Filipino American post producer with over 10 years of experience in scripted television and new media. Some of her credits include Brooklyn 99, Woke, Unprisoned and Grand Crew. And most recently Erica was the post producer on Project Greenlight's Gray Matter. Erica's also a working photographer, voiceover artist, and avid painter.

Welcome, Erica.

Erica Djafroodi: Thank you for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: See, no one is gonna be surprised that you're a voiceover artist. You can hear it loud and clear. [00:02:00]

Erica Djafroodi: That's right.

Julie Harris Oliver: Byron Wong is an editor based in Los Angeles. He began his career in post-production over 20 years ago in New York as an apprentice and assistant editor working with directors Brian De Palma on Snake Eyes and Mission to Mars with Ben Stiller on Zoolander and Tropic Thunder.

From there, he worked his way to the editor's chair cutting studio features such as The Wedding Ringer with Kevin Hart and indie features such as Thumper. His experience crosses over genres from comedy such as Netflix's Sixtuplet starring Marlon Wayans, Ideal Home with Paul Rudd and Steve Coogan, Hallmark's Under the Bed, and documentaries like Netflix's Larry Charles's Dangerous World of Comedy, and HBO's just released, Shaq.

He most recently completed the Foo Fighters' Studio 666 and HBO Max's Project Greenlight movie Gray Matter. Byron is represented by United Talent Agency. Welcome, Byron.

Byron Wong: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Julie Harris Oliver: So the first thing we do on the show is we ask you what was your first job and how did you get it?

Erica Djafroodi: Let's start with Erica.

My first [00:03:00] job was a post PA on Disney Channel's Dog with a Blog. And I, you know, my senior year of college I was studying filmmaking and I wanted to do documentary filmmaking and edit those. So I applied in my last semester to so many different jobs in San Francisco and LA and the only interview I got was for a post PA job, which I don't know.

I, I like, I have a cousin that worked on Suits and she somehow got my name in somewhere, , in Veronica Mars and stuff, but I didn't even know what she did. Um, but anyway, she got me the interview and yeah, I have been in post-production ever since then. I think that was 2022. Uh, 2012.

Julie Harris Oliver: I was gonna say this is 2022.

You had a very meteoric rise.

Erica Djafroodi: Right. Well, I was 22 in 2012. . .

Julie Harris Oliver: Perfect. Oh my gosh. Okay. Anyway, perfect. Byron, how about [00:04:00] you? What was your first job and how did you get it?

Byron Wong: I'll go with my first union job just because, , you know, I had been doing a lot of, I was working New York and I was doing a lot of PA, I was doing a lot of set PA work, you know, anything that I could just get into like getting into the industry.

And, , my first union job, I had been working as a post PA on various productions and, , my dad was an architect and he, , he worked, you know, one of his work colleagues knew a documentary editor. And so they were like, oh, maybe, you know, my friend could help Byron. And , so they got us all together and that documentary editor was, , a woman named Jean Chen, who is an extraordinary documentary filmmaker and editor. But, , she was like, she was great. She was really helpful as a mentor and, and then those early stages, and she was like, well, I know this guy, , he who works in, , the Bill Building, which is in New York post-production. That was where it was all at, you know, anyone wanted to work in, , you know, sound knew of the Bill Building.

That's where everything was [00:05:00] happening, , in terms of major post-production work in New York. And so, like, I actually been working there at the time as a post PA on, , a movie called The Boxer with Daniel Day-Lewis. Anyway, , he knew this guy, he was a sound editor named Aton Mursky. And he, he is another great guy.

And, , he was working with a sound supervisor, Maurice Shell, and they were gearing up to work on Snake Eyes. And, , they didn't have a post supervisor. , they kind of dealt directly with the studios. And so Maurice needed someone that could help with purchase orders and that kind of stuff. And that's pretty much a lot of what I was doing when I was being a post PA over on, on The Boxer. So he was like, you know, hey Byron, you know, like, yeah, like we, we had kind of met just because we were like, oh, you know, Jean said I should, you know, meet with you and you know, like. SO we kind of introduced each other that way ourselves, like, and he just knew that I was working on the, , working in the office and, , I could do purchase orders.

And he was like, well, would you like to come on board and, , we'll get you into the union as a sound [00:06:00] apprentice. And I was like, absolutely, done. And, , you know, I left The Boxer and, and joined, , Snake Eyes as a sound apprentice. And so that was my first job. They brought me into the union, which was, you know, not a, not an easy thing to do at, , in New York at that time.

And it's still kind of, it's, it's very, you know,

Julie Harris Oliver: It's never easy.

Byron Wong: Convenient. Yeah. That was my first job and I worked with them for a number of years on a number of jobs after that.

Julie Harris Oliver: So it's so interesting to me that you both started as post PAs, right? And then like that's the entry and then you can go a million different directions from there.

Erica, you went into producing and Byron, you went into editing that. That's so interesting. How did you, how'd you kind of know like that part of it was your jam or did you fall into it and realize, oh, this is a thing I'm good at, I'm gonna keep pursuing this. Erica, did you have thoughts about that?

Erica Djafroodi: You know, yeah.

I would say that getting in as a PA first on anything even, you know, it doesn't matter what department, but getting in as a PA is the first step to any [00:07:00] position. If you want to be an editor or post produce, obviously you know, a post PA gig is ideal. From there, you know, I've had PAs that wanna edit and they still start in the post PA position and kind of learn how to AE from there since it's more technical than actually being an editor.

Julie Harris Oliver: AE. Assistant Editor?

Erica Djafroodi: Assistant editor. Yes. Sorry.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you.

Erica Djafroodi: And then they get their hours to join the union if they're in union and become editors. And I originally wanted to do that, but when I got my first job on Dog with a Blog that was my, my first time seeing what TV was like.

And it's scripted television, what I'm used to. And the editor's just following a script and you know, you see the director come in, do their cut, you see the producers come in, do their cut, then the studio, the network. And by the end of it, I felt like, oh my gosh. And not to diminish anything because you get to be creative at first, but.

The end product, you know, is, is not yours. And so [00:08:00] I was like, that's not, that's not as creative as I wanna be. I'm going to stay on this side until I figure out if that is really what I wanna do. And like many people, I think, you know, you start moving up, you start getting more confidence because you learn the process so well.

And you know, I liked the producing side of it too. So Yeah. I just kinda, I just kind of stayed there. I wouldn't say that I knew it was my jam for a while. I don't, I still don't know if it's my jam, you know, .

Julie Harris Oliver: But you're good at it, is the thing.

Erica Djafroodi: Yes. And I, I don't take it for granted.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now. It's interesting to me that, that you started out in television. Byron, you're in film and now this was a film inside of a television show. So for you, Erica, we'll stay on you for a second, how is this different for you post supervising the film as opposed to a television show?

Erica Djafroodi: Oh, it was so different and this was the first time I was ever on a feature and so that's what kind of intrigued me about it.

Cause I know that the process is a little bit [00:09:00] different, but I thought, you know, we all deliver the same nowadays because most things are streaming, so I'm gonna be able to figure it out. But I would say this experience, you know, we still delivered it like it was a streaming television show and HBO Max, they, they kind of paired us with their unscripted TV department.

And so they were all used to operating kind of like a television show. So it was this weird hybrid where I felt, oh, I'm really familiar with this process, but there are still different rules in theatrical, which was a learning curve, but it was almost like delivering one long streaming episode of television, like three episodes put together or something.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like the longest episode in the world.

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah. Yeah. For this at least.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, Byron, how is it for you with, like, figuring out your relationship with Meko and how you were going to work together and also knowing that she's also an editor? Like how, how [00:10:00] was that for you?

Byron Wong: That was, , it was, it was interesting. You know, at first, , I was a little bit nervous about it.

Like, you know, she's an editor and we all, each of us have our own, you know, as an editor, a lot of times you spend a lot of time alone in your room, in front of your computer, and you have your own way of working that you're comfortable with. And, , you know, part of me is like, okay, you know, there the, you know, is she gonna be okay with the way I work?

You know, is she gonna be okay with the pace that I work at? Or is she gonna be, , , , is she gonna be, you know, wanting to just, you know, shove me over the side and say, just move and then like, you know, take over on the Avid and, , I've worked with, , producers and, and other people who, who are editors and like, sometimes that's how they'll, they'll act.

They'll just be like, no, just move it one frame over. You know, give, you know, move, move this thing mo one module over, and then, you know, or it's fine. I'll, I'll, I'll deal with that, you know, as it comes. But, , you know, Meko wasn't really like that. She, I mean, she does sometimes like have certain things that she wanted to do [00:11:00] and try.

But she was very respectful about my own processes and very, you know, my, my own way of doing things. And, , she would made me feel super comfortable and we really collaborated. And, , what I really also liked about her being, you know, former editors was that we spoke the same language. There wasn't this, , disconnect in terms in that regard.

She understood where I was coming from and she under understood, like, let's say, do you have any better reactions from this? Or, you know, let's look at them and then she'll understand, okay, here's this reaction, which is cool, but can't really use it because what's going on, like in the background is, doesn't, wouldn't match, or yeah, just wouldn't work for some other kind of reason.

So, you know, we, we, we were very in sync in that regard. And so it ended up being, I thought it worked great. I, I loved working with

Julie Harris Oliver: her.

And I, I'm curious because she's an editor, I imagine that also makes her very efficient director confirm this or not. Did it make it so that like she knew when she had all the coverage to make her more efficient that way and present you with all the things that you needed to pull it together?

Byron Wong: Well, here is where the, you know, the whole TV [00:12:00] show came, you know, into play because, you know, she is, at that point, she hadn't done anything longer than a short. So we were doing this whole feature we're, you know, it's an 18 day shoot and you got all these cameras in your face, like, just not even like behind, you're not behind the camera.

You're behind it and in front of it. Yeah. And, , you know, it's a, and, and, and you've got, , yeah, like producers and other people kind of like in her ear a lot, trying to like, make sure that she's getting the coverage that they're looking for or trying, you know, explore different options and directions.

And so she's getting, you know, it is a lot. So I think-

Julie Harris Oliver: Like so much interference.

Byron Wong: So much interference, so much, so many, like, you know, making thousands of decisions a day, you know, which is, it's something, you know, that, that, that takes practice in get getting used to. So she's thrust into this whole situation and I think she did amazingly well that said like, you know, yeah.

And she'll be the first to tell you this is that yeah, there wasn't, there, there are many instances where she didn't get enough coverage, , or the coverage that she wanted to get, but [00:13:00] just still had to move on. So I think, , you know, that was definitely some of the challenges that I think that we were getting.

That also I, I'm sure she would've loved like three more days of shooting, you know, like, , the, the time that she needed to, to really, you know, work on some of these, you know, situations with the actors would've been, you know, really helpful. Also the time and and budget to help really, you know, on the, on the post side of things like work with, , visual effects and some of the, those other issues.

It, it, there was a lot that, , we were hampered by. , but I think we still delivered a, a great film and I think she did an amazing job, you know, in, in light of all the situation. I know it's not gonna be, you know, when when you see it on the screen, you gotta judge what's on the screen. , but, , I still think you know it.

I think she did a great.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's great. You brought up two things I kind of wanna drill into. One of them was, yeah, you were on a TV show while you're doing this. So I, I know during production cameras followed people around, but did [00:14:00] they like mount cameras in your, were you on camera 24/7 while you were working?

Byron Wong: Well, while we were working, we had a minim of three cameras on. You know, we had our room, like my, my desk was on one side and, uh, Meko's was on the couch on the other side, I had a, , a camera kind of like, , right behind my computer, monitors pointed pretty much right at me. I had, , then there was a camera, let's see, pointed, you know, wide shot right at Meko.

And then, , let's see, , we had a wide camera, like next to the couch showing a wide shot. The back of my head and you know, basically me and my whole system. And then on Tuesdays and Thursdays, usually we had a cameraman in the room just panning back and forth between Meko and myself, , just trying to capturing everything.

And we had a, , a microphone in the ceiling, well recording, uh, everything as well as at, at one point we did have a, , microphone embedded in, that was [00:15:00] on the table, but I think that didn't end up working out as well as they'd hoped. But yeah, we were constantly on camera and on Tuesdays and Thursdays, even when we had the land camera, we were also mic'd up as well.

So we were wearing mic packs and , yeah, it was, , it was kind of, it was, you know, to some degrees intrusive cuz it's, it's, it was very difficult to work with somebody like looking at you as you're working and then Yeah. You know, , and then like sometimes when they're focusing on the screen or they're focus, you know, like they're focusing on their face and I'm just, , on your face and you can feel it and it's just makes you super self-conscious.

And then, you know, I'm thinking like, oh my God, are they judging me as I'm working? Every little thing, every little keystrokes like, hmm, I don't know. You know? , and you know, everybody was, all the camera people were great. All the sound people were great. I, I, you know, the producers were fine. You know, I, I love, you know, I like 'em all, you know, as, as people, but it was just very, you know, it was weird.

And I think they even knew it was weird cuz it, you [00:16:00] know, it would've been weird. And they're trying to be as discrete as possible, but yeah, there's, there's no way to, to avoid it. And like, , it wears on you.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. It seems like a constant buzz of, you know, something you're thinking about and, oh God, are they making, making something of this?

Or did I say that right? Or I just imagine

Byron Wong: Absolutely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oppressive.

Byron Wong: Absolutely, yes. And then you always kind of like second guess yourself, like, oh, I shouldn't have said that, or shouldn't have said it that way. And you kind of get worried about how these things are gonna be portrayed and, you know, we have no idea.

We, we won't know until, , you know, when the, until the show is released.

Julie Harris Oliver: Erica, how about you? Were you on camera the whole time, or every now and then? How'd it work for you?

Erica Djafroodi: It was a little different for me because the covid aspect of it all. You know, we were trying to play it safe and there wasn't really any need for me to be there every day with them.

I think that I would've just been more of a distraction. That said, all of our zooms were recorded and we did have a lot of zooms. It was a little bit hard not being there with them, only because [00:17:00] with this movie, you know, the director and the editor, they're making all of these decisions, and if you're not there, you don't really know what's going on.

And it's not like you get this daily recap. You're not watching the Project Greenlight dailies and seeing, okay, did they make these decisions, this or that? And so you kind of feel in the dark for a lot of it. And so I did feel kind of awkward on Zoom because I felt like I was discovering things on these recorded zooms that had already been discussed.

And I'm like, oh. Okay, cool. Uh, and then you kind of question like, what should I say now? Should I wait until the cameras are gone so I can ask the producers like, Hey guys, this might be an issue or this or that. You know, I wanted to, everyone was a little bit like nervous about it, and I wanted to respect the information and the, like, privacy of the actual project and everybody's time, you know?

So it definitely dictated my behavior sometimes because I didn't know what I could [00:18:00] or could not say. And then I would get nervous and I would say something silly and then laugh and be like, oh my God, don't put that, they're probably gonna make me look crazy if I'm on it at all, honestly. But, but Byron had, Byron had it all though, like he was on camera all the time and you know, there would be times where he's like, can I call you and I need to step outside?

Because we couldn't have a unrecorded conversation with, you know, like sometimes cameras would follow him and he's like, I'll talk to you about it later. So-

Julie Harris Oliver: On the way home.

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah, but it was, he got the, he got all of it, you know, I was just on Zoom, which was nice because I could still be in my sweatpants, you know?

Byron Wong: Yeah. There was, yeah, there, there was sometimes. I remember Erica, like, again, everybody, it was fairly cool, but they had their own job to do, which was to capture every little bit of drama that they could, and so, you know, they were pretty much hungry for anything, so anything that there was somewhat, you know, we, we always had to like be very aware of like, yes, they want to capture drama, but there's also stuff that [00:19:00] we need to discuss that was very personal.

Like, if we had some issues with people, you know, we didn't want that portrayed on camera because, you know, these, our people's livelihoods and these are people's, you know, jobs and we don't want to affect them negatively in any way. Cuz, you know, it certainly appears on the TV show. Yeah. You know, that's, that would be unfair to them.

So that's why, you know, like those are some of the, some of those instances and, but yeah, it got very weird a lot just cuz you know, yeah. They're, there'd be a lot of running around trying to, , evade the cameras as well though. Meko was quite masterful by that time. She had already experienced so much.

She's like, she knew exact-, she was always very conscious. She knew exactly. Okay. All, you know, taking out the mic or, you know, she, she was very on top of it. I was, I was a little bit less so because, you know, sometimes yeah, I'll forget to take out the, , turn off

Erica Djafroodi: the mic. You forget, you forget that they're there.

Which made also view reality television differently cuz I'm sure that this is not so much a reality TV show. It's more [00:20:00] like, it seems more docu-series. But yeah, they really, they really didn't script anything, you know. So like, it, it also made me view the previous seasons of Project Greenlight differently because if somebody appeared, To be kind of a jerk or a major jerk on a season of Project Greenlight.

It's like they were just really actually a jerk. Like they . They, they didn't like make him or them, excuse me, do do anything to make it more interesting, you know? That's

Julie Harris Oliver: so interesting how you were talking about it, Byron, that this isn't like Survivor, where you're doing this once and you're all going home and you're never gonna see each other again. Like you're gonna continue working with each other and having careers and you don't wanna burn it all down because you're on this television

Byron Wong: show. Absolutely. Like that is is so true cuz like, you know, especially like, you know, when we started getting notes and we're like, okay, you know, we, we sometimes you wanna be like, this is the most ridiculous note I've ever heard.

I can't believe like these people, you know, and we definitely had to, you know, temper some of our reactions. But than [00:21:00] that being said, you know, everything. I would work absolutely with anybody again, like with Hoorae, with like, you know, with CatchLight, you know, Jeanette and Yolanda, everybody, everybody was good.

It was just like, sometimes in the moment though, you'd be like, oh, that's insane. That's like ridiculous or something like that. But you know, you don't wanna say that because you know, they're okay. Yeah. That's going in the movie, the, the show and you know, that's gonna be, let's say a private moment, you know, between us suddenly gets blown up into like, , a bigger deal than it ever really was meant to be or should have been.

So, , yeah, we definitely had to do a lot of self-censoring and that's just part and parcel of it. You know, it's not like, you know, for example, when I say notes, it's like, you know, like, yeah, any note is a legitimate note because, you know, there's certain things, underlying factors behind it. You know, maybe this person said, oh, okay, can we like reduce this?

You know, can we cut this character out? It's like, okay, well you know what's not, we gotta look at what's not working in that character versus like, well, that's. Ridiculous. You know, like for which is the knee jerk reaction. So, you know that that's one of those things where you just want to be like, [00:22:00] okay, you want to take a moment, you know that you have your knee-jerk reaction, and then you kind of say, okay, take a breath and say, all right, let's, let's address this.

Let's fix it when you're on camera, you know? Yeah. They're gonna just keep that knee-jerk reaction and I'm really kind of worried about how that's gonna .

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Cause I think notes are hard anyway. Like, I think anyone's first reaction to notes are like, how dare you? And it needs a little time for you to actually hear the thing behind it.

So That's funny. So anytime I'm watching you and you're like, oh, interesting choice, like, I'm gonna read a little bit more into that now.

Byron Wong: Yes, absolutely. You'll, you'll recognize my side eye.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're like, that's his tell. He's so mad. Right. Let's talk about the, the constraints within the film itself. Cause I know it was a short post period, it was a small budget.

I think Erica, you probably had to deal with this a lot and not being in the room. Like how did that affect decisions being made? Like how many cuts you could do, how many notes you could actually incorporate how you dealt with the [00:23:00] visual effects. I know I just threw 20 questions at you, but you know what I'm getting at.

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah, it was, it was a little bit of a mess. I will say it because, you know, a lot of the crew does, , in, they do indie films and they've, you know, they've also done like, big projects, they do shorts, they do a lot of different things. Whereas I have worked in network tv, so I know kind of some of the limits, some of the rules that do seem ridiculous, like when it comes to stock footage, when it comes to a sound effect, you do.

When it comes to like the vendors you use, there are so many rules that I used to just be like, oh my gosh, this is so ridiculous. This is all just like making everything more complicated. But you know, I've just learned it. Whereas doing an indie, you don't have those restraints. And it was interesting because we had like indie producers, And they wanna make the best project they can make, which like, of [00:24:00] course you do.

But we were still working with a actual studio and had to follow their rules. And so, you know, we had to do a certain amount of cuts, , no matter where we thought it was. And the studio got say in a lot of things. So some stuff had to be compromised. And another interesting thing about it is because we had a unscripted television studio department working with us, they also weren't privy to all the theatrical rules.

And that includes myself. So for instance, in television, for a half hour show, the director gets two days with the cut and then it goes to producers and the director's gone and it turns into what it turns into. And an hour long television show, the DGA gives them four days. So when they were creating this post schedule before I was on board, and this post budget, you know, the producers who obviously don't work in post, so they don't know all those rules were like, Hey, HBO does this look good?

Because they should be the [00:25:00] ones to know this well, because they do television. They didn't know that a tier one theatrical film, the director gets 10 weeks with their director's cut, meaning the studio can't see any thing. They can't see any portion of the cut until after that 10 weeks. So there was a major disconnect because we basically still had to do the rules where we do a certain amount of cuts and do the certain schedule for the studio, but we had 10 weeks where they couldn't see it and we still had to fit it in this tiny timeline that they basically, the studio had been like, oh, they only need a couple days for the director's cut, so this should work.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. Was it a big gap in the budget then too?

Erica Djafroodi: Oh my gosh, yeah. And it already was a tight budget because I read this script and I was like, okay, this is an extremely VFX heavy project. There's just no way around it. And so we already had a very limited budget for VFX and for sound, and we had a very specific amount of weeks for labor, and it [00:26:00] was just impossible when everybody realized we have to incorporate these 10 weeks.

These are DGA rules, but we still have to do what the studio says. And so we definitely went over and it was kind of, it was a little bit uncomfortable because you know, I kind of rallied a bunch of vendors that I work, that I have working relationships with, because I've worked on many shows with them and they were kind of doing us some favors because this movie visually was a lot more ambitious than the budget reflected.

And so it got, it got kind of weird cuz you're like pulling favors, but you have this tight timeline and you're like, Hey, can you please just like do this for us? , I don't know. It, it made things interesting and it, it definitely compromises the work because it's, I I always think it's so funny because like, this is Meko's first feature film, right?

And had she gotten to do whatever she wanted to. And had a little bit more [00:27:00] money, it probably would look very different, the effects and everything. And so now I look at some of these films like on tv, and I'm like, oh my gosh, those VFX are so bad. Oh, this is so cheesy, that's so fake. And I have a little more empathy because it's like, this is what they had to work with.

It doesn't necessarily mean this is creatively their style and they kind of suck because what they put out sucked. It's like, no, there, there are a lot of compromises and limitations because these things are so expensive, you know? And people are giving you money to make it so you, you can only go so far.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, how is that for you as a producer? Cuz you come in, you know the budget's already set, you're seeing this big hole in the budget. So like day one, I imagine you have to be bad cop, which is probably not how you wanna present yourself on the first day. And at the same time, that's definitely your job.

And you definitely have to say something like, how do you, how do you do that?

Erica Djafroodi: It was uncomfortable because again, because the disconnect between, you know, [00:28:00] production that is used to indies and then I'm, I'm the liaison between HBO Max post production and the movie production. And so you have to kind of play both sides cuz you wanna keep everybody happy.

And so from the beginning, you know, I had to go dark for a couple of weeks while they were shooting because we were like, we don't have enough money. Like, you know, , so that, that was tough because I didn't know what was going on. And, you know, once I came back I offered some potential solutions because I could project that we were definitely gonna be over in labor, and so it was like, okay, we need to make some cuts. Now we can, during the director's cut period, put our assistant editor on hiatus and save that money while Byron and Meko are just working together. So if we have extra weeks on the backend, we can still pay them. But in those moments, you know, especially in indie filmmaking.

They're like, no, we don't wanna do that. That doesn't, you know, of course that's not [00:29:00] ideal. You don't want to make those cuts, but you end up paying for it later when it's really, really important to have these things if you don't, so like my mentality was like, let's see what we can spare in the beginning, especially during these 10 weeks where the studio can't see anything and we're not outputting cuts and everything, it will help us later, but everyone has to agree.

I can only offer these solutions. Like they're suggestions, you know? And so you, you have to compromise and it, it puts you in a weird situation financially because, I also don't wanna hurt my relationships with these vendors who are doing us favors. Yeah. And everything. But it, it made it weird cuz I had to ask them, you know, this is how much money we have, can you do this?

But then towards the end, there's always more, there's always more VFX at the end than you think. There's always more work at the end. There's more outputs, there's more color time, there's more online tim. Always. Like, I've never not had that. And so, you [00:30:00] know, you're like, this is how much money we have, what can you do for this amount?

And they also wanna make a good project. Their name is on it. So they're in a weird position too, because they don't wanna give you crap, you know, but they, they deserve more. So, , it was, it was weird.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then do you have a list in your head of, okay, my next job when I actually have some money and some more budget, I'm calling these vendors back and getting them on the job and making it up to them?

Erica Djafroodi: I'm already doing that. . Yeah, I'm working with Ingenuity, one of our VFX companies, , on Gray Matter on my show right now. And I've used them on a lot of shows and they're like my fave because they're just super cool and they really work with you. And I am mixing, , the show that I'm on right now at Formosa, which is where we did the feature.

And I've worked with them before too. So it was kind of like, Hey guys. I'm gonna do what I can. You know, I'm, I bring them work, you know, especially now that I'm in this position and have a little bit more say of what vendors each project uses, pending [00:31:00] everyone else approves. I, I nudge work their way because I know that they, they do a lot, they do a lot for their clients.

Julie Harris Oliver: It really speaks to, you have to take a long view of this career, right? It's never just that show you're on, you're gonna be working with all kinds of different people on all kinds of different projects. You really gotta think this is a 20, 30 with any like 40, 50 year relationships and journey.

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah. Yeah.

Which is why you should always be nice to everybody , because it's, you're always gonna run into these people again, or you're always gonna need a favor on an indie or something later. And, you know, people are willing to do it for you because they trust you and they know you're nice and you're, you're gonna keep bringing them stuff.

So it's. It's definitely, it's a small, it's a small industry.

Julie Harris Oliver: It really is. Excellent point. So now in general, if you're delivering for television or you're delivering for a streamer, or you're delivering for a theatrical. How does that change things for both of you?[00:32:00]

Byron Wong: Whether it's theatrical or streaming? I, I approach it the same way. It, it, it doesn't necessarily make a difference to me cuz we're still like, it's still the script. It's still the scene, it's still the, the, the footage that we have to work with, you know? And so I'm, I'm, I I work the same, pretty much the same way I, I usually do In we're where things are certain, you know, somewhat different is that, , you know, like for a feature I'll work in reels, , you know, about good 15 to 20 minute chunks.

Whereas, , say, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily do that in tv. I know like some people were kind of like, we're, we're new to that workflow. And so that, you know, sometimes it took some getting used to, but, , but that's, you know, how we did. Or mixes, that's, I'm not sure actually how we did the color, if we did that in reels were the full long play.

But, , I wasn't there for that portion of that. , but ,

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean since everything is digital now, does it affect the files, how they come out at the end, or what type of files you deliver?

Byron Wong: For me, I mean, like, I don't necessarily know because from what I [00:33:00] understand, it's like, yeah, people do now start working in the full long play.

And , and in fact I was chatting with some of those guys at Formosa and that's how they deliver it. That's how they deliver the film. You know, they don't necessarily deliver it in reels anymore, which is fine. , I just, for me, like, you know, when I work in those 15 to 20 minute chunks, it, it makes it more manageable mentally for me.

Yeah. , and cuz it's the workflow that I'm used to and it's also like, you know, gives me a little bit of like a, and for us, let's say, yeah, I could be working on real three and then my assistant could be doing stuff on reel two and, , you know, it, it, it helps in that, in that workflow as well. ,

Julie Harris Oliver: what about you, Erica?

Erica Djafroodi: Well, it was interesting cuz again, this was my first feature and so working in reels and the, the theatrical workflow Byron taught me a lot about because it was all basically the same stuff, the same concepts, but there was different language for it all. Even like, you know, in TV we say we're going to on line the cut, so we're gonna, because our editors are working with proxy footage, [00:34:00] smaller.

Sized footage so their systems can handle it. You know, once we lock the cut, we send it to online and they relink the files with the super high res footage, but in features they call it DI and, Digital Intermediate. And Byron taught me about that and how that also includes color, where that's a totally separate line item on a budget for tv.

And so it was, it was different the way that everybody spoke about it and the, you know, verbs we used and everything. Uh, but ultimately, It's all the same, especially, yeah. Now that everything is being delivered digitally, I would say every project and every studio I've worked with has done it differently.

They have different specs, they have different requirements that you need to output to, and it's all very tedious and meticulous, but you kind of just give that to the people who have to deliver the files. They do it. It's, it's not any harder. It's definitely easier than when we had to deliver things on tapes, like, , [00:35:00] HD cams and all of that stuff.

It's faster and you can be remote and you don't need a post PA driving, driving filmall over Los Angeles.

Julie Harris Oliver: To the airport.

Erica Djafroodi: Yes. Right. Which is, which is nice.

Byron Wong: That was my first time I visited LA was, , carrying, , six rolls of film of Changing Lanes on the, on the airport to, to get it dropped off to, so it could be, , rated by the MPAA.

That was my first time visiting LA That was like, , that, that I do not like this. It's like trying, going through an airport with. Oh my God. How many mad cases? It was like, you know, four, at least four ICCC cases, or, you know, like, , or Goldberg says they were known locally here. , it is so not fun. I, I, I, God, I hated it.

I hated it so much. .

Julie Harris Oliver: I wonder like if the generation coming up, like it seems to be, everyone who's been in it for a while has that story of like, driving a thing to the airport or the, and they always [00:36:00] put the most precious piece in the hands of the newest person on the crew who has it in the back of their car that may or may not even make it to the airport.

Like, I think, I don't know if this new generation's gonna have those stories.

Erica Djafroodi: I don't think so.

Byron Wong: It's good. It's all. These kids today, you know.

Julie Harris Oliver: These kids, they dunno what they're up against. That's

Byron Wong: funny. But, , one thing I, I do wanna like tag onto what Erica was talking about. Like, we were, we were chatting a little bit about this before that Gray Matter in particular was a weird kind of hybrid between feature filmmaking and TV making because it was a feature film made by mostly in, in, you know, like a very much a TV workflow.

Even though there, there are definitely like adjustments that were made because it was a feature film. Like we, we, we also still, I feel like we were in a TV workflow for a lot of it. I mean, you know, we, and it, it, it, it was challenging because yeah, there's, there's certain things that you expect when you work in a feature film.

You got to be certain. Pay [00:37:00] scales and you know, certain, you know, other, , you know, languages and workflows that you're all familiar with. But then, you know, you're also like dealing with a different, , a different require, these different requirements. For example, in feature films, I've never really dealt with a studio cut or a network cut and a studio network cut.

Usually it's, you know, an editor's assembly, , a director's cut and then working until you're getting, until your lock cut, you know, certain milestones are not, are marked usually by previews. , say Okay, we're gonna have a preview at this point and then see where we are, you know, get scores and that kind of stuff.

Here we're, we were turning over the cut for a while, once a week and getting notes and, and we are calling these fine cuts and soft locks and, , some of these other kind of terminology that I wasn't really used to in terms of working in features. , you know, I've done that for tv, but it was, it was a weird kind of hybrid and I, I, I don't know if we quite navigated it successfully, but I mean the film got done and, and we were, but it was really strange [00:38:00] and, and stressful in, in certain ways trying to marry those two different types of workflows together.

Julie Harris Oliver: Were there any challenges or drama or situations that you were able to keep away from the cameras that are not gonna end up in the show?

Byron Wong: I don't know if I can mention them here.

Julie Harris Oliver: So, yes.

Byron Wong: I mean, there, there's some things that, yeah, we definitely, you know, tried to keep out of camera's views and, and certain things were just, we felt it wasn't, no, it would, it basically would not have served anybody.

If these were to come to light, you know, it wouldn't help like ourselves, it wouldn't help the, , the other parties. It would not help the audience in terms of, , learning about filmmaking. , and even as for drama, it's, it wouldn't necessarily have been satisfying as a dramatic element either. So yeah, it, , yeah, there's, there's a couple.

There wasn't a lot, I mean, we, for the most part got along very well, and, , there wasn't too much drama in post. But, you know, there's some things that we didn't, [00:39:00] definitely didn't need to air, you know, certain laundry that could just remain where they were. I don't mixing mess metaphors here, but, ,

Julie Harris Oliver: so yes.

But they, they will remain a mystery. Yes, that's what I'm hearing. How about you, Erica?

Erica Djafroodi: I would say the same. I would kind of, , repeat what I said earlier about how this feels more like a docu-series rather than a reality show. And it's about first time directors and how to make films. And so some of the personal things that happen at any job when you have a ton of people working endlessly, especially when it's a low budget thing, you're getting paid less than what you're used to.

Um, and working more hours and, , all this stuff, you know, people, people are people. We're all human and not everybody works well together. But yeah, we, we tried to keep stuff like that again behind the [00:40:00] camera if we could, because yeah, it would serve no purpose for learning how to make a movie or it's, it would happen in any job, I feel.

I feel like there are, there are issues like, HR type things with any sort of job when you have a number of people. So, and it wouldn't have been that interesting anyways to be honest. So if you want the hot drama watch season four of Project Greenlight and then watch season five. And let's compare

Let's compare and see what director is cool.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wow. Okay. There's some, there's some shade right there, ladies and gentlemen.

Erica Djafroodi: Well, no, I just mean, I just mean I almost feel like this season just won't be as interesting. I don't know how they're gonna cut it together, you know? I mean, who knows what happens in post, but-

Julie Harris Oliver: It was so explosive that last season. How could it be? No. How could it be? Let's hope we've all learned something since that [00:41:00] one.

Erica Djafroodi: Right. And Meko is so chill. So like, it just, it was never gonna be that. Yeah, for sure. Sorry to disappoint the viewers.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what was one of your favorite memories that you'll take away from this project?

Byron Wong: For me, it was just like working with the people that, , you know, I worked with on this show, like meeting, you know, everybody. Like, that's what it's been like for me lately, just because after a while all these jobs kind of like would start to blend together. Like, you know, there's definitely things that, you know, you worked on that, you know, like scenes or cuts that you're very proud of and, you know, that kind of stuff like that.

Yeah. That was cool. I really liked that, how I did, you know, did that. And , you know, usually what it comes down to is just yeah, the people I'm working with and, , I loved working with Meko and I loved working with Yolanda and Jeanette and, , you know, people at Hoorae. It was really, it was really cool.

Like, , I, I feel like, of course Erica, I, you know, I was really bummed when you didn't come to the, , the [00:42:00] cutting room cuz it would've been, oh my God the cutting room would've been so much more fun. I mean, like, not that we weren't having fun already, but Oh my God, we would've had a blast.

Erica Djafroodi: I know. Would've it made it way more boring for me? Let me tell you.

Byron Wong: Oh yeah. But, , I, yeah, it to mean that was, that was my biggest takeaway. I feel like I've, I've made friends that I will hopefully continue to work with and, and just have friendships for the rest of my, my life, my career. I mean, I, I can't really specifically point to any one particular thing that, , was the best moment in this show, but just, just like, you know, I just, it's more of the experience that I've had working on it.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you, Erica?

Erica Djafroodi: You know, because yeah, I'm not, I'm not editing the film, so, and of course you have to watch something to QC it a million times, but it still doesn't feel. I would still say, yeah, the relationships are much more prominent to me um, because Byron's right, especially when you're on the more management admin side of things, they all start to blend [00:43:00] together, you know?

Especially in episodic, because I'm doing 10 episodes simultaneously and sometimes I forget which is which, you know, it all blends together. But we've all in this industry worked with the stereotypical people that you hear about in Hollywood. Like, maybe not, it's not like Devil Wears Prada. It's not that intense.

But everybody's, you know, met. People that are difficult to work with. And so anytime you have a team where everybody is just truly kind and they're focused on their job and we all have the same goal and that's understood and just aren't lazy and respect one another, it, it makes so much of a difference.

And like major shout out to Byron because I also have learned so much from Byron just because he has all this theatrical experience and I didn't know about it. And I just found it pretty fascinating because it's not like I went to film school to, you know, be an accountant, which is a lot of the work that I do now.

You know, that's [00:44:00] not why I went to film school to do that or to make calendars. So it is fascinating and I learned so much from Jeanette and Yolanda, and both of them were just so nice and so encouraging and supportive. I just loved them and I would love to work with any of you guys again, truly, truly, and that matters because again, like I said, every, you know, you keep these relationships.

In this business you're freelance, you're going from gig to gig. So it's really important the more people you meet and like harbor relationships with, the more opportunities later and you wanna work with people that you like and that you know are good at their job and who are, who make the days easier by being kind.

Julie Harris Oliver: Before I ask you the martini shot, is there anything that I should have asked you that I didn't ask you that you're dying to talk about?

Erica Djafroodi: I mean, I do. I do love talking about post though to people who don't, who aren't in post because they don't know how many balls are in the air really at once. You know, you tell someone you work in post [00:45:00] production and it's like, oh, you edit the film together and then get it to the tv, and it's like, oh my gosh.

If it were that simple, , you know, like especially, especially when you have the micromanagement of a studio or network because they're the money people, you know, and having to make everybody happy. And I mentioned before, having to online everything and then color everything and sound effects and every stock footage shot.

There are rules and legalities to. And every line that you say in the film, if it like mentions something you could get in. So you have to be careful or you know, this didn't happen in this, but say Meko has a huge wide shot and from a mile away you can see a piece of graffiti that was just in the world.

Well that's not okay. Try to find that artist on Instagram and see if it is okay. And if not, spend thousands of dollars removing it. There's just so many tiny little things that go into it. And you know, everyone kind of focuses on production because production's awesome and it, it's definitely more [00:46:00] interesting than being on a bunch of computers.

But there is so much in Post where like we really help craft and create the project. And so, Yeah, I think, I think it's cool. I think post is

Byron Wong: cool. Yeah, that's is, this is where we clean up everything that they didn't get to or bother with during production. Like, , all, all these little things that it's, it's like during production you get, , all these little time bombs that you, you're not aware of until you get to post.

And then suddenly they all start exploding when suddenly we realized we had to do a lot of ADR because the floors are super squeaky that we couldn't, let's say, , address or they didn't wanna bother with. Like, I was on another show where like, it had just rained and, , people walked by the, you know, they're going into this car and like, and then the story had not rained.

Just rained. And , and so we had to like, spend few thousand dollars cleaning up this car from all the rain drops where it would've taken some of the, in production, you know, two minutes just to wipe it down with a piece of cloth. Oh my God. And so, like, , [00:47:00] that didn't happen on Gray Matter, but , I'm just talking about production and, and post in general. And a lot of times you don't even realize these things aren't gonna happen, are, are happening until you get the post. For example, like, , let's say like one of the, one, one of the mics failed for, you know, for one of the, in one of the scenes and you don't necessarily know until it's after the scene's been shot and we're already moved on.

And so there's pretty much nothing we can do. And so, , luckily we had amazing, talented, , sound editors like Jim Brookshire, who I also worked with on Tropic Thunder, but he, he was the dialogue editor on Gray Matter and, , he managed to save a lot of, , a lot of sound, , just because of his own expertise in talent.

But that's like some of the examples that we, we are constantly doing in

Julie Harris Oliver: post. So that fix it in post is not your favorite

Byron Wong: idea. Oh my God. I just, like my, a friend of mine, she gave me this t-shirt called Fix It In Pre with just said, Fix it pre. I don't, , I wore that a couple of [00:48:00] times on during the show, and so like, , I don't know if I'll make it into the cut, but it is very much appropriate because like the, I feel like, yeah, Erica, maybe, I don't know what you think about this, but like, there's so much that we could have done, so much money we could have saved if we had like, you know, if they had more, you know, again, Meko not to blame for any of this, but like, you know, if we, people had planned out, like, okay, looking at the script, we need more money in the VFX budget.

We need an onsite VFX supervisor all the time, and not for just, you know, certain, particular shots. , because, you know, all these things create issues for us down the line, you know, that, that type of thing. Like we're, you know, if people had, were able to plan a little bit better, we would've saved ourselves a lot of time and money.

Sometimes it just gets frustrating, especially when you're dealing with low. Low budget, low, like, you know, like not a lot of time to, you know, to, to work with. We have to be fully on point and , in, in sync and, , very organized and like, you know, I definitely will [00:49:00] like, take a lot of the blame for, let's say, you know, the visual effects being not as organized as I they should have been because there was a lot of like confusion sometimes with these.

We had these multiple spreadsheets going on and not all of them were always up to date in the best way. And like, , , and like a lot of times I, you know, I didn't have time to deal with it cuz there was so much else going on and then, but that also created issues down the line. , so

Erica Djafroodi: that wasn't you Byron though, sorry to interrupt you, but like, I, like, at least in my experience in tv, I've always, , my side of things has always handled the VFX in terms of tracking them and everything, but something about this specific project, the fact that I couldn't even see the editor's cut means I couldn't see what VFX shots needed to be done until we only had two weeks to get the VFX done, and so I wasn't able to help Byron and our assistant editor like really flesh these out and, , get these descriptions over to our VFX teams to [00:50:00] see how much it's gonna cost or how much time it's gonna take. It made it very difficult, you know, because Byron is sitting there all day being filmed, editing the actual movie, and I need to be able to see that movie and go through the time codes so I can ask him questions like, Hey, what are you looking for here?

Let me talk to vfx so he doesn't have to handle that. So it was kind of an impossible situation for you, Byron, because this project had so many effects, and I'm trying to help, I just put in like, okay, the description here is, , cool transition. And it's like, how do I explain that ? What does that mean?

Listen, I, so I'm like trying to get a bid from our VFX team being like, here, we need a cool transition . And they're like, okay, it's gonna cost this much. And then they see the footage at the end of the line when we need to deliver, and they're like, You guys, this is huge. Like it's gonna cost way more than this.

And so it, it created so many [00:51:00] problems because we just didn't have enough time after that 10 week director's cut and it Yeah, just, it made it hard. Yeah. And yeah.

Byron Wong: Definitely because like to your your point about that, it's like, , because a lot of times, you know, it'd be sitting with my, with Meko and she's like, ah, you know, like I'll put a temp, like whatever, kind of like wipe or dissolve or something, you know, whatever.

And, , and then she's like, okay, yeah, that, that as a temp, you know, they'll get the point across. But like, I really want something cool. I don't know what it is. And. or even just like, we have a lot of teleportation effects in this movie. And she wasn't sure about how she wanted it to look. Um, and she was like, well, you know, and we were always kind of promised we'd have some time to research and develop these looks with a vendor where like the vendor would say, okay, here, here are some, some examples of what we can do with this.

And then give us a couple things for us to explore and, and develop. And, , but we never got that opportunity. It was like, by the time we had gotten to that point, we're like, okay, what is it? We only have time for like, maybe like one or [00:52:00] two versions and that's it. And then we had to, we had to just keep going.

And, , that was really unfortunate and, and frustrating, especially for Meko that she didn't really get to play. Yeah, she felt she was like, you know, kind of like cheated out of some of those processes. Like she, you know, without being able to, , have an idea, like right off the bat, I mean, she had some ideas that, you know, but she was kind of hoping to, to lean on some of our, our visual effects, you know, artists' abilities and, , creativity on their own end to to, to see like what creative solutions that we could come up with the, to some of these issues.

And, you know, we never really had the time to fully explore.

Erica Djafroodi: She had to settle. She had to settle on some stuff due to running outta money and running outta time, which is just another reason why, you know, I look at everything differently now. If I think something looks cheesy, it's like that doesn't always reflect on the director or the editor.

Sometimes that just happens and you have limitations and who knows if they even liked how it turned out, you know? Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Who knows If they had to [00:53:00] take a thousand water droplets off a car instead of being able to spend that money on some cool effect, like that puts it all in perspective. That example of somebody missing something visually up front robs you of something on the back cuz it's a finite amount of money.

So, Heads up everywhere. Oh my

Erica Djafroodi: gosh. Pay attention. Oh my even, even like, , I was on a show and we had a set of a grocery store and they put little organic stickers on all of the produce in the whole store, and legal came back to us and post and said, can you confirm that all of these are organic? Oh my gosh.

I was like, no. Like, I don't know. And they said, okay, well then you need to VFX the organic stickers off of every piece because we can't confirm it's organic. And that's false advertising because there were some real products in there, like next to the fruit and everything. So like that, oh my God, that then I was late to deliver that.

A lot of the VFX budget went [00:54:00] to that. It's just, it's so frustrating. These tiny little things and then you miss out on some other opportunities because of stuff like that. Wow. All right,

Julie Harris Oliver: now we have our martini shot. So as you all know, it's our last shot of the day or our last question of the podcast. So what advice do you have for someone who's wanting to do what you do?

What would you tell them?

Byron Wong: My answer would to that would be, , just you have to be proactive. and, you know, to get to where I am, and not that I'm like, you know, this highfalutin editor, you know, it's, I've had a weird career and I've gone in many different directions. But, , but just to, you know, to be successful, you can't be lazy.

You gotta be, you know, getting yourself out there, getting yourself in front of people, getting, you know, making those connections, and I'm guilty of it. Sometimes I get lazy and I'm like, oh, I really should send an email to this person. I don't feel like it right now. But, you know, you gotta just push through that and say, no, I gotta, you know, maintain these relationships.

You know, maybe send these emails, do some of these [00:55:00] cold calls, or, and be active. Like, I, I do a mentorship program where I mentor, like young women of color who are interested in, , well first of all, you know, the program is for, to be interested in anything, in any kind of field. But like the, the people that I've mentored have been interested in editing in general, and that's pretty much what I've, I've told each and every one of them is that, ,

You gotta, you gotta be, find out what's going on in the industry. Find out who your, you know, you know, the players are. And then also to know your stuff, know your craft. Yeah. Like when you're an assistant editor, , no one might, you know, people might not, you know, necessarily want to know, like, okay, how would you cut this thing differently?

But, you know, but somebody, someday, somebody would, like the editor you work for, for example, would be interested in saying, Hey, you know, how would you approach this? Or what, what's wrong with this scene? What do you feel like something's wrong with this scene? What do you think it is? And. And you never, you know, you gotta be prepared for that moment and say, okay, you know, this is what I think should, this is, this is the, you know, the issues I've been feeling, you know, and then that, [00:56:00] for me, that, that happened to me.

Were like, the editors I've worked for when I was an assistant, you're saying, oh, what do you think about this? And, , you know, like, okay, well, you know, I think maybe, you know, you're missing the wide shot here. You're missing the establishing childhood. That's what the, you know, or, or that's what I feel is, is wrong with the scene.

And they might try that, or it'd be cool to go to the close up to see what their reaction is. And, , and then like, for example, yeah, the editor I've worked with and they're like, oh yeah, that's a cool idea. And then they'll, they'll say, Hey, do you wanna start? You want take a stab at cutting the scene? . And then, you know, that's how, , I started cutting scenes for the editors and then to the point where like, yeah, the, the editor would be very comfortable with me, like cutting a bunch of different scenes.

And so like, oh yeah, one movie I worked on, I literally cut, at least did the first cut on half the scenes in the movie. And then, so just because, you know, well, there was many reasons why that happened, but like, there was, there was a lot of improvisation, so there was just so much footage to go through and so many different iterations.

We didn't have enough time. But, , the editor felt comfortable enough to trust me to, , cut these scenes and then at least, you know, [00:57:00] do the first cut of these scenes. And then we worked on them together and then like the editor ended up having to leave for, you know, , a bunch of different reasons. , and he said, well, you know, Byron, would you like to take over for me in the editor chair?

And that's how I got one of my first big editing jobs was that, , yeah, he let me take over for him. And then, and, , the director by that time and the studio had become comfortable enough with me to be able to trust me in those situations.

Julie Harris Oliver: You never know when opportunity's gonna present itself. Exactly.

Byron Wong: Exactly. So yeah, that would be like, you know, to just to kind of like, for people starting out, just to be on top of it and be, be persistent and be prepared.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great. Erica?

Erica Djafroodi: I would say keep working. You know, you have to start from the bottom a lot of times. And, you know, you come in as a PA and you're getting people coffee, you're cleaning the coffee machine, you're getting like craft service and you get paid terribly and people yell at you sometimes [00:58:00] and it's, it's a tough, you gain a lot of humility if you take it in how you should.

And, , so getting through that. Is, you know, some people get promoted quick, but you, you see these like recent USC grads and UCLA grads and we all, we all came here, you know, because we love film or at least a lot of us did, and we're creative people and that's not always the job. You know, like it takes years and years sometimes of having not fun jobs, not creative jobs that you may feel kind of entitled to because maybe you won best in show in your college film festival and you know, you've been told that you're this creative person and everything.

And so it's a hard pill to swallow. And I know a lot of people who started as PAs and they're like, I can't do this anymore. I deserve a coordinator job, or I wanna be a writer, this or that. And so they won't take another PA. so they only know the five people that they worked with on that [00:59:00] first job because they're not willing to, you know, take that bad pay and work through it, but just keep working, take the jobs even if you got promoted once and have to go back to the previous position for one season.

All of these are short term gigs and you'll get through it. And the more experience you have, the better the more people you meet. And what Byron said, don't be lazy. Really people just want to work with pleasant people and people that will help them. You know, no one is really trying to like get you to do all the work for them.

There's a lot of moving parts and. You wanna be able to trust people to just help you if they can. And so there's not a lot of time to just like sit around and not be proactive or you won't get hired again because you're not very helpful. And the people who stand out really care and will ask you, you know, what can I do to help?

Like, is there anything that you need right now? And that's tough cuz that's a lot of energy. It is a lot of energy. It takes that, it takes energy, it takes [01:00:00] humility. But again, if you hate your boss, if it's the worst job ever, you're gonna be on a new show or a new project in a couple months and it might not be that bad.

So don't, don't quit or think you're too good to do it. Just keep working. That's

Julie Harris Oliver: great. Sometimes you have to get the coffee mm-hmm. . But it'll lead to bigger and better things.

Byron Wong: I've gotten so much coffee for people. Like, there was a time I actually, I was working with the editor of, of Snake Eyes, ended up working for, you know, the great Bill Panko, who is a fantastic editor and just a even better person.

I, I love the guy. He is in many ways really responsible for my career. Like for all the people who've, you know, helped me, you in the past. He's definitely like, , you know, helped push me forward. He got me my agent at UTA, , anyway, but, , yeah, I, I made coffee for him, cappuccinos for him, like on several different jobs, you know, and you know what, I was happy to do it cuz he was really cool guy and he was always the nicest and I was happy to do it for him.

Absolutely. I'll, I'll do it for him today. You know, [01:01:00] cuz , you know, he, he's been such a, Influence and, you know, a person in my life. So to that point, to Erica's point, you know, it's like your attitude counts for a lot. You know, I've worked with, I've had assistants who've had, you know, issues like, I feel like I deserve more than this.

And I understand that. I try to, you know, help you with that. But at the same time, like you giving me this attitude, sometimes feeling like you're above the a the work I'm asking you to do definitely is a turnoff. And, , I can get another assistant easily to do the work that, you know, you, you need to do without the attitude.

So, you know that that's the situation for a lot, lot of people starting out. And like, you know, a lot of times, like, I realize sometimes like, yeah, like the work's not easy. The work is not fun, you know, and, , you know, it's not always, you know, you're doing what, you know, you feel might be, you know, necessarily like, you know, below your station, but you know, that you, you do the work that you're, you're, you've been hired to do.

And, , you know, like, yeah, when I, even when I've become an editor, I've, I've done, I've gone back to assisting just to, you know, [01:02:00] to. to work to be able to, you know, make my hours, for example. But that's, , you know, that's what you had to do because, you know, you weren't, not everybody was gonna say, okay, you've, you know, edited this one thing, so you're gonna be an editor from now on.

Don't, doesn't always work that way. So, you know, you do what you have to do to make your living, to make, you know, to get your hours in and to, , survive and just meet more people and meet new people and expand your network. So like, yeah, your attitude counts for a lot and it, and sometimes it's the only thing it can count for.

Erica Djafroodi: Last thing I'll say is, I, when I was a pa, I was a PA for a long time and it was like kind of soul crushing and I ha I . When I was a PA, everybody called me peanut. I don't know why. Maybe you can guess , but I just, I just remember all these stories happening that I'd be like, oh my gosh, this is so Hollywood that it would almost make, it would be like laughable.

And I wanted to have this anonymous blog called Peanut the PA, or , from the peanut gallery or something and tell these Hollywood stories. But I always [01:03:00] remember during that time thinking, no matter how high I get, never be too good to be a PA. And I've always tried to remember that like. Never think that you're too good to do these tasks because all of the tasks are important.

They really are. Even though the money doesn't always reflect that, admittedly, I feel like the best bosses that I've ever had are the ones who don't minimize that work. And you know, if the PA is super busy, they'll help order the lunch. They are not too good to do those tasks. And I think those are the kindest people.

And in today's day and age, I think that. That Hollywood could kind of turn into that with the new generations and stuff, there's way less stereotypical crap it seems like. It seems like it's heading that direction, and I think that's great. It doesn't have to be how it once was, you know, with Devil Wears Prada.

Oh my gosh. I've referenced that twice. But you get it.

Julie Harris Oliver: We are. We are down for the revolution, and I would listen [01:04:00] to that show all day long. Nina, the PA . Thank you so much both of you. Erica Djafroodi and Byron Wong. Thank you so much for being on Catch a Break.

Byron Wong: Thank you for having us.

Erica Djafroodi: Thanks for having us.

Byron Wong: It was fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch A Break, Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Erica Djafroodi and Byron Wong. And special thanks to crewvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Please check out our website at catch a break podcast.com and follow us on all the social media.

Catch A Break is produced in partnership with Catch Light Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Joscelyn. Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

Next up, we finish the film by talking with Jeff Pitts, the sound designer, and Haim Mazar the composer. In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.[01:05:00]

EP 409: The Production Sound Mixer and Video Assist Operator

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at Catch a Break podcast.com and all the social media at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. The presenting sponsor of season four of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot featuring New York and LA Downtown Street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices along with post-production space dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all their clients. Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need and budget. Find them at santaclaritastudios.com. We are continuing our [00:01:00] Project Greenlight series where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

We're dropping these pretty fast, so if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 401. In this episode, I sat down with Savanna Peters, who is a video assist operator, and Sarah Glazer who's a production sound mixer Both of these women are in very male dominated positions and departments and they share how they've navigated that along with telling us all about the jobs Okay have a listen Welcome to Catch A Break I'm here with Sara Glaser and Savanna Peters Now Sara Glaser is a production sound mixer Her introduction to recording was Bootleg Tape Trading in College I love Uh this led to her enrollment at UCLA for recording engineering songwriting in the music business Sara was hired by Bill Duley at Brooklyn Recording in 1998 and the first six months of Sarah's studio career was building a studio and learning to troubleshoot after Brooklyn Sarah was Staff engineer at Track Record and Devonshire recording before going freelance She engineered [00:02:00] for Delaney Bramlet at Carnegie Hole and then segued into music post-production Sara worked as a restoration sound editor at Sound Chambers mastering for Eric Dosh from 2001 to 2003 during which time she restored 26 films for MGM in three to five languages each That must have been super cool In the summer of 2003 she toured with the Reverend Al Green She was co-mixing front of house on the West Coast leg and was Al's monitor engineer when he headlined at Monterey Jazz Fest Sara then switched to production sound She joined the IA Local 695 in 2005 and Cinema Autos Society in 2016 She was accepted at the Television Academy as a full voting member in 2022 She's a board member of both IA Local 695 and the Los Angeles Executive Committee of the Audio Engineering Society Okay Hi Sara

Sara Glaser: Hi

Julie Harris Oliver: We would love to hear what was your very first job in the production business and how did you get it

Sara Glaser: In the production business Um I didn't know anybody [00:03:00] so I just went to Craigslist in the gigs and just Hey I knew sound you know and sending out So I I don't remember what my first one was I think the first Feature that I did cause I walked in as a mixer was uh this film you'll you've never seen called Anna's Eve

Julie Harris Oliver: How did you know I've never seen it

Sara Glaser: I've never seen it You know I it was it was one of those everybody shoots a lot of things and I actually Got hired on that one My director was a a guy named Cans and he's an African American guy and he hired me because I since I didn't have a production resume I sent in my restoration resume and I had uh worked as a restoration sound pick editor on Coffee Foxy Brown black Mama white Mama truck Turner and Black Season So he got my resume and he's like and you tour with Al Green and you're hired Yeah Uhhuh And it [00:04:00] was like there were other resumes like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang but it was like Coffee and Fox like that That opens a different door

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah Oh that's great Savanna Hello how are you

Savanna Peters: Hello

Julie Harris Oliver: Savanna's a video assist operator who found her way into TV and film after reading Glennon Doyle's book untamed We are really going to unpack that and feeling inspired to make a career change In June of 2021 she met Dempsey Tillman of Man in the Box and was given the opportunity to join the IA at 695 Y16 a trainee program a program aimed at increasing diversity within the union as a video assist trainee she officially joined the union in October of 2021 and is excited to have recently hit her year mark in the field Hello Savanna

Savanna Peters: Hi How are you

Julie Harris Oliver: Savanna before I ask you what your first job in the business was and how did you get it?What were you doing before and how did Untamed change your life

Savanna Peters: So when I graduated college I worked for a company that did ITstaffing So I started in that as a recruiter and then account manager It's actually what brought me to la They moved me here to support our work with Disney [00:05:00] And so that brought me to LA and then I was about six months into it it was in the midst of the pandemic And I read Untamed I think it was like June of 2020 And I was like I'm miserable Why am I doing this Like I think I just had the I was younger and I was like I'm making good money I should stay in this you know Um not realizing that I just wasn't happy And so It was uh Glennon's book just gave me everything I needed like courage wise to be like I have to change something And I had no real plan other than take some time off and figure things out And I was very fortunate My sister's in the business more on the unscripted side of things And so she had said hey um she'd been on a show battle Bots on discovery for a couple seasons as um a key pa And then at the time that I joined her was maybe assistant production manager and was like why don't you just come on as a PA and try it out Like see if you like the business and I And so that's how I got my foot in the door and the the industry just in general

Julie Harris Oliver: And then how'd you know video assist was what you wanted to do

Savanna Peters: I had no idea So I after that across the street they were filming um that Netflix [00:06:00] movie the Gray Man And so I got under that as on the health and safety team as a Covid pa And it was two weeks before we were gonna wrap that I think we were on it like eight months cuz we were on it once they like started construction of the set So we were on it for a long time I met Dempsey Tillman and he had said Hey if you're you know interested we just got to talking Um there's a need for more women in this field There's not alot And um there we have a trainee program and so if I had something would you be interested And I was like heck yes Um and then two weeks later I got a call from him that he had a movie and I got on that movie and that's how I got my days

Julie Harris Oliver: Fabulous So the trainee program was practical on set

Savanna Peters: Yes Yeah it's they they bring you on Um I worked with a guy Kyle DeShazo He was like my trainer And so we're on a movie it was supposed to be 35 days and it ended up being 50 just cuz of some stuff that happened And so that was like my crash course of video assist and I felt like that was the best way to learn it because I don't really know how you would unless you're on set doing it as the problems come up

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah So did you get all your days on that one job

Savanna Peters: I did yes Very very fortunate with my way in

Julie Harris Oliver: And do you love video asist

Savanna Peters: I [00:07:00] do yeah

Julie Harris Oliver: What was your thing

Savanna Peters: It's it's kind of got like a little bit of everything that I didn't know what I wanted to do on set And that's why Gray Man was great as a Covid pa Kind of got to see everything ands Figure out what would I be interested in Um and that one just came to be and I've been loving it ever since

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh that's great Yeah We hear that a lot from people who start as PAs which I think almost starts as a pa but you get to see everything Figure out where you wanna be Mm-hmm I would make the same pitch for accounting I think that happens there too it's funny as you were talking it reminded me of that movie with George Clooney where he had to fly in and fire people all the Up in the air Up in the air Yeah So and the one scene where the guy was so mad about being laid off and then he said how much how much did they pay you to give up on your dream So when you said that you had that job that was paying you well and you thought oh I'll just do this Yeah Without admitting you were miserable about it Yeah

Savanna Peters: Yeah it's true And it was cuz I went from Making good money to back to minimum wage as a pa Right And if I ever got to the point where I wasn't unhappy again I would do it again in a [00:08:00] heartbeat because it made me realize that there's no amount of money that's worth it

Julie Harris Oliver: And it's so much easier to do before you have kids a mortgage

Savanna Peters: Oh I'm sure yes There yet it was a hundred percent of privilege of me being able to do that and also have you know some savings tucked away that I could make that that scary jump But I hope that if I was in that boat I could do it again knowing that I've done it before You know Yeah But but it is it was definitely a privilege to be able to Be brave Be brave Right be brave Do hard things Yeah All the Glenn and stuff Do hard things

Julie Harris Oliver: um had you worked together before

Sara Glaser: No no This was her first time and it was it was great Yeah Working with Savanna and getting to meet her and thrilled to hear that you had such a wonderful experience in the trainee program and that it it worked for you

Savanna Peters: Yes Likewise All the good things

Julie Harris Oliver: now as um I Most people would know just being on set that there are very few women doing either one of those two jobs Oh yeah That you're doing Yeah Um Sarah I'm gonna start with you How has your experience been uh being a woman in that role I mean is is that a terrible question I always feel terrible I ask people how what's like being a woman [00:09:00] doing this job But really I mean it's a real thing though

Sara Glaser: It's a very real thing And sometimes I've worked with people who are wonderful allies and other times I've been in rather toxic situations with individuals where I'm not treated well and they were not able to work for a female department head and it was one of those situations where I was like there were some communications and then it it became so that I actually couldn't run my department because anything I said would get turned around on me by this individual And I was like well thank God I had producers because I was able to go to that and be like but I had all that stress Mm-hmm and Past trauma you carry about oh my God do I speak up for myself and bring this to my producers Because you just never know after so many years in the industry whether they're going to Take your side and help you

Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm I mean is it you do they really mean that

Sara Glaser: There's gaslighting that [00:10:00] happens or like maybe you're reading this wrong and you're like you know um and it can bite you in the uh the rear as they say I don't know if you've got sensor in here or what We can say whatever I dunno But sometimes that you know standing up for yourself and and bringing up things that need to be addressed can can you know literally bite you in the ass kind of thing

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah Now did it take you years of experience to get to the point where you knew this isn't gonna get any better

Sara Glaser: Yeah You you you tend to learn that really early on what took years of experiences is speaking up about it Mm-hmm or not trying to be like oh maybe I can make this work It's not that long And you know we'll just hide it in the department and not tell people And that that never ends well no it really doesn't Yeah And yeah and but but it took so yeah that that's the part that I think we as women try to

Julie Harris Oliver: Um how has it been for you being a woman in a in a field where there aren't that many women And I'd love the the change of perspective you just got in Yeah How's that looking

Savanna Peters: I mean even just talking to Sara you're the first female sound mixer I've worked with and so that's my [00:11:00] question's always been on set Like if I work with the sound mixer where are the women that

Sara Glaser: Yeah Um I literally have been getting that on every show my whole career I went to go see a friend play at the Troubador and when he introduced me to his friend is a mixer the guy's like I never would've guessed that And it's Yeah

Julie Harris Oliver: You're not what a mixer looks like

Sara Glaser: 25 years I'm still getting that every day

Savanna Peters: definitely Yeah I would say I've I've had a lot of comments of I've never seen a female video assist before It's pretty common and I I've been fortunate It's if there is any sort of like discrimination I'm usually a one person department If anything there's two of us I've been very fortunate with the team That man in the box team that I've worked with Everybody's been great I feel like you you get ignorant comments here and there and it's one of those things like pick your battles At least that's from my perspective and hopefully as I like you said the older you get into it or just like the more maturity you have I feel like I'm still learning of like how do you speak up to your for yourself like when do you need to when do you don't So I mean something that I've been working on but it's definitely you notice it on set I've been very fortunate a lot of the [00:12:00] like CatchLight's team and even um been working with Hello Sunshine recently It's a very female focused like leadership team and so I love seeing that on set because those are the people who are in charge But you do I mean In terms of like crew I think you know which departments lean more heavily hooking like females and which don't And so hopefully as time goes on there's more and more And that's kind of my hope is the team that I work with There's one other woman that I know of and then primarily it's it's males And I hope that like if I get opportunities to bring people in or refer people that hopefully it's more females that get you and then maybe just seeing one on set You know you know that that's a role that a woman can do Not that if a man was doing it you couldn't But you know it's just more of

Julie Harris Oliver: if you can see it you can be it

Savanna Peters: There you go Who is that Jeanette's thing right

Sara Glaser: Representation matters I mean uh Savannah's the first female video assistant engineer I've worked with as well So you know it's it's it's good to they're we are both very underrepresented in our in our categories or or in our roles on set So it's yeah

Julie Harris Oliver: And it's so silly There's nothing gendered about the [00:13:00] job

Savanna Peters: It's not and so that's Sometimes I do wonder It's like why Why are there not more Is it because women don't see women doing it and so therefore they you know But that's such a weird thing I don't know what it is Well patriarchy Yeah No there's it's a whole separate topic

Sara Glaser: There's there's a lot of history in our union on sexism and is it and racism Yeah Course Um you know and this is traditionally you know a white male union mm-hmm like you know the the numbers for diversity on either ethnicity or gender for women in our local have um are things that we need are working

Julie Harris Oliver: Well let's take the optimistic tone for a moment Yes Are we seeing a little bit of progress

Sara Glaser: Yes we are in time Yes Yes No and that's the thing is like everybody um I mentioned in my bio on the board so I cannot divulge anything Obviously there's there's there's also but what I can say is um The the current board that we have is full of wonderful [00:14:00] people who all wanna see change and who um are very committed to that Wonderful So we have that now There's bureaucracy and everything else but we all wanna see change and we all are like how can we make this happen How can we how can we have more Savannas That's why we have the trainee program It's obviously worked for Savanna you know it's

Julie Harris Oliver: Here's the thing we're at a moment in time where there is more work than people to do it Like there's the opportunity now to let people in and it won't take anything away from anybody Not that it ever would but having the fear Yeah Yeah Okay great We can move on getting the call to do Project Green Light knowing that you were going to then be in reality show doing your job making the movie what on earth prompted you to take this job

Sara Glaser: Well I gotta say that was one of those moments where I was you know I'm I'm we're not usually in front of camera instead No Preferred that way Yeah and and you know [00:15:00] we there are moments on set behind behind uh below the line as they say or behind the scenes we're you know uh just uh film set is kind of a crazy place and And sometimes things happen We're losing the light What starts raining We're in the thing we're gonna lose our kid actor you know all sorts of crazy things And people are yelling and you know we might just be like working in a high pressure environment It's not necessarily toxic all the time but there there's there's like oh get this get this We rush But it may not be everyone being their best selves Yes And you're always like well I don't know that I want that document But then the flip side of that is as we discussed with um sexism stuff it's very easy to get gaslit in this industry All somebody has to say is oh that person was difficult whether it's true or not Mm-hmm So in some respect it's also like hmm well you know maybe you know if you get if you get on this and you are aware and you pe-people can actually see what you really like So there's [00:16:00] there's pros and cons but certainly being on camera was and and having knowing that there's always cameras around it's like it was it was a new experience

Julie Harris Oliver: And did you worry about what you looked like every day more than you would've

Sara Glaser: We tend to Savanna and I hide at our cart We tend we really do like we're not the most visible people on set So you're like look a lot like my boom upstairs out there Go fill these Exactly We'll go sit curl up We'll have we'll have our little coffee or tea or something and sit there with our machines and our headphones and like we're very boring on camera It kind of it kind of works for us

Julie Harris Oliver: It's like let us be as boring as possible

Sara Glaser: Sit at our carts and stare at our screens It's like it's not good tv Yeah

Savanna Peters: I was say I felt so um just that it didn't impact me as much quite honestly I kept joking with my parents I was like if you're gonna see me on camera at all it's me wrapping cables in the background while they're filming somebody else and I'm trying to like get out of their way and do my job So it really fascinating Exactly exactly So that for me at least was like the only thing it was [00:17:00] more of a joke on my end but I really I was gonna say cuz you were micd up I wasn't micd up

Sara Glaser: Yeah But like I mean nobody's gonna use The only time I would probably end up is like there were a couple times where I came to set to have a conversation with Miko our director where it was like Hey you know we're doing some kind of crazy wide and tight and I was like did we did we wanna do these at the same time Could we maybe do one or the other Like you know have you cuz they were really Really drastically different And having those conversations

Julie Harris Oliver: Could you explain wide and tight for our Sure Less verse So for the

Sara Glaser: last first oh a wide is what we call a master usually and it's it's the wide shot of the scene so we could be seeing everything from floor to ceiling you know it's like here is the place that we are here's the geography Now you know where And

Julie Harris Oliver: how would you mic someone for that Or would you boom How would you collect the sound

Sara Glaser: How would it yes Well um generally speaking on set we wire everybody because we always have different cameras We we always have more than one camera and we never know [00:18:00] what they're gonna shoot And so at any given time depending upon the sizes of the frames that we're shooting you have to adjust which microphones you can you know a wide and tight is when you shoot as I said a wide and the other is a tight meaning It could be a what we call talking head Mm-hmm you know just just super close up Um super closeups are great We can get the boom right above your head You sound great but when you shoot that at the same time as the wide the boom boom the boom and the boom operator might be in the wide right So you have to always protect the widest frame So um that's where you You know between my two boom operators I'm like okay well so when they come in the door out of the hallway we see everything that line will be on the wire and as they enter you know the frame is sort of on a on a on an angle and you can get the boom in there and bring her in And then as they walk around the table I've got my other boom op in the foreground and they'll pick it up And so you work out Who's gonna get what lines and it's a whole different set of choreography Whole different yeah And then there's there's other stuff like you know there might be a camera move there might be a lighting effect All these things that you [00:19:00] take into account So I have everybody wired I have all these booms out there I might have plant mics and I'm sitting at my cart I need to know which ones I bring up when so I'm mixing the scene live as we're filming it and everybody's listening Fascinating Yeah So That's what a wide and tight is

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh thank you That was great And that'd be so much more interesting than listen to on a podcast than to listen to you talk about that on a television

Sara Glaser: Right But but when I'm when I'm wearing a wire in my card it's very boring because I'm like oh okay So you get that line You get that line Okay so can we do something about those footsteps It's very boring

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you have any challenges that came up that you had to solve that that are never gonna make it into the TV show but that you had to work out on

Savanna Peters: set I think the the biggest thing that I dealt with mostly with camera was just getting the receivers to work and like transmit signal for for picture Yeah Um so a couple times we were working actually like what is it a remote hospital or like an an old hospital

Sara Glaser: Yeah It was the place that we [00:20:00] shot The the buildings the you know one of them is a former hospital and there's like lead and stuff in the walls So everything on set nowadays is wireless So between Savanna's um video transmitters and receivers and my wireless receivers we were moving our antennas all the time because we're like we'd go two rooms down and we'd lose everything and then we can't go through the lens Yeah yeah So like let's say they were old hospitals but from like the back times where it was like So much radiation and stuff So they had like you know lead and stuff in the walls and they just like the construction of the actual building we were in was challenging to our to thank goodness we weren't running cables and doing duplex because

Savanna Peters: yeah And yeah so we I just remember that hallway specifically We shot in the hallway and at one point they're like we're every nothing is safe Usually you'd put it on one side of the hallway they're shooting down you know

Sara Glaser: but we had multiple cameras in the hallway so you'd have one camera looking down the hallway this way and another onlooking the other way So it was like okay what is the one Behind any X-axis where neither camera sees it and we were putting our antennas there [00:21:00] Yeah

Savanna Peters: So I was very we had a great camera team and so yeah I I team worked with them quite often of figuring out Hey where's gonna be safe One that we're not seen and then also where's safe that we're not gonna lose picture And then if we were the producer team was great it was more of just communicating with them Hey here's the situation We're gonna have picture for this amount of time and then we might lose it And so a lot of it was just figuring out what would and wouldn't work and then communicating

Sara Glaser: and this Like when when I don't know if you'd shot there before but I have shot on that campus It's my third or fourth film there I I think I don't know I'd have to camp anyway so when I went into the um interview with Yolanda and she told me we were gonna shoot I immediately said one trains Trains will rule our life in our shoot which they did And they were like oh there's just this I'm like no be prepared for more trains I was like and then also understand that the buildings are built with all this and we will have radio frequency interference from for every department that uses wireless So so they were aware of that going in Yeah A very handy interview [00:22:00] It's it's helpful when you've shot it someplace before and you can um share your experience Yeah To prepare for things that might come up

Julie Harris Oliver: For sure I'm realizing would you please explain what Video Assist is Yeah

Savanna Peters: Yeah Yeah so Video assist how can I do it succinctly Um we're basically in charge of all the monitors on set so depending on who needs it uh director village producer village um and then we will get a picture feed from the camera and then run line so that everybody else has picture And then what I do while we're shooting is I record anything that we're filming so that if anybody wants to see it back for continuity or just Hey we wanted to see that take I can play it back at any time

Sara Glaser: She also gets my mix Yes So I get all sound and she gets all picture and sound and then you know she records that So if they do wanna see playback they can get playback with picture and sound to check performance and focus and anything else they want to check

Julie Harris Oliver: And for someone who is new on set or hasn't been on set yet is there any protocol around who can sit in the video villages

Savanna Peters: or uh yeah I would say it really depends like on each [00:23:00] set Mm-hmm But typically the way I've seen it is usually at like director's card It would be the director Maybe the first ad and then depending on again if there's like a D I T which I'm even blanking on what that stands for but they're usually doing like the coloring and stuff like that with the the dp the director of photography Um but they would usually have their own section On this one we didn't have a D I T so the DP and the director were usually together watching on that The script super Oh script super as well Yeah Um and then at Producer Village is usually any like the leadership team producers might be there UPM if they pop into set Um trying to think of who else

Sara Glaser: Writers sometimes yeah sometimes not not much on a feature but on television

Savanna Peters: I was gonna say Yeah Yeah

Julie Harris Oliver: So if you're pa and it's your first day show do you plop yourself in front of the monitor

Sara Glaser: The old rule is never sit on a chair that doesn't have your name on it

Savanna Peters: I will say there is usually a PA at Producer Village cuz they're usually relaying you know any sort of communication notes that might come from that

Sara Glaser: But that's true But they don't get to sit in the chairs No [00:24:00] usually not They'll get apple boxes

Julie Harris Oliver: There you go I heard that it was a really Quick shoot and a lot of it was overnight How how did that affect your ability to do your job

Savanna Peters: Just sleepy all the time

Sara Glaser: Yeah Very sleep deprived Um long days,uh lots of coffee Anytime we had long night long light setups or something like that or we were you know costume changes for days I was napping at my cart on the by the end of the week not at the beginning of the week but by the end of the week it catches up to you Certainly like when we're working our Saturdays which is Friday into Saturday at like 4:00 AM on Saturday morning or everybody's tired just Friday Yeah yeah

Savanna Peters: We had some pretty cause usually like if you have like a split maybe you start at one but we had some pretty Usually it was pretty consistently Monday to Friday 6:00 PM starts

Sara Glaser: Yeah So that was a little rough But other than that it's just working in the dark So [00:25:00] running cables making sure you're not stepping in potholes and stuff like that

Julie Harris Oliver: I can imagine people have to be super careful when everybody's tired and it's dark and Yeah You could make mistakes

Sara Glaser: Yeah Your biggest thing then is you know cuz we were shooting in Pomona and I think the majority of the crew lived in Los Angeles Yeah Um they they did offer hotel rooms for some of us but um you know not everybody can take them whether they have family or pets or whatever other kind of commitments Mm-hmm So you know it's long hours are are the nature of the business whether you like it or not that is the business Uh so then it it it was the long hours and the drive and um sleep It's pretty standard You know that was everything about the film was lovely I think the only part that everybody really had trouble with was the the drive and the hours and the slate which is what it is

Savanna Peters: Yeah I would say two a couple times You don't think about it until you actually need help but if you need a phone a friend for anything or maybe you need to get ahold of somebody for equipment it's really not an option until the next day So we had a couple times right where With camera like where [00:26:00] a receiver went out and it was like well we can't do anything We can't until the morning

Sara Glaser: Yeah At midnight Yeah You can't get ahold of anybody Yeah And then uh not until you wake up and then and then you can let them know but then if we needed it picked up that Afternoon

Savanna Peters: like yeah you're trying to sleep but then you have to

Sara Glaser: Transpo is already in Pomona you know so they're they'll pick it up the maybe the next morning on their way And so there's like a two day Just because you know you're not on days when you're working nights It's harder Yeah It's tough

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah How do you knowing that is freelance and it's job to job how do you stay networked Get networked set yourself up so that you keep working

Savanna Peters: That's a good question I think I mean like I I would really like to know Yes Yeah please gimme that answer

Sara Glaser: I I think you're just you're always networking You're always meeting people and making friends and doing the best job you can on set And you know people like your work They like you let people know when you're available Tell people to share your name You know I mean I don't have a magic answer on that [00:27:00]

Savanna Peters: That's all I got Yeah I think it's just trying to stay in front of people Like the little things whether that's like an email update or around Christmas time you know holiday time or whatever I've been very fortunate because I came in with Dempsey and he's got Man on the Box so it's almost like a team of 15 that we all can't help each other out Right But then I think too it's like the people that are hiring you so like the producers um I've been very fortunate with CatchLight I think I've worked three jobs with them this year Okay And so They've kept me in mind and great shout out to them They've been great Um so yeah some of it is finding a team and then figuring out like how do you stay in front of them Because it's it's one thing you can do a great job and I believe that somebody would remember you right But it's so quick that they might work with somebody else who's great or maybe they just somebody else refers somebody in And so being able to know that They're your first call and staying in front of 'em as much as possible because it could be a year before they need someone again Exactly Yeah And they you still might be their favorite whatever video assist sound mixer but if at that time when they needed somebody for whatever reason you they slipped your mind mm-hmm just the ability to make sure that they know that you're around and wanna work with them again

Sara Glaser: Yeah I think a lot of it was like [00:28:00] just You have to part of the business is just finding your people Mm-hmm um you're gonna work with some people you won't necessarily click with or it won't be as smooth You you you'll still do a good job you'll still make a movie but you know they're not your vibe Yeah They're not vibrating at your frequency you know however you wanna fit that You know they're they're a different crystal chakra Yeah exactly You know it's la go with it So so you know but once you once you find your people and you just kinda like get in sync and you tend to like stay with those people for a bit you know until until you didn't So you you the goal I think is to definitely keep growing that network and grow with these people who are your sink your chakra crystal or whatever and um you know find your family and and and and then it kind of I think It gets smoother and then you're you're just I mean there there are people that we've come up with and they just worked with certain producers for for years [00:29:00] Especially in television you know where you just you get in a groove and you do seasons and I think features are a little different Yeah 10 years go by Yeah But I think if you got like five or six directors in features at least you know that's a lot And then if they're all doing if they're all got stuff in development and they're all doing you know every other one of them's doing a different like a feature or two a year like you could do two features and two features and two features and three years with six directors and Figure however many years of development one year for shooting one year for post you can you've been on rotation Yeah Yeah That's the goal Always have always have people who you're in rotation with

Savanna Peters: Rotation with I would say too though don't how do you say this Like I had a lighting guy that I just hit it off with one of my first movies and he a year later now reached out to me and he's a dp and so don't be surprised that no matter what role somebody might be in a role where they could hire you one day so oh I did

Sara Glaser: I did a feature last year that I had um a boom op come in and when I told my uh line producer who was coming in as the boom op he just looked me he's like so he's my line [00:30:00] producer on this movie Mm-hmm And when he got my boom ops name he was like he was the boom op on the first feature I worked as a pa And so when Boom Op came in was like he was a Pa Yeah Signing my checks like always you know and that's how it worked Yeah yeah You know so They say always be nice You never know be nice I mean never be nice anyway Badly They are the hardest working people on set Yeah

Julie Harris Oliver: What is your favorite memory from this last job Gray Matter

Savanna Peters: It feels like a blur honestly because of the night shoots Yeah

Sara Glaser: My favorite memory Okay I have one Okay Oh go All right So I don't I don't know if this is what you're looking for We'll say Everybody was absolutely lovely It was a joy to come to work every day Uh we covered the bit where we were all tired That's the part that we didn't mind but coming to work and the people we're working with and and how they were were just they were absolutely lovely and there's always a bit on set where there's some scene or something where you're just like oh my God this [00:31:00] one is just I love it It's hilarious And for me that was so there's a scene where um there's a bit of scenes where you know man in black is the character and he's um he's kind of in her brain manipulating her Perception of reality And we did a bit where we went into this It was like the it felt like the 1950s sitcom set vibe Yeah And Jessica was Fantastic I mean everybody was fantastic but she remember that performance Yes I do actually remember yeah It was like she came out and she was like ha and she just went for it and she did it so well and I just I thought I really enjoyed when we were she just watching her performance I enjoyed her performance and everything She's a fantastic actress but for whatever reason I just got a kick outta shooting the sitcom

Savanna Peters: the sitcom I've never done anything like a sitcom And so it was funny to see like the stage setup up [00:32:00] and be like oh this is this is it Like this is what I've watching growing up Right And now you're here on the other side of it seeing it get filmed That was

Sara Glaser: We used that We actually inside the movie Yeah And we and we were actually shooting it like we were the crew So actually I had my boom ops just put the boom in the shot cuz Miko was cold And she's like no actually all right we that works But it was that bit where you know for all of us who grew up on sitcoms and especially the sixties and seventies sitcoms it's like the it's not understated acting Mm-hmm And we were doing that in a lot of the films So we gotta the sitcom set it was such a It's such a contrast and so fun and so you know she did It was I just I had so much fun watching that like there were so many great performances before whatever reason Now one just always fix me That's so funny

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah It's not Understated acting

Sara Glaser: No I was almost like where's it you enjoying the scenery And I say that nicely You know cuz it's just like You know that was one of those moments where they were calling for the the the point was the big [00:33:00] performance Yes That's like ha It was great It was it was I loved it That's fine That woke everybody up Up Yeah

Savanna Peters: Yeah Yeah That was a good day Um okay I thought of mine so I think mine was actually one of my harder days on set I don't know if you remember when we filmed in the like the cabbage patch film kind of or uh farm area Oh no It was like the offroad So I got very fortunate the the camera loader a guy named Kurt He just anytime cuz it was just myself So at times we had longer runs and he was always willing to help and we kept having issues with the receivers So the funny I just remember running through Cabbage Patch fields trying to run cables Yeah and it was absolute chaos and it I mean we would get it to work but it was it was like every time I would sit down I would just be like there's no other job at least that I know of where I'd be doing something like this Right Of just I'm trying to get picture and I'm running like leaping through cabbage patches Yeah

Sara Glaser: that day day was hard and that that day was hard for my department and we had two people that day Mm-hmm I didn't I didn't [00:34:00] because it was like between me I was jumping cabbage patches and running cables for the antenna too With you And you you were doing it by yourself You were a one person department so that that day that was a big day Yeah Yeah That was that was I think that was hard for

Savanna Peters: everybody actually Yeah I think so I remember we went long too cuz we went into lunch for a bit Oh We didn't get to lunch till we were fighting for the light And there are days like that where it's harder there And then I've found at least for myself there's times where I would've never considered myself even like a technical person And then I walk away kind of proud of myself on the day of like oh my gosh we did it we made it work And it was hard But uh it's something like I can walk away and be proud of it Yeah

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean is that kind of the fun of it That I mean super hard during the day but you accomplish impossible things every day in insane situations

Savanna Peters: Mm-hmm Yeah Yeah And it I always when I came from my last job too so it was like it staffing and my boss used to always tell me we're not operating on somebody So at the end of the day things are okay We're we're not gonna lose somebody today Right We're not carrying cancer

Sara Glaser: Don't wanna be working on the sets where we lose

Savanna Peters: people No no [00:35:00] God no Yeah No but so there are times where Obviously it's time sensitive situations and I wanna get picture up but I always try to have that reminder of nobody's dying right now like try to stay calm It's gonna help me work better and work more efficient as long as I'm not freaking out here Yeah Yeah The

Sara Glaser: perspective is important Yeah That this that day was one of those days where It it was the farm set I don't know what there were all kinds of things pouring cabbage and broccoli whatever It was just literally in a field of of a farm field Yeah You know and it was like it was one of those days where like this was the location and we wanted to see all of it for so so much of it was shot in wides where we were shooting the fields Yes So we couldn't be anywhere close you know Um it was either we're next to the cameras or we're completely far away And for us it was like well we need power so where's the power drop Yeah Yeah And the power drop was far far away Yeah So we were far far away and promoting our antennas through the cabbage patch or whatever was growing and [00:36:00]

Savanna Peters: It really is figuring out like what you're tied to So many things you kind of have to find where's the perfect middle while also not being in shot

Sara Glaser: Yeah And uh and and then of course it wasn't like once you got it set up that you stayed there for a while Like we kept we got this direction okay now we're gonna change this direction move everything again Okay now we see you move everything So we were like moving every few shots It was just it was it was one of those days

Savanna Peters: Yeah Yeah It was a tough day But we got it done

Sara Glaser: We did We did And just go home exhausted Yeah exactly We shot every every moment of daylight we had that day and then we went to lunch Oh yeah You're

Julie Harris Oliver: just smiling now Was there a crying a cry on that shoot

Savanna Peters: No No Cry Maybe some like do you ever get when you're just almost like a cranky baby Like it would when I was home where I would get home and just be like I can't fall asleep I'm so tired That sort of thing But luckily made it through I try not to cry on Can I help it Hey no problem Then you talk to yourself you feel like we're [00:37:00] almost there We're almost there

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God Oh all right I feel like I wanna ask I'm gonna ask you one final question when we're done but have is there something I didn't ask you about that I should have asked you about

Savanna Peters: Not that I can think of off the top of my head

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay Then let's do our martini shot which will know the last shot of the day What advice would you give to someone who is trying to get into what you do and do that video

Savanna Peters: So specifically Mm-hmm it's it's hard I don't know too many like tangible skills to like Get prior to getting into it I felt like I was very fortunate You really kinda have to get your foot in the door and learn learn on the job One thing um that one of the guys did tell me is learn to over under cable So much of my job is just wrapping cable and so I would Google that and learn how to do that and be really good at it Um other than that Really just finding your way onto a set and talk to as many people as you can I've found that that worked for me Um and eventually someone's gonna give you your shot is the [00:38:00] hope right I feel like that's not the greatest advice but it really is the only advice I know cuz other than I guess calling the local and trying to get into either whether it's a trainee program or getting on their list the best ways to meet the person that's doing it So that would be my

Sara Glaser: Thank you Mm-hmm we're very much obviously our positions are technical our union is technical um it's production sound and video engineering and projectionists So you have to be able to troubleshoot you have to be able to understand signal flow You have to have whether you have a basis in engineering or not you have to be able to have the type of thought process or brain where you can look at a problem and problem solve it and just you know start at one end and work your way through till you figure that And you have to be able to do that under pressure cuz that is the job And when you get asked to do things at the last minute where you're like oh by the way can you do You gotta be able to figure that out and be all right Let me see Maybe I [00:39:00] can let me see what I've got Let me see what I can make happen Let me see what because you tried for Yes You tried for Yes Um and sometimes you're like well I can give you this and this but um it's 2:00 AM and I don't have this piece of equipment but if we can get it tomorrow production wants to rent it we can get that part for you the next day because that's with one that's a surprise That's an you know thing So Definitely definitely gotta be able to keep a cool head I mean I I started in in music in studios and um I also worked briefly in live sound You are not able to ever lose your shit The show must always go on So no matter what's going on your job is to problem solve and to make sure everything can go on and to do it calm and cool collected because they don't ever if you lose your stuff they lose faith in you Thyy get to lose their stuff cuz they don't know what's going on whatever But they trust you to handle everything else

Julie Harris Oliver: Who is they in this scenario

Sara Glaser: Everybody [00:40:00] from the artist to the producers So you know the people who are like we hired you you can't play It's it's just they want to see that their technicians are calm they're cool they're collected They're like they're like comp,itent but they're like oh you did Oh Oh that's weird Yeah yeah Give us a second We'll get that running for you You know just like you stability you know trust There's a lot of that there So certainly Not everybody starts off with that and you that is but that is certainly some of the skills that you will need moving forward in this job And then be nice be easy people to work with Have an open mind Um there's there's not one way to do anything There's lots of different ways and sometimes you're inventing new ways on set So adaptability a lot of things This is this is not um an industry where there's only one way to do anything and it's never gonna change That's that's something you you're saying that Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah

Julie Harris Oliver: For sound engineering can you learn that on the [00:41:00] job or do you recommend people have a little education first

Sara Glaser: I will always advocate for education but I also say that you learn that on the job and you know I I went to school for a recording engineering songwriting and music business and that is it was one of the early programs cuz actually having schools for these is relatively new too And I feel like uh a lot of times depending where you go for that a lot of the education is like here's the language we use now You know what these words mean Mm-hmm you know somebody says oh go you know use the Patch Fe or find aScope So it's like I don't even know what the hell that is you know So a lot of it is a language learning the roles you know if you've never been in a studio before but then when you get into a studio or onto a film set or onto a like once you get hired at your first job that's when they start training you know Because what we do is a craft So you will your first job is really truly in an apprenticeship And you will be trained and you'll be trained at how they do things They've got another job they'll train you And how they do you're constantly learning until you you know a certain point [00:42:00] you have the confidence and you know you've been doing this for ages you know you've been in different situations and tested yourself and I think that goes for your position too because we're always going to be asked to do things in a different manner I mean we might be on a stage on a lot one day we might be in a jungle the next day but they still want you know us to give top quality stuff in the same place Like just cuz we're in a jungle with no power doesn't mean that we don't still have to deliver the same um level of performance in the same product So the part where we figure out how to make that happen it's a large part of the job Yeah yeah yeah

Savanna Peters: I would say too to add to my advice my advice is only coming from my perspective So there could be I'm only thinking cuz like you said there's like education based for sound There could be for video that I'm not aware of And so my idea of it being like you have to be on the Was just my based on my perspective So there could be more schooling that I just don't even know about

Sara Glaser: Absolutely And well the thing is is we're in a technical field so it's our equipment [00:43:00] how we approach things it changes all the time You know we went from film to video we went from tape to hard disk you know and and anytime you're working with a director who wants to shoot in a new way or developed some new motion capture thing we're we're doing new technology So you you are never outta school You're always learning So you know you you just just get on set with what you know and learn Learn as you go you know Because it's you're never if you ever think that you're done learning you should retire you're done Yeah Because the industry will move on without you

Julie Harris Oliver: Because I would bet even if you learn video says say in film school or something mm-hmm you're still gonna learn a ton of things once you get on set

Savanna Peters: Oh a hundred percent I feel like anytime I work with somebody new it's the the end goal and like what we're doing is usually the same It's just there's different paths to get there And so that's the fun thing At least for me I enjoy working with another one like another video assist It's not as common but I like it because then I keep learning new ways to do different things

Julie Harris Oliver: That's great What are you both looking forward to the most

Savanna Peters: Um I think in this industry working on um more complicated [00:44:00] shoots So some of our team works with like Marvel or there's more VFX involved and that's where our job gets a lot more complicated Mm-hmm cuz you're working with different plates screen screens Um so that's a world I haven't dove into yet and I'm hoping that as I get Better and you know get more skilled under my belt that I get more opportunities like that Um I think those will be a lot more every shoot's different in terms of how much playback they ask for how much they don't And so sometimes it's very engaging sometimes less so And so to be on the shoot like that where we are pretty heavily involved would be an exciting world for me and I hope to get there someday

Sara Glaser: I think it's just You know I love what I do um and I love the part where it's different every day So working more on you know I think we all always wanna work on good projects and you always wanna work It's like oh that was a good one And you're just eye on the sky and you're like oh I want really good ones And moving up and higher level of quality and bigger challenges and you know more demands and you know where you can really kind of stretch and grow and just um being able to be proud of what you've worked [00:45:00] You know um it's always kind of fun when somebody's like oh I saw that movie and you're like oh I'm like oh they love it It's always kind It's a good moment I'm glad that something I worked on you know brought you joy It's it's you know a little part of that and they might never ever watch the credits but um it's kind of it's a cool feeling That's great

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you both so much Thank you Savanna Peters Sara Glazer thank you Thank you for being here

Savanna Peters: Thanks for having us

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you guys This has been Catch A Break project Greenlight Edition I'm Julie Harris Oliver I'd like to thank our guests Savanna Peters and Sara Glazer And special thanks to croy.com a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide.

Please check out our website at Catch a break podcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Joscelyn. Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

[00:46:00] Next up, we start dipping into post-production with Erica Djafroodi the post supervisor, and Byron Wong, the editor in the meantime I hope this helps you to catch a break.

EP 408: The Costume Designer and Hair Stylist

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at CatchaBreakpodcast.com and all the social media places at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. The presenting sponsor of season four of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot featuring a New York and LA downtown street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices along with post-production space.

Dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all of their clients. Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need, any budget. Find them atsantaclaritastudios.com. We are continuing our Project Greenlight series where we talk to the [00:01:00] cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

We are dropping new episodes every day. So if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 4 0 1. In this episode, I sat down with Rhonda O'Neal, the hair stylist, and Rahima Yoga, the wardrobe designer. Let me just say, it is a miracle that even took this job, considering the phone call from the UPM seemed so suspicious, but I'll let them explain.

Okay. Have a listen.

Welcome to Catch a Break. I'm here today with Rhonda O'Neal and Rahima Yoba. Rhonda O'Neal is the founder of Beyond the Combs Academy, located in the heart of la. She, along with her many amazing instructors, help prepare others, especially people of color, to work in Hollywood. Not only does the Academy help prepare others, but it also teaches continual educational classes to learn how to work easily with textured hair and the blending of correct.

Rhonda is also the author of Beyond the Combs, a Celebrity Hairstylist Guide to Success. It's her story from Houston to Hollywood. She's been a mentor and has spoken on [00:02:00] several panels in schools. After following in her mother's footsteps as a hairstylist, she never dreamed she would be here. Rhonda has worked on some of the biggest productions such as Pirates of the Caribbean, Indiana Jones, Nightmare on Elm Street, and shows such as Modern Family, Brooklyn 99, NCIS LA, the Upshaw's Reno 9 1 1, just to name a few.

Some of her personal clients have been Solange, Andre Brower, Condoleeza Rice, and others. Rhonda has been a member of Local 706 Hairstylist and Makeup Artist Union since 2003, and for two terms, she was their hair craft President. Welcome, Rhonda.

Rhonda O'Neal: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me here.

Julie Harris Oliver: We also have Rahima Yoba.

She combines artistry and attention to detail to the costume she creates for feature films and television productions. Bringing both the writer and director's vision to life is a collaborative process that inspires her passion for design. Shortly after graduating from New York's prestigious Fiorello H. LaGuardia High School of Music and Art, and the Performing Arts.

Hello, fame! Rahima began her costume [00:03:00] journey in the film and TV industries lending her first gig on the hit TV series, New York Undercover. She became fascinated with the art of telling stories through costumes. Currently, she's creating costumes for the Sterling Affairs, the FX Limited series about the controversial former owner of the Los Angeles Clippers, the six part series will star at O'Neal as Donald Sterling Lawrence Fishburn is Doc Rivers and Jackie Weaver as Shelly Sterling Raheem's. Television credits also include the neighborhood, none of the Above Empire and the True Crime Series unsolved the murders of Tupac and the Notorious BIG.

Her film credits include Gray Matter, Project Greenlight, and Uncorked the feature directorial debut from Insecure Showrunner Prentice Penny. Raheem's, most recent action packed thriller end of the road starring Queen Latifa and Chris Ludacris. Bridges will air this September on Netflix. She's based in LA and is a member of the costume Designer's Guild Local 892. She's represented by United Talent Agency. Welcome, Rahima.

Rahima Yoba: Thank you for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what I'm gonna ask both of you, first of all, which is what [00:04:00] we always do, is what was your first job in this business and how did you get it? And I'll start with Rhonda.

Rhonda O'Neal: Oh wow. Thank you again so much for having me here. My first job was Access Hollywood, another actor.

She was one of my clients and she referred Sean Robinson from Access Hollywood to my salon, and I started doing her on set, on red carpets. Every red carpet there is from the Oscars to the Grammys. And I didn't realize how wonderful that was and how blessed I was to have that be in that position. Now that Instagram is out, everybody wants to do it.

So, but I started there. She invited me to the studio to work and I worked with her for eight years and that's how I got my days to into the union. The rest is history.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you were working with a salon and didn't, weren't thinking about, let me get into film and tv.

Rhonda O'Neal: Not at all. I didn't even know what it was. I was getting writers, [00:05:00] producers, and couple, couple, few actresses and, Garcel Bufe actually, she referred Sean Roberton to me and I, , I was like, what is this? Why am I leaving my salon and working in on set is in interrupting my day? actually because I had three kids remember, so I'm having to go do clients at 5:30 in the morning. That are normally eight o'clock clients. And then I had to feed it over there to access Hollywood for 8:30.

And the good thing is they, they worked half a day in entertainment news. So then I ran and picked up my kids, went home, dropped them off. go back to the salon. So I guess that's why I, my like, oh my God, what is this? So it it, it was good for me though. ,

Julie Harris Oliver: How long did you do both of those jobs before you figured, oh, I can just do this entertainment business full-time?

Rhonda O'Neal: After we bought our house [00:06:00] off of those checks, I said, this is not a bad thing to do. Like, this is working out, it's working out. , let me do this. And . So it, no, it, and I see some of my clients to this day and they're always side eyeing me, so, oh well , sorry. No, I, Hollywood called . It really did, and it's been, it's been a great ride though. It's been a great ride.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's great. Okay, Rahima, how about you? What was your first job and how did you get it?

Rahima Yoba: My first job was on New York Undercover in 1994. I was about 22 and my brother was on the show. He was starring in the show and it was about a black cop and a Puerto Rican, , detective, rather, from New York and I was working at a, I think I was working at Century 21, the clothing store, and I was just so miserable and I was like, I can't do this anymore. He's like, why don't you come down and just hang out on set? [00:07:00] And I was on set and I was like, what is this ? Because I had done like music videos when I was a little younger.

Like I used to go skip school and do hip hop dancing and hip hop music videos when it was just about hip hop, but not video vixen. So I understood the art of like filming and behind the scenes. But to see like a film set, like I had never been on a TV show set or a film set. So I was just like so fascinated.

And he was like, well, what kind of job do you wanna do? I said, I don't know, maybe I'll work in the art department. Cuz I went to music and art high school and I studied visual art. I didn't realize that the art department designed the sets. They didn't spend their days painting, which is what I thought the art department was.

Yeah. So I started off. Intern and a PA in the art department on New York Undercover. But then there was kind of nothing for me to do because I wasn't in the union. So the wardrobe department needed help and they would just see me kind of hanging around, playing on my Game Boy all day. . [00:08:00] And I started working with Wardrobe, so I started off as an intern, then I became a pa, and then it's a lot easier to join the union in New York.

So I was able to join the customers union pretty quickly, like I think 30 or 60 days after. Oh, and then you just worked your way up to become a costume designer. That's, no, it didn't kind of work out like that. I, I, I just wanted a better job. I was very like, , artistic child and it wasn't really supported. , I grew up Muslim, so you know, I had to like pray five times a day.

I was like in hijab on the set. If you can imagine having to stop work to pray five times a day. They were like, you can only get away with this cuz your brother's a star of the show. . So . But, so I didn't really have a direction to be honest with you. I wanted to be a dancer. But again, because I was Muslim, I couldn't be a dancer, so I kind of just settled for something entertaining.

And then the job ended because of hiatus. And the people that I met were [00:09:00] like, Hey, we're gonna go work on the Spike Lee show and movie, and then we're gonna work on this. And I just kind of like was being pulled in different directions, if you will. It, it's kind of a late bloomer, but, so that was my beginning.

I didn't really have a plan. It was just like, I'll just keep working a wardrobe. And then 2004, I think it was, I was telling a friend of mine how I wanted to start designing because that felt like that would be more my lane than just regurgitating someone else's idea. It's nothing wrong with being a customer, obviously.

That's how I started off, but I just felt like I was too creative to just like, watch people on set and make sure they didn't have lint on their clothes , or make sure their clothes were steamed. So that's kind of how I eventually, the director like literally came up to me and he was like, I want you to design my next film.

And I was like, did you just overhear a conversation? He's like, no. I just thought of it like, I think you're talented. Which I don't know how he figured that out because I hadn't like, oh, I think something happened on set where I had to change someone's outfit. Because I think somebody had a logo on it and [00:10:00] he kind of liked what I put together.

That's what it was. So then I started designing, but it was never like a passion until I started doing it. And then I was like, this is, I get to create people . So that's kinda how it went.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then you're like, this is my jam. Yeah. Turns out that, that's so interesting to me that you were, were you trying to pray five times a day on set?

Rahima Yoba: It wasn't trying. That was just part of my religion. My brother, he, people didn't know this. His name is Malik Yoba, but his full name is Abdul Malik Yoba . And do you know him? Ronda?

Rhonda O'Neal: I have not worked with him, but you all look just alike. So I figured that's who it was. I know. I'd love to work with him.

It's like once I say it,

Rahima Yoba: yeah, he's a, he's a, I discovered later, like way after the show was over, I was like, he's a really good actor. My mom's like, are you kidding me? He's excellent. I used to love that show. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it was nothing like it. It was, , because [00:11:00] there weren't any shows where you saw a black man as a detective.

Like you usually saw a black man or a Puerto Rican guy, which Michael De Loredo played his partner. They were the criminals in most of these TV shows, so it was unique in that way. And then they wore like all hip hop gear, like the latest of every designer that was out back then. You know, whether it was FUBU or Peli Peli or Sean John or Fat Farm and the singing. Yeah. And then it was the Right,

Rhonda O'Neal: and they introduced a lot of the, A lot of the newcomers. Yep, exactly. I coming up a lot of the artists, which was a wonderful

Rahima Yoba: show. Yeah. I feel like I met everyone from like Aaliyah to like Tina Marie to like, I even think Hall N oates won. Was was on the show once, like cuz? I think so,

Rhonda O'Neal: yeah. Oh wow. So what a fun that was a fun

Rahima Yoba: experience. Yeah. And it was my first time, so I was like, this is what it's like. And then I was like, oh wait. Not every show is like this

Julie Harris Oliver: Amazing. Wow, what a great entree. And [00:12:00] it, it makes me think of a whole, a whole nother level of, , inclusion on set that I hadn't thought about before.

If people are actually needing to stop to pray, and I imagine it's not terribly friendly for people trying to do that.

Rahima Yoba: Yeah, and I guess cuz I was so young, I didn't know any better. I didn't know. Like I can't even imagine doing that now. I don't practice Islam anymore, but I can't imagine. I'm like, hold on a second.

I know I have a fitting, but I need to because you, you don't just pray when you're Muslim. Like you don't just sit there and start praying. You have to go do oo, which is the washing. So I would have to go to the bathroom that all the extras would be in, and I'm like using up the sink water, trying to like do my. When I think about it now, it's kinda crazy that I did that and it was quite,

Julie Harris Oliver: Can you imagine. Hold the shot!

Rahima Yoba: Hold on a second. I'll do last looks after I do my last prayer, but I was a PA at the time so I guess it kind of didn't matter cuz I wasn't like in the union. But it was, I think about it now because, you know you're there for back then, that's when we worked [00:13:00] like easily 16 hours.

Yeah. And I probably had to pray at least four times while I was there. You know, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Rhonda, talk to us about, , Beyond the Combs. Cause I know we are in this mo not in this moment, I'm sure. We've been this way for the last a hundred years in a crisis of not having enough professionals to really care for black hair and makeup in the business.

And so I know you're trying to. Help resolve that and, and provide support. So tell us about your organization.

Rhonda O'Neal: Beyond the Combs Academy. What that is is basically it's, it's a hub. I call it a hub. It's where people can come learn and. , gather together because I say it in that way because we, as artists, we, we learn best with our hands.

And so I've made a place where I can help prepare people to get into this industry. And as you said, there has not been enough people of [00:14:00] color to do what we need sufficiently on set. It's not that it's not enough people, period. It's just not enough people that can do our hair to do people of color, not just course thick hair, but I've got, I get calls from producers to help facilitate. To either bring on other hair and makeup teams, or if I'm available to do Puerto Rican hair. So their hair or mixed hair is not that it has to be thick. It's just a matter of there are not enough people that can do textured hair. Any, many textures, right?

So during the pandemic, which I had already been working on and talking through with one of my good friends, from the Urban League, Los Angeles Urban League President Michael Lawson, and I was gonna work with him, but what I was doing was a little different from what they do in the entertainment section of the Urban League. So I said, let me just do [00:15:00] this on my own with my team of instructors, which one of my instructors is the, the first black male hairstylist to enter into the union.

That's one of my instructors. He's,, Robert Stevenson since 1969. I have the second. Makeup artist to enter into the union and a number of other wonderful, talented instructors. And everybody is not an instructor. Everybody can't teach. So I've been blessed to have a number of people that were able and available to teach people that are willing, that are ready to come into the union.

They're not just coming outta cosmetology schools. Some of these people are personals to save somebody like, naomi Campbell, I'm just using a name. So these are pair people and makeup people that are, have been trying to get into the union and just don't know how. And [00:16:00] so I'm there to help prepare them because hair and makeup, what we do on sets, any part of the crew, it's not business as usual.

So it's, there's no book for it. Basically, you have to have experience, right, to be able to teach that. And so that's what I do when you get that call, I want to have you prepared and ready.

Julie Harris Oliver: How do people find

you?

Rhonda O'Neal: So you can go to either your IG. Beyond the Combs Academy and find me. There are, the website is beyondthecombs.academy.

What we do at the academy is we teach, we prepare hair, makeup, wardrobe, as well as stunt performers to get into the union. And you can come there and learn continuing education. You can learn braiding, weaving. You can learn how to put on a ponytail. We can, we also have a four Day Hollywood course that can help teach you how to read scripts, break down, break down a script, read call sheets, and things of that nature.

As [00:17:00] well as learn textured hair, learn how to wig application. So there are so many things that you can learn - barbering, you can learn how to barber grooming. Keep in mind, one of the specialties is definitely textured hair. So, um, come there whenever you can. Located in the heart of Lamar Park, 4310 Crenshaw Boulevard in Los Angeles.

So

Julie Harris Oliver: all the things, everything. Oh, that's wonderful. Okay, great. Everyone should go sign up now. When you got the call for this job, you know you're doing an independent film, but then also you're doing Project Greenlight, which is on camera while you're doing your job. Why on Earth did you agree to do this?

Rhonda O'Neal: Well, I was, I got the call to be department head and , then when, I guess when the producers called me in, they had read my resume and then they said that I was basically, they didn't use the term but, kind of overqualified , and could [00:18:00] we find someone else to, could I actually find, maybe use my students to do it?

And I said, okay, that'd be good. But they, they gave me the script. And when I read the script, I loved it. And I said that I would, I would like to do it. And I was able to bring one of my students on since it was textured hair. And so I, I basically said yes, I wanted to do it. And when I fell in love with this script.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great. What about you, Rahima?

Rahima Yoba: When I got the call, what was that? I was sleeping actually , and they had, , I guess they had a DI diversity. I was signed up on a diversity list. I had signed up for a few of 'em as they were like being emailed to me throughout the, kind of like throughout the pandemic, all of these diversity lists for production companies were being, um, issued for people of color, et cetera.

And I, uh, got the call and I didn't, I usually know. Everyone that I'm working with, or at least the producers or someone involved, and I knew no one. So at first, you know, I'm from New York. [00:19:00] I don't, I always think something's a scam. So it's like

suspicious, first suspicious. Don't be suspicious. So at first I was like, You know, cause I'm kind of groggy and I'm like, what is this guy telling me? It was Corey, the producer. And I was like, is this a scam? So I'm looking at my phone and I'm like, what is he talking about? I'm like, Project Greenlight, didn't that show get canceled?

Because I knew it was on before. So I, to be honest, I thought it was a scam. And then when I realized it wasn't.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's hilarious.

Rahima Yoba: He was like, were you sleeping? And I was like, no, I'm fine. But I really was like, I think you're a scam artist. I don't wanna say that, but he just sounded So, now that I realize what was happening, he was being recorded because he had already been on camera.

So he had cameras in his, cuz he sounded so scripted that it sounded like a scam .

Julie Harris Oliver: He's totally self conscious cause he's being filmed while

Rhonda O'Neal: Can I say this before you finish? I did not [00:20:00] put that in, but I actually thought so too. . .

I'm serious.

I really did too, so, okay. I'm not the only one, but I didn't talk to him.

That's, it was someone else that, that emailed me or called me and then I. I was like, and it's not that you had to be from New York. It was like I was a little taken back and I felt like, okay, what, what kind of information they want from me? So yes, the same thing happened. That's so. Funny. I said, well, if they don't want, if this isn't a scam, then okay.

And she reached back out to me too, and I was like, okay, what does she really want? ? They're like, no, we're serious. Yes. This is a real thing. Hilarious. Yes. Okay. Okay. I don't mean to interrupt you, but Yes. Oh my God.

Rahima Yoba: I'm so saying that too. , that's a show in itself.

Julie Harris Oliver: All right. So somehow they convinced you that this [00:21:00] is a good idea,

Yeah. And then I, so you signed up.

Rahima Yoba: I started Googling it, and then I was like, oh, wait, Issa Rae, he mentioned Issa Rae. I was like pulling out bullet points that he mentioned. So at first I was, uh, I watched it again just to kind of refresh, like, you know, okay, let me try to remember, like, you know, the, the format I wanted to familiarize myself with the format.

Before I agreed to this thing. So when I watched it, I saw that there were very few scenes, like I watched the entire season, season four. There were very few scenes with the wardrobe department. In fact, you would see someone steaming and I was like, okay, they have customers on camera. And then at one point the director was speaking with the designer, but it was a voiceover and she was just like throwing him fabric.

So I said, oh, this is like a documentary where they'll have cameras around and they'll just be filming us randomly. I wasn't prepared for what we actually did , to be honest.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you thought you were gonna be safe?

Rahima Yoba: Not even so much safe, but like, [00:22:00] cuz I always wanted to tell, I created, , a curriculum. Like how, how, , I'm so inspired by you Rhonda because you actually have the thing that I've been dreaming about doing, so I'm gonna be picking your brain.

But I always wanted to create a curriculum for a workshop. To teach people about what we do because I too didn't know this was a job before I started and one of my first jobs on the corner in Baltimore back in the day, they uh, kids were running up to me cuz they were black kids and they saw me and it wasn't a lot, it wasn't a lot of black people on the crew on that show.

And they were like, how did you get this job? And I was like, what? And I was like, oh my God, these kids don't even know that this is the job. You know? So anyway, back to Project Greenlight, I just, I wanted to be able to tell the story of what we do because people think it's glamorous. They think it's, oh, you shop all day.

And I'm like, that's like a tiny part of it. Like the bigger part is the admin part, the logistics, like all the other part, managing people and personalities that you don't know cuz you just met them and you're never gonna see them again after the show's [00:23:00] over. So it's a whole other part of it that people are, have a disillusion about essentially.

So I was excited to be able to show what we did, but based on season four, even though it was different producers. Wardrobe was very rarely on camera, so I didn't realize I was gonna have a mic pack with my name on it, and I would be coming outta my car in the morning and they would have the cameras up.

I'm like, I would've rented a better car. Like, is this a reality show? Like I shoulda my makeup more like, stop wearing a hat every day. I started to feel so self conscious.

Julie Harris Oliver: Crazy. Yeah.

Rahima Yoba: Cause I'm not very flashy, like as a designer, surprisingly. Like I don't, I like name brands, but like good quality clothes.

But I'm not gonna wear like Louis Vuitton everywhere or like, that's just not my thing. But I kind of wish that I would've, like, I was like, maybe I should have stepped it up a little bit, you know? Because I didn't realize I was gonna be on camera that much. I thought it was gonna be like a swipe.

Rhonda O'Neal: Or maybe rebraided my braids, cause I looked a mess.[00:24:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, it's like the, the cobbler's children have no shoes.

Rahima Yoba: Exactly. Exactly. But I thought it was pretty fascinating how they shot it and even the interview process and, but then it makes you feel so self-conscious. So I feel like sometimes I was trying to put it on, but then like, I was like, how long can I keep this up?

Like , they're gonna film this for the whole time. So I feel like, like I can't wait to see it cause I feel like I'm gonna look like five different people based on whatever the mood was. Like, oh, have to be cheery today. Lemme put my red lipstick on. Let me go. Hi guys. Oh my gosh.

Rhonda O'Neal: That's the truth. Or whatever time the call time was or what time did we get off The night before?

The day before.

Exactly. Exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my gosh. So for both of you, did it change how you do your job besides feeling self-conscious and like you should have hair and makeup before you ever [00:25:00] show up to set? Did it, did it change your process

Rhonda O'Neal: at all?

At all?

Well, I just felt not really for me, it made it where I had to be more alert though.

But as far as changing the process, I think it was better. It, it made me be able to, Like I said, I had one of my, stu, a couple of my students there, and so it, it helped me to just kind of be on top of my gain even more to, to help teach them and help segue them into doing, doing the whole tr process of being present in the trailer properly.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you Rahima? Did it change at all what you were doing?

Rahima Yoba: It absolutely did it, it uh, actually it was less about my process cuz I feel like every process on. In the, in the Partment, it's kind of the same. You get the script, you read it, you break it down, you hire your crew, you figure out the budget, like it's a certain format, even though the product is different and the script is different.

But it [00:26:00] changed how I worked because I'm newer to designing. Like even though I design like in 2004, and then again I try to do music for a while. I do poetry, I write, so wardrobe is the, the, what allows me to have a great living and a great lifestyle. And I love it because I'm able to tell stories through clothing.

Right? So, but I have to say, and I'm gonna be completely transparent, it taught me how to be more professional because I'm such a people person and because I was a costumer for so long, I want everyone to be friends and get along. These people don't care about me. Like they were talking about me behind my back.

I found out later, like, but you start up this job like , this is really true, but I, I'm always like Kumbaya in everyone, and that's not really what this industry is. It's a professional industry where even though we could wear sneakers and jeans and hoodies all day, you have to conduct yourself a certain way.

So I'm just gonna be [00:27:00] transparent. I had to learn how to be quiet. I had to learn how to not talk about my kid if someone asked me questions. Just be very generic. Yeah, she's fine. Great. Did you steam that? Instead of she, she's fine. And then we start talking and they start asking me questions. I was, I'm so like honest and I had to learn how to, that job actually taught me how to be quiet and how to be more reserved and keep it more in a professional lane and keep your personal business out of it.

Like this next job I'm on, they won't even know I have a kid until one day randomly they see me at the Americana with her having lunch. And they might think I'm babysitting because I had to learn that when you're a department head, you can't be too personable with your employees. because it turns, it turns on you.

And I had that experience on this job, unfortunately. So I had to learn how to be more professional in how I speak to people. Not that I'm reckless or anything like [00:28:00] that, but just I'm very passionate because I feel like because I'm an artist. I think most of artists are passionate and sensitive, and I was taking things way too personal.

I was oversharing and I kept forgetting. I had a mic on and that was freaking me out because it was after long conversations on downtime, like during lunch. And I would look at my crew and they're like, what? I'm like, I'm wearing a mic. Do you think they can hear us? And we're talking about deep personal things because some of these folks that I hired, I consider, they were like friends of mine.

So, but there's a fine line between like professionalism and friendship when you're on the film set and because we're so casual it gets blurred. So that was the hardest and biggest lesson that I learned. So it did change how I work because being recorded made me more conscious of my actions, if that makes sense.

Rhonda O'Neal: That's really good. Yeah, that's real good because you need to come over and, and [00:29:00] speak at one of, at my academy now, because that's, that's what I was speaking about in regards too , it helped me to work with the students better and stay in line with what I, what I teach in the school. And when you spoke about your, your child, for the first, about almost 10 years of me being in this industry, no one even knew I had kids and I had three because people don't care.

About exactly us like that in this industry, which is crazy. And, and another thing I do teach in, in i, I wrote in my book as well, is the best way to be on set is to sit down, be quiet. and don't say anything because we are all filmmakers and in order for us to work and be able to put this production out there, [00:30:00] we have to be ready and prepared all, almost all at the same time.

Because if you are doing the hair, if I'm doing the hair, you doing the wardrobe. Each piece of us it takes to make this movie, it makes this, to make this project what it is. We have to be ready and we have to be in place to do, to get the job done. So that's what I had to make sure that my, my, my people in the trailer, that I was able to hire even the hair and and makeup side to be in place.

Because when you're shooting at seven in the morning, five in the morning, I'm usually asleep at 9:00 PM. We had to be alert. Also, I have a thing when I do work at four o'clock in the morning. I allow people to go into the trailer and sleep for about 15 minutes just to get their, get themselves back up [00:31:00] instead of doing the, we can sleep.

I mean, I mean, I was even guilty of doing, you know, just taking a nod on set because it's, Humanbeings are sleeping at 5:00 AM , you know, so it is best to just go get a little jolt of, you know, get sleep, sleep in, and then come back to the set more alert. But, um, yes, , I truly agree with you that you know, you have to learn that everybody's not your friend that you hire.

It's basically the quality of who you, you're hiring. I don't care if they're, they're not my friend.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think that's, that's such good advice about the professionalism and the boundaries about it, and also feel like it's so important that we try to change the business a little bit so that we can admit we have children.

I mean, instead of, cause I went through the same thing too in corporate land. [00:32:00] Had three children for years, people had no idea. But I gotta think there's, there's room for us to try to change the business enough to like actually be humans with lives who work there.

Rhonda O'Neal: We can say that we, we try that, but everybody's lifestyle is not accommodating us to be able to do that.

I mean like now, yes, it is good to say that you have children, but be careful who we work with. I'm very careful of who I work with now that I'm in this industry. I worked, I went through a divorce, I worked with all moms, that cared. So if you're going to, you know, put it out there, make sure you, to me know who you're working with, who you're, you know, who you're bringing in your camp or who's in your camp.

I turned down jobs. Unfortunately, I may be broke fo, you know, for a minute, but I'd rather have a peace of [00:33:00] mind than to work with people that don't accept, like, like you said, um, that accept my kids. Yeah, I was grinding so hard to where, no, I didn't, I wasn't gonna tell people because I was, I was working on those 16 hour days that I needed the money first, and so, yeah.

It's so hard. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: I think it would be helpful if all the fathers admitted they had children. Yeah. On set. See if they had a wife that . I know we should all have wives

Rhonda O'Neal: to help. I can't admit that first. . Oh my God, that is so funny. .

Julie Harris Oliver: How so let's talk about the movie for a bit. What kind of challenges did you face for the movie that you overcame?

I imagine some of them will show up on screen, some may not. We don't have any idea yet cuz none of us have seen it, but, what kind of challenges did you have to work out and make? What kind of magic did you have to make happen?

Rahima Yoba: The biggest challenge for Gray matter was the budget. I understood that there would be a budget constraint, [00:34:00] which is on every show, and reading the script, I knew that because they were a mom and daughter on the run, and I imagine they laid low and shopped at thrift stores as opposed to like target stores that have cameras and that sort of thing. I made them, the clothing that I chose was from thrift stores. That was my initial intention. So one of the characters, the, the mom, Jessica, the actress Jessica, the jacket that I put on her was from a thrift store.

Fit her perfectly. She loved it. It was going to take us through the entire film. Now, normally I wouldn't do that because you, you just never know what's gonna happen. So you always wanna have like something that you have a double of. But the way it was scripted, I figured we wouldn't need a double, she couldn't get away with this.

She had stunt. She had the photo doubles and we had to recreate the jacket . So that was a huge challenge because it did not exist anymore. It was a jacket from a clothing-

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you have to make it?

Rahima Yoba: Yeah, I had [00:35:00] to find the fabric, the zippers, the leather, all the parts. I had to drop it off at a, , seamstress;s home, and she had to recreate it in 24 hours. She had to make two of them. because they had added stunts and photo doubles, so you know when you-

Julie Harris Oliver: In 24 hours.

Rahima Yoba: Yeah. And she charged us accordingly. Which she should have.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, . She should!

Rahima Yoba: Because this particular jacket, it wasn't like a regular like simple panel jacket. It had zippers and seams and leather patches and I mean, it was like very in, which is why I chose it, because it also felt kind of futuristic, which is what this film reminded me of. So that was one of the challenges. And then because of the budget, again, we didn't have a large crew. It, they were very, uh, let me see how many people in my department, like four, I wanna say, and then the PA.

And then once in a while we would have additionals come, but the size of the film was still sizeable, even though. [00:36:00] It was a Project Greenlight film, and the concept is about the documentary. You know, you know what I'm saying? Like sometimes even though the film, mm-hmm. Even though they can say, oh, this is just a TV show about filmmaking and then you're gonna be designing the film within the TV show.

It sounds like a small feat, but it's still an actual film. It's stunts and blood and you're still making a whole movie. Right? Yeah. So it's, that was very challenging because we didn't have a lot of money to do it. So as often as I could use thrift store clothes, I did. And yeah, the budget was the most challenging and the lack of.

That we had available or were able to hire, but we did it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, you did it. How about you, Rhonda?

Rhonda O'Neal: I will have to agree. It was the budget. I had to create wigs that I had to get a couple of wigs, and I had to also do them myself basically, because it was hard to get [00:37:00] people that were more, a little more qualified for the job that could actually do period work and do wigs to come out there.

It was very far for the budget, for the price, so I had to do, and wigs are expensive, aren't they? They are, they can be, but, I didn't have anyone to actually do wig work for me, so I had to do a lot of the work myself, and that's a little hard when you usually hire a key that can do, do things. I had to teach my key how to do it and step in more and create the, the hair, the period hairstyles myself because nobody would come out there for that price.

So you, you

Julie Harris Oliver: are making wigs?

Rhonda O'Neal: I'm sorry. Design the wigs. I had to style the wigs. It Was hard to design for me to have to do that myself, when usually my [00:38:00] key would style the wig for me. So I, I had to almost do everything. I had to go behind and do, you know, make sure things were looking proper because of the rate.

Because of the price. Because of the distance.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I heard there was also a lot of periods in this, like there was a sitcom there. You had to be in the sixties, you had to be in a bunch of different eras. Did you have to create just so many more looks than-

Rhonda O'Neal: Yes, I did those. I prepped those wigs before time on my own time. Normally we get a prep day for that, but I had to do it on my own time. I didn't get paid for it. So yeah, it was, it was a lot. And I was also coming off of another show.

Julie Harris Oliver: All right. You must have loved that script.

Rhonda O'Neal: I wanted to give my students some experience since I, they were open to bring them on.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, that's great. Rahima, how are the different eras and different looks for you?

Rahima Yoba: You know what's interesting? The intention wasn't to have a different era. I actually, [00:39:00] I think I kind of created that , because again, we didn't have a large budget, so I have a huge kit of stock clothing and I was trying to figure out how to save money every chance I got.

So in this particular day, When I was imagining what the daughter in the film, what her Mia, her name is, what her imagery would be when she thought of an ideal world, because she loves sitcoms. I wanted to just create the quintessential sitcom mom. And I had this Sears sucker house coat, and I went to the costume house to rent aprons, and I just found this apron that just happened to be vintage.

And when I presented it to the director, she loved the idea. So it wasn't even meant to be a period. It just happened because of the clothing that was available and what I chose to match with it. So then we kind of went with that. Do you know what I mean?

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. So then Rhonda, did you, did that change your hair plan when the wardrobe became period?

Rhonda O'Neal: [00:40:00] Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: Were you like, thank you?

Rhonda O'Neal: No, it . That's why I, that's why I was saying that because it was like, oh my gosh. This isn't what I read.

This is not, that's not what I was like-

Julie Harris Oliver: That wasn't what I planned for.

Rhonda O'Neal: Now I have to go and make a wig. I have to go, go design a wig and that takes time.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you're like, oh, I'm not sleeping.

Okay, I'm sorry.

Rahima Yoba: What's crazy is that is not until we saw the picture-

Rhonda O'Neal: Not the laugh.

Rahima Yoba: When we saw the picture from-

but wasn't even intention was like, oh my God. Ones from like the fifties, but it was only once she put it on, it like came alive in the fifties or something, or sixties. So that wasn't even the intention to make it period.

Rhonda O'Neal: It was a beautiful piece. Oh my god. Skirt. It was a [00:41:00] beautiful scene. Oh God, that's so funny.

It was, it's hilarious. I'm laughing because my brain still was still, it wasn't working and I put the wig on her on the wrong day . So we were like, it was a mess. It was a mess. And Miko had to come in there and say, um, Rhonda, you're doing a great job, but this isn't the right day for it.

My brain was still at getting off at seven in the morning. I was like, what? Oh my gosh. So we were, we were able to get, get it together. We, we didn't slow down production. It was like the whole trailer that particular day was chaotic. It was like the makeup artist. One of the makeup artists didn't get there for two hours. Another one was two hours late. The other one was about an hour late. I'm putting on the wrong wig.

Rahima Yoba: And it was like, [00:42:00] but the thing is when they kept saying she needs to be in her period, look, I was like, what period look? There's no period look in the show. I was like, oh, I think it's because, once I got that period apron.

Everyone just started calling at that and I was like, oh my God, what did I do? Like, have I created?

You really

Rhonda O'Neal: something .

Julie Harris Oliver: That's hilarious. Like you thought you found a cute apron, which caused a whole cascade of people running around going crazy.

Rhonda O'Neal: Okay, so I'm not crazy.

Julie Harris Oliver: No you're not.

Rahima Yoba: Because the script simply just said something, it didn't say you know, the mom's in a period Look, it just said it, it was, it was speaking to, , Mia, the daughter's ideal version of what she, this again, is up to the interpretation, right? So as I read in the script as an artist, I'm like, what would, what would I think is my ideal life if I spent my whole life on the run with my mom?

Like, I grew up in a very, like, crazy household, so, and I'm older, I'm like gonna gonna be 50 [00:43:00] soon. So I'm thinking of things from my childhood. So I'm thinking of like, oh, like that perfect mom. Cuz I didn't grow up with my mom. So I'm like with an apron on and just like , leave it to Beaver June. June Cleaver.

Exactly. Exactly, exactly. So I'm thinking that like, you know, that kind of mom. So when I was at the costume house, because the Sears sucker dress that I had, I knew it was gonna be free because it was mine, and we wouldn't have to pay for that, that much for that outfit. I was like, oh, I got this. This apron is perfect.

And then I put it on her and all of all of a sudden she morphed into like June Cleaver. So it wasn't even intended, but when I showed it to Nico, she's like, I love this idea. And that's part of the collaborative

Rhonda O'Neal: process.

That was so good though. That was great.

Rahima Yoba: They kept saying the period clothes and I was like, what are they talking about?

And then another time I put her in this again, it was what was available. We didn't have a lot of money, so I went to Nords Rack and I brought her this yellow top and I was like, shopping like this. And I had like 20 minutes before her fitting cuz it was, like I said, [00:44:00] we, we were understaffed, so it was always like last minute, everything was like rush, rush, rush.

So I just pulled some outfit together and I run back to the trailer and her fitting was like maybe an hour after I got back. So I'm setting all the clothes up and she puts it on and I was like, oh my God, you look like Peg Bundy . It's like she kept turning into these people and it wasn't even meant to be.

So when, you know, when, when they saw it, everyone kept saying she looks like Peg Bundy and Jessica Rabbit. Cause she has a really small waist and, you know, she's curvy. So it's like the actress herself kept morphing into these- but that's a part of the happy accidents that we love when, when we're making film is movie.

But that period thing just sent me over the edge because I kept saying, why do they keep calling it that? And I'm like, but then when she put it on, I here was done. I said, oh my gosh, you just stepped back into the 1950s or sixties. That's really good though. But then I'm gonna be honest with you on another level, on another note rather, and this goes to show like the process of filmmaking when race is involved.

Because when I saw her at [00:45:00] first, I, the first thing I thought I was like, she looks really great. And then she said it. And we both, I was like, I was just thinking that. She said, do you think I look like a maid? Mm-hmm. , because June cleaver was June Cleaver because she was a white woman in America. But when you put a black woman in that same outfit with an apron, she looks less like a housewife whose successful black husband is in at a corporate job.

That wasn't a thing back then, and she looked more like the maid for the white family. So it, it's just so fascinating to me how, and then we also were considering like if we show her with natural hair, the entire film, like hair, you know, her hair, crinkly, curly, natural hair, and then have the ideal version be a relaxed perm look, is that sending the image or, or the, the idea that that's what's perfect when your hair's not naturally what Rhonda teaches kinky, curly African American hair, and it's more like a perfect white woman essentially, for lack of a better term or word. So [00:46:00] that's interesting because you, you don't think about that when you have white actors.

You just dress them and they just morph into whoever. But when you have a black actress, it turns into, especially if it looks period, you have to think about racial inequality and where black people were. So it it, that was a trippy part about that outfit. It turned into so many different things. And

Rhonda O'Neal: you did a great job with that too.

And what you, what you just said was the reason why I wanted her hair to be relaxed. Because of what you said about she could look like a maid. But that would be in the era of the Hattie May, the maid that was always played, the lady that won the first, first Oscar. And that would've been what they would've thought of, and that's why I did wanna make it into a pretty soft Leave it to Beaver.

Instead of the finger waves that we normally would come with in that era, in that time as a black person or the kinky hair.

Rahima Yoba: Mm-hmm. I also added a pearl necklace, [00:47:00] Pearl earrings, and they did her makeup. I don't know who did a makeup, but it was perfect because I wanted her to feel more elegant and like a mom, because if I didn't add that jewelry, I felt like it would've read like she was a maid.

Rhonda O'Neal: Karina.

Rahima Yoba: So that was like an interesting,

Rhonda O'Neal: yeah, yeah, yeah. That was good. . That was good. And that's filmmaking. That's that's a part of what filmmakers we're all filmmakers and bringing it all together. Yeah, that was

Julie Harris Oliver: good.

Good. And representation matters. Yeah. And you need to think about all those things. Mm-hmm. , I'm also wondering now, when you put her in that outfit, did that change the set and the set deck?

Like now do we need to go back and ask the props people, did they make changes because of that outfit? Put it in a different period?

Rahima Yoba: I don't know. Me and Martina were very close. Like we just kind of like more like we got so close on this film. So I saw her sets and the colors, wall colors, fabric choices for the couch.

I saw that way in advance. So when I found that blue Sears suckers house dress on my rack, [00:48:00] I already knew what the color schemes were, so that's why I was so obsessed with them like, this is gonna look good. Cause the coloring was kinda yellow and a little green and brown. They were more earth tone. And then she would have this light blue and white Sears sucker dress on with a white apron.

So it would contrast nicely against it. So I had, I always have to have the, the set design in mind when I'm designing anything. But what happened was when she walked into the set, it was like, even if it wasn't a like vintage furniture for some reason, everything around her, and Rhonda, you can tell me if you agree with this.

It felt like she, we stepped into another time. It really did. It was

Rhonda O'Neal: incredible. I thought it was a different sofa. It was just, it was incredible. It felt like a different era. Yeah, it was good. Very good. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: What was, what was your favorite memory on this production? Whoever has theirs at the ready? I

Rhonda O'Neal: feel like the bond that was brought that we, we all began to bring together as building of the relationships and how, I'll just say in my [00:49:00] trailer, one day I left out and went to get something to eat and I came back in and three other people in the trailer hadn't ever really worked in trailers before.

And so it was all new to them. Mind you, we are working like crazy hours and tired and when I walked back in there, I felt like I was everybody's auntie because, it was the banging and the music and the dancing of the actors and the all of us. It was like a family. They were having such a good time.

They're having a party and when. They were having such a party and it was midnight and they were like, woo Rhonda's in here. I was like, and I just started dancing with them. It was just like, that was my memory cuz that was , that was our department. But it was just so lovely to see and everybody just got along to me on the set, even though as tired as we all were, we all got along.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's fun. [00:50:00] How about you Rahima?

Rahima Yoba: I don't know if it's so much like one particular memory, but to kind of, to piggyback off of what Rhonda said, I really enjoy when actors are happy with their clothes. Like it's less about me and look, I designed the show, and it's like, how do you, do you feel like you pulled this outta your closet as an actor?

If, because my, my job is not really done unless the actor feels like they are comfortable. And Jessica, I feel like every single time I saw. Firm, whether sh we were doing something in the nineties or the infamous period costume or the Peg Bundy look, she just kept saying, I feel so good. And to be honest with you, that was my favorite part.

Like it was less about me being on camera, even though I tried to like, you know, pull it together for those moments. And it was unique and interesting. I thought my favorite part was gonna me being able to tell the story of costume designing as it pertains to behind the scenes. But my favorite part wound up being when [00:51:00] the actors just simply the kids on the show, they were like, this is how we were really dressed.

Like I love that. Like that part, it's like, go do your part cuz I did mine. So that to me was, was my favorite part.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I gotta think that that supports the acting and helps them so much get into character and get on with it.

Rahima Yoba: Yeah. and then working with Miko to be a, I wouldn't even call her first time directors.

The first time she did something, I think on the mainstream, I think is more accurate. But she never really wavered from her choices. Like she didn't say do this, and then like the next day say, what is that you're showing me? I said, alien uniform. And I'm like, wait, no, you said you wanted her to, so, cause that happens sometimes.

So she's not crazy, right? It's like we don't have that. But working with her and just having her be. Sure about how she wanted this film to look. Really helped me a lot, so I love, and I had never met her before, so it was a great working relationship.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, well, it feels like we've been together for five minutes, but it has been an [00:52:00] hour.

So now we're in our martini shot, which will be our last shot of the podcast. So my last question for you is, what advice do you have for people trying to get into doing what you do in the business?

Rhonda O'Neal: My thing is to be patient with yourself. This is a hard industry. Always give yourself a pat on the back, say You're doing good, but really be open to the learning.

Although you have a ton of skills, there are so many things that happen from production to production, you have to be accommodating. Always, always be a student and build great relationships along the way because this industry is not business as usual, but it's built on relationships. It's not always how well you do the job, it's how you treat people along the

Julie Harris Oliver: way.

Way.

I love it. I love the Always be a student I think is so important. And of course, the treating people well, that's the thing that's gonna carry you all the way through. Yes.

Rhonda O'Neal: Yes. That's been [00:53:00] what's helped me in this industry, that I can pick up the phone when I don't have a job and say, Hey, or text nowadays, and say, Hey, I'm available.

And the next call that I get is, can you work these days or, Can you work on this show? Yeah. And that's what's helped.

Julie Harris Oliver: Rahima. What's your advice?

Rahima Yoba: I have a few things that I would give his advice. Literally everything Rhonda just said, it's so accurate because our next job is usually determined on what our reputation is.

You know how they say your reputation precedes you. So a lot of jobs that I've gotten in this industry, which is why I thought Corey was a scam artist, , who was, um, . , not to bring that up again, but I really did. But I've usually gotten jobs from producers, actors, directors that I knew before, and they love how I work.

I would say absolutely show up way before your call time, not way before, but if your call time is seven, show up at 6:45 because you always want to be ready to work. When you get there do your job with excellence. Treat [00:54:00] it like this is your own production, meaning really care about the folks that you're working with, whether it's the people in front of the camera or behind the scenes have an end game for sure.

And have a B plan. I really wish when I started in this industry that I would've had something else running alongside of it, like the clothing line or gotten a degree in marketing or or business or something else. Because when the curtains close, you are often wondering, how am I gonna get another job?

And it's very nerve-wracking sometimes when you are sitting around on unemployment trying to wonder where if you had some other business running alongside that would be your other- especially now, there's so many other ways to make pick, make money and to generate income and multiple streams. So I would absolutely suggest if you are intending on getting into this business, because it takes up so much of your time, you should start a business.

Outside of this and, uh, definitely treating folks right? I'm not [00:55:00] into coming on sets and being the Devil Wears Prada at all. I want people to have fun, but still have a level of professionalism. Again, what we spoke about earlier is set etiquette, not freaking out when you meet your favorite star, Learning how to control yourself and keep it inside and call your friend at lunchtime and tell them later who you just met.

And then also boundaries. Understanding that until we get to a point where the industry really cares about what happens in your personal life, the pandemic did that a little bit. I've never heard of so many, so much diversity in terms of POC, BIPOC. I think it's black person, indigenous people of color.

Yeah. , pronouns. Like that wasn't a thing when I was younger. You know, what's your pronoun? What do you wanna be called? So there seems to be so much more inclusion, which oddly enough happened during the pandemic when we were all secluded. So maybe that will continue in that people will now care about your personal life.

But until then, keep [00:56:00] it the door closed and just go to set and focus on the art, the craft, being a good person, getting the job done, because what do we usually have, you know, three months to a year to do the production and it's over in the can and then it lives in infamy. So those would be the, the long list of advice I would give to anyone getting into the.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, this has been so fun. It was so nice to meet you both. I can't wait to watch the show and I hope you get all the screen time. That'll be the best. So, Rhonda O'Neal, thank you so much.

Rhonda O'Neal: Thank you for having me. This is

Julie Harris Oliver: wonderful. And Rahima Yoba, thank you so much. Thank you. You're welcome. All right.

Thanks for being on Catch A Break. This has been Catch a Break, Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Rhonda O'Neal and Rahima Yoba. And special thanks to crewvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Please check out our website at catchabreakpodcast.com and follow us on all the social media.

Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight [00:57:00] Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was, By Andrew Jocelyn. Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come back and check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

Next up we talk Onset sound and video assist with Savanna Peters and Sara Glaser. In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.

EP 407: The Production Department

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch a Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media places at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. The presenting sponsor of Season four of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot, featuring a New York and LA downtown street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices, along with post-production space dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all of their clients.

Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need, any budget. Find them at santaclaritastudios.com. We are continuing our Project Greenlight series where we talk to the cast and [00:01:00] crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We are dropping these pretty fast, so if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 401.

In this episode, I sat down with UPM Cory Sklov, Production Supervisor, Miranda Pacheco, and Assistant Production Office Coordinator, APOC, Fiona Widerman. Okay, have a listen.

Welcome to Catch A Break. I am here today with Cory Sklov. He's a Los Angeles native with over 20 years industry experience, having worked on dozens of projects from There Will Be Blood to Us to the upcoming Martin Scorsese Feature Killers of the Flower Moon as the line producer and DGA UPM. His most recent project is the feature film Gray Matter inside of Project Greenlight for HBO Max and CatchLight Studios.

Cory lives in El Sereno with his wife and two pets. Hello Corey.

Cory Sklov: Hello.

Julie Harris Oliver: We also have Miranda Pacheco. She is a producer and production supervisor who studied film at Columbia University in New York. Since moving to Los Angeles, she has worked on various [00:02:00] studio feature films such as West Side Story, Morbius, and Martin Scorsese's Killers of The Flower Moon. Gosh, do you guys know each other?

Additionally, she has produced various short form content including commercial short films and music videos. She was selected as an elite Latino lens producing fellow in 2020 and a women in Film fellow in 2022. Through her work, Miranda's committed to telling unique and personal stories at UPLIFT marginalized communities.

Welcome Miranda.

Miranda Pacheco: Hello.

Julie Harris Oliver: We also have Fiona Wiedermann. She's a New York City transplant living in Los Angeles for the last few years. She's an assistant production office coordinator. She studied theater and was working as a stage manager before jumping into the world of television and film. Since moving to LA, she has worked on a variety of projects, including Wanda Vision, Morbius, where she first met Corey and Miranda, Atypical and American Crime Story. And I think right now you're working on Grey's Anatomy?

Fiona Wiedermann: Yes, that is true.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hello Fiona.

Fiona Wiedermann: Hello.

Julie Harris Oliver: Those are incredible credits for having just arrived in town.

Fiona Wiedermann: I know. I think a lot of it is just like being at the right place [00:03:00] at the right time and being on the right like timeline that everyone else is on.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. That is working out. While we have you talking, what was your very first job and how did you get it?

Um,

Fiona Wiedermann: my very first job in the industry was working as a set PA. So I studied theater and one of my theater. Professors had a director friend who was in town and doing a short film, and she needed some like day players.

And I had never, I'd been working in theater, I'd never done anything in television or film. And I thought, oh, okay, that's like an interesting experience. So we went to a nursing home to film. It was a short film, uh, about, um, this woman with Alzheimer's. And I went and my job was to lock up this nursing home.

Which meant I stood at the end of a hallway and every time the the elderly folks who lived in the home would try to like slam doors, I'd need to remind them that in fact, we were rolling and we need to be quiet. So I got a lot of time yelled at by, by elderly people. All the dementia patients, you [00:04:00] were reminded and so like, they maybe forgot or maybe they were just like trying to be sassy.

I feel like it was both. Oh my God.

Julie Harris Oliver: What was the short film?

Fiona Wiedermann: Eighth year of the emergency.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my gosh. Where were you studying theater?

Fiona Wiedermann: I studied

theater at breed college in Portland, Oregon.

Oh yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Interesting. Corey, what was your first job at, how'd you get it?

Cory Sklov: My first job was an office PA on a USA Network movie of the week called Hefner Unauthorized. It was the unauthorized biography of Hugh Hefner. Excellent. And the title didn't give it away. . That was in the, a while ago, and it was my very first job out of college. And I had, I got that job from a producer that I had interning with named Ben Myron. And I was about two weeks away from graduating college.

I was going to school here in LA and I was sitting in his office and he was a very nice guy. And he asked me, well, what do you want to do when you graduate? I said, well, you know, I want to get in development or something or another like that. And he thought, well, you know, I have a movie going into production [00:05:00] in a few weeks. Um, do you wanna work on it in the office? I was like, that'd be great. He picked up the phone, he called the line producer and said he was the lead producer on it. He called the line producer and he said, Hey, I have this guy Corey, who's just about ready to graduate college, he liked to work in the movie, can you please give him a job?

And sure enough, they happened to be prepping right down the street. I went over and met the line producers, this woman named Lean Moore, and she gave me a job. And I started within two days of graduating. And that was my very first job outta college. And it was on that very job that led to people that I still work with this very day.

So, Well , that worked out

Julie Harris Oliver: well. Been crazy. Okay. Miranda, how about you?

Miranda Pacheco: My first job where I was paid was an internship at Scott Rudin, this company, , in New York. And then my first job that wasn't an internship was being a PA on commercial.

Julie Harris Oliver: How was that Scott Rudin job.

Miranda Pacheco: It was really cool and [00:06:00] crazy and that's why I also think that of that as more of my first job because that was my first time working in the industry and getting a sense of what I wanted to do and what the industry had to offer and learning a lot of things that I was interested in.

Julie Harris Oliver: How'd you get the internship?

Miranda Pacheco: I found a post on a job board for my college. Um, where an alumni who is an exec at Scott Rudin at the time, had posted. An opportunity. And then I replied to that post and I had an interview with them and they said, okay, well we'll reach out to you in, you know, the next few weeks.

And then I did not hear from them again for six months. And I had to follow up, or I chose to follow up with them like every week. No response completely ghosted me. And then randomly out of the blue, they were like, can you start tomorrow after six months? I, oh my god. Um, yes. So it was kind of crazy.

Julie Harris Oliver: And you followed up every week for six months?

Miranda Pacheco: Yes. Or around, maybe not. Much, but it was consistently, I [00:07:00] consistently just emailed them to see if anything was happening.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Now I think that is fairly unusual. People might give up after a couple times of following up and you never heard anything. Why did you keep following up or how was, how was your head space to do?

Miranda Pacheco: Because it was Scott Rudin and I had nothing to lose because I was a college student. It was looking for any brand there. It's. Yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: you have nothing to lose. What if they say no, you're no further, , nowhere's south than you were a minute ago.

Miranda Pacheco: Exactly.

Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's start talking about this whole Project Greenlight experience. Now, I know I've heard from other people, Corey, Miranda, that you had to call people and talk them into, well offer them these jobs and talk to 'em about what it would be like being on camera. But let's back up to when you heard about what this job was and how it was gonna be on camera, and what did you think of all that?

Cory Sklov: Well, I guess, uh, I was reached out to, by Jeanette and Yolanda reached out to me, I think in February of, of 2022. I was working on another project in Pittsburgh at the time and then reached out to me about the Project Greenlight series. , [00:08:00] and the first thing they said, This is an opportunity we would like you to come on as the unit production manager of the UPM and this is an opportunity for you to, um, you know, get to the DGA and, okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you weren't a DGA UPM before this?

Cory Sklov: Correct. So I've always been a production supervisor. Mm-hmm working on mostly studio films and you know, a lot of the times that job, you know, does a lot of the same things as a DGA UPM. Okay. Yeah. , and certainly on lots of the project I worked on, just the structure was such that that was the case.

But it's hard, you know, when you are working on studio films like that to crack into the DGA and you end up sort of, you know, just, , working in that supervisor space on some very cool movies with great people, but you kind of hit your head against the ceiling when you're trying, if you want to get into that next door, Strat of the UPM world.

So this was presented to me as an opportunity and I felt like I was kind of at this point in my career, I wanted to take that next step and, you know, it was, it was a tough decision and it was something I know that [00:09:00] I kept on, you know, going thinking was that the right decision and going back on it. But at the end of the day, it was a great decision and I think I worked with so great people and, um, you know, that was really the driving force to do the movie, do the project, even in the face of the docu series of it all, to me that was.

Yeah, the reward worth, the, the stress or whatever came with it. With the docuseries.

Julie Harris Oliver: So let's talk about the DGA of it all. Because kind of once you make that leap, there's no going back, right?

Cory Sklov: No, you can, uh, you can, you can straddle between, uh, DGA UPM work and supervisor work. You can't, you can't work as a production manager on non DGA films.

So it's hard to have the title production, like unit production manager and supervisor are two different positions, right? So the unit produc, unit production manager, the UPM is a covered position within the DGA contract production supervisor is not. Right? Right. So, in fact, I just did like a three, four weeks, second unit in Pittsburgh that I got back from just a couple weeks ago.

[00:10:00] Something just to kind of fill the time or as a supervisor, you know, so,

Julie Harris Oliver: SO then are you eligible to work in LA as a DGA UPM or are you gonna have to work outta town now?

Cory Sklov: Well, it's even more complicated than that. Okay. So I am eligible to work anywhere in the country, but I have to be grandfathered in and be an incumbent as the show signs a signatory paperwork with the DGA.

So what that means is, for instance, uh, I'm actually prepping a show right now, another tier one independent that's gonna shoot in LA in October and they were gonna go DGA and I got hired just enough and just enough time to have my name included on the signatory paperwork that goes into the DGA. So now I am able to work on it cause I was listening as an incumbent as they sort of signed up.

It's kinda getting grandfathered in.

Julie Harris Oliver: So if you get hired before they become signatory, you can actually do it?

Cory Sklov: Correct. Once they, if they, once they become signatory, I can't work in LA because one, I'm not in the first area. QL here in California, ql and two, the other sort of [00:11:00] major national qls, what you call the third area ql, which is pretty much everywhere in the country, aside from New York and LA for the most part.

Mm-hmm. . And to get into that world, you need 120 days working as a UPM on DGA shows, and 90 of those days need to be shoot days. Right. So, you know, On these types of films, these tier movies that tend to be anywhere from 18, like Gray Matter to 20, 25 days shoot periods, it takes a handful of those to get into that third area.

So yeah, I'm chipping away at that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Thank you for the DGA UPM Premier. Sure.

Cory Sklov: There you go.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's very complicated. Yeah. Miranda, how about you? Why the taking on the Project Greenlight part of it, how was that?

Miranda Pacheco: I think to Corey's point, definitely an opportunity to take on a bigger role. This is also my first production supervisor experience. Um-

Julie Harris Oliver: And before that, what were you doing?

Miranda Pacheco: Coordinating. Okay. So a jump up in that way and just [00:12:00] taking on more responsibility, learning more, having, uh, a lot of, or actually before this project, Similar to Corey too. Um, my experience had been on much larger studio projects. So being, it was appealing to be on a smaller project where you do have, get to wear more hats and can take on more.

It's not so, , so sort of stratified in the way that, , bigger movies are. And then the other piece of it, I think that's significant and that was appealing about Project Greenlight, is the idea of showcasing a project in a way of making a movie that is equitable and actually empowering, you know, on, in a production sense.

Because working in production, as I'm sure Corey and Fiona can relate, there's a lot of situations and just sort of negative elements that you find in those environments that, for [00:13:00] myself, it's very important to try and change and to try and make the, the workplace just better for everyone and more diverse. And so I felt like this project was, that was sort of at the core of it, was trying to showcase a different version of a film set, , that is aspirational. And so I want to be a part of that process.

Julie Harris Oliver: I love that. And then you could be in a position to help shape that culture.

Miranda Pacheco: Exactly. Exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Because on the one hand, you would have a broader scope of what you were doing, a higher position, a smaller show at the same time with a much smaller budget.

Miranda Pacheco: Is it a lot harder? I think yes, there are. I guess it's harder, but production is always hard. , you know, because bigger show is just bigger problems. Yeah. Like , you know, in, in a smaller project. In a way, the ease of it comes from the fact that, you know, you can't do certain things because there are limitations that are very real.

And yeah, I would say so. In a way it. I don't know. There's, it's [00:14:00] almost, there's bumpers on everything you're doing because there's a budgetary restriction. It's clearer. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just a different type of problem solving, I guess. Mm-hmm. . , and you have less people to solve those problems, which on a bigger show you have more resources.

So there's a lot more staff. Like our staff in production, the office was smaller, you know, we didn't have a coordinator. So it was kind of also in my position doing a lot of that work and then also Fiona doing a lot of that work too. So, you know, it's your, where you're have more responsibility, but I don't think it was necessarily that much harder.

Julie Harris Oliver: Fiona ?

Fiona Wiedermann: Yes. Hello.

Julie Harris Oliver: How'd they get you to do this job?

Fiona Wiedermann: So funny. I was in between jobs. I was actually helping out a friend, helping her with wrap, wrapping up Picard and I'm like driving home from Santa Clarita, which is always a Trek . And I got a phone call from Miranda and she starts talking and she truly like, probably like 20 minutes of just full explanation of [00:15:00] like, she, it's, she was trying to tell me like she knew I was gonna say no.

I was like, great. We have the greatest team. Like it's amazing. Let me tell you, all that lady in my cell look at all of these things. For me, it wasn't really a hard sell. I felt like this was my first, , assistant coordinating position and I definitely felt like I was ready for that. And I had kind of been dragging my feet, , mostly cuz it's a lot more responsibility.

So I wanted to make sure that I was in a head space where I was ready to take that on and support it and support it felt like it was gonna be a good group of people that I could like trust to, to know that it was my first time and I could make those mistakes and I could learn and all of that. And she was selling it and I was like, honestly, this kind of sounds amazing.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like, what's the catch.

Fiona Wiedermann: Didn't know. You know, there's a lot of things in respect that I, I didn't know, I don't think any of us knew. Mm-hmm. going into it, what it would really be like. But in theory I kind of knew that they probably wouldn't like film me too much, but it's like, that's fun. Oh, there's a reality crew.

Like, that's interesting. [00:16:00] I like watching unscripted shows. Like, I won't be the Star, but like I'll know the people in the show and that'll be really interesting to see. It's almost like you get a, a behind the scenes. Like obviously I'm not in post, I'm not cutting together their show, but I know what I saw.

So it'll be really interesting to see how it's presented and see like mm-hmm , how those narratives line up, how they don't like, just like how a story gets told. Yeah. Interesting.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what I'm hearing is that you were all bribed with promotions to get on set.

Cory Sklov: Yeah, you're right. Definitely the promotion and the, you know, the ability to kind of, like you said, take on more responsibility that comes with those promotions.

Yeah, and I think that, , the show really helped foster that sort of. You know, that, , responsibility because I think Jeanette, Yolanda, and who are the main producers we've worked with, were supportive from day one. Mm-hmm. . And we're very much just sort of like, you know, here you go, fly, figure it out. You'll, you know, you can fly, you know how to use your [00:17:00] wings, so now's your chance.

Right. And mm-hmm. , you know, I, I've, I, I really enjoyed working with them and I think us as a team really, you know, obviously really rose to the occasion. Well,

Julie Harris Oliver: as everyone is telling us, you totally did. So how did being on camera affect how you did your job? Did you have to do things differently?

Cory Sklov: Yeah. Yes, it was, , it was really hard. I think, and I, did it get easier towards the end? I guess a little bit, like, just like anything, certain things became set in nature. Mm-hmm. , but. I found the hardest part was when we were in prep in the office because. Totally. It was so confined and we had a, we only had a six week prep on this film, which is very fast.

And in the six weeks we had to crew up, which was very hard. Not only is it hard to crew up on a tier one movie in LA it's hard to crew up with such little prep and it's hard to crew up when you have to go project, like everyone was talking about. Yeah. Yeah.

Miranda Pacheco: And it's so busy and it's so busy.

Cory Sklov: So, I mean, I just know from my [00:18:00] experience, the hardest part was every day we'd walk in and I would make it a point to get there early because before the, the docu crew got in there.

Cause it, soon as they came in around 8:30 or 9:00, you got mic'd up right away. Mm-hmm. , right. And. You know, a lot of our jobs and you know, my job is a lot of talking on the phone and talking to people in meetings and you know, sometimes you, sometimes in meetings get, not not really tense, but sometimes you just need to be able to talk freely and, you know, ask people questions that maybe make them not uncomfortable.

But you know, you're sort of trying to get, trying to get to the point of something, I guess. And sometimes you need to be direct. And I felt like I was holding back a lot, not holding back from being like jerk or anything, but just holding back from really saying what I wanted to say to get to the point.

Yeah. And it's hard to convey that on a text, so it's hard to convey that in an email .

It was, I found it pretty tough and like, I feel like I couldn't do my job how I was used to doing my job. And I think in spite of all that, it's still turned [00:19:00] out I think as good as it could have. But I know that on my job since then, it's been a lot easier.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're like relaxing.

Fiona Wiedermann: Yeah. Not being filmed.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like I gotta think when you're making deals with people.

Yeah. I would guess both sides of that doesn't want that public.

Cory Sklov: Correct. Um, you know, every time you talk to someone on the phone, , They wanted Are you about That's interesting thing. So what happens is, cause I was on the phone constantly and at the very beginning they'd always come in and ask like, Hey, put on, they gave me like a little script basically when you have someone you, they always wanted to put on speaker and you always had to let that person know that you, you, that the conversation was being recorded.

Right. Yeah. And I think, I think I played along for like a day, but then I realized this is actually very hard and it's actually kind of slowing down my process. Mm-hmm. and getting the way of my process. And I just kind of stopped doing it and they stopped asking me to do it. So I don't know if they understood that there was just a certain understanding there.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. , like if they knew they weren't gonna air that, [00:20:00] You don't speak

a much higher chance of that phone call getting on screen.

Cory Sklov: Exactly. Most people I talked to knew why I was calling and what was happening. Cause I always kind of joke like, yeah, I'm Mic' 24 7. Pretty much so. Yeah. Yeah. Like right now.

Right now for example. Is that OK with you?

Fiona Wiedermann: They're like, you're sure. I guess that's tough.

Miranda Pacheco: but also I think what's important is the context of how they were working with us in prep, as in our office was also their office. So they were set up pretty much right across the hall from where Fiona and I's office was.

Cory Sklov: And so all day we could kind of hear the interviews that they were recording. The control room was like across from where we were working and it was just a bizarre proximity and they kind of, you know, it's like. They're standing in the hallway filming you at your desk as you're working. And it's a direct eye line.

[00:21:00] Like, so it's things like that, that we're just staring.

Julie Harris Oliver: And you're on the monitor in the

Miranda Pacheco: next room? Yes, exactly. Weird. Like literally within, you know, earshot Yeah. From where you're working. So it's kind of this weird,

Cory Sklov: and I think even day, there are three cameras and three booms always around and like three or four producers, you know?

Yeah. In this pretty small office. The very

Miranda Pacheco: small office, you know. ,

Julie Harris Oliver: so did you become less self-conscious over time? It's

Miranda Pacheco: impossible to be less, I mean, because they, you're just so aware of their presence. Once we were on set, , because our office, we sh, we had a production office that was at Occidental, and then we closed that office when we started shooting, and we opened up a new office that was on the grounds of RSI, the location where we shot the entire movie.

So in that new office, they rarely came around. It was a lot more, I think that that's when we could actually be. More comfortable in work in a way that we're more used to working because you didn't have that 24/7 presence?

Cory Sklov: , kind of a, I [00:22:00] kind of adapted to it a little bit, you know, I think I got a little more comfortable and certainly once we started shooting, they weren't in your face so much all time.

Mm-hmm. ,

Miranda Pacheco: well, there was just more for them

Cory Sklov: to cover. You had more space to kind of spread out. Right. And you weren't kind of confined to this small office, this small lot. If you wanted to have a private conversation, you could, right? Mm-hmm. , even though you were still micd all day long, we were so far spread out.

And I think a lot of the times, like they could have been, you know, half a mile away. And if you're in our offices, no one's really catching what we're saying unless they had. Mic's all over the place.

Julie Harris Oliver: They're in a van with their headphones.

Miranda Pacheco: Unless they came back. There was one time when they came and it was like 3:00 AM and they were like, oh, can we film you guys working at 3:00

Cory Sklov: AM Like, dude, what would you be doing right now?

That's like, well nothing, 3:00 AM . Yeah, but I guess we're like, we were looking at some PC envelopes or something like that, but

Fiona Wiedermann: Oh, that's

funny. Fascinating. So yeah, I feel like prep was difficult cuz I mean, yeah, we were right next to each other.

Miranda Pacheco But they were very uninterested in like that, the actual work. I mean I'm sure a lot of what, especially Fiona and I, and in the office we're doing will not be in the show because it's just so boring.

There's nothing actually even in their control room. You know, I would overhear them saying that it was too boring. But like , that show was just, you know, playing. It was not interesting, not enough in drama.

Julie Harris Oliver: Had you seen the prior series?.

Miranda Pacheco: No, no, we still haven't watched it. Yeah, I want to [00:24:00] though, but I think there's a fear. There's a, a fear to watch it.

Cory Sklov: Well, I wonder if part me is like didn't wanna watch it because I'd already agreed to this and was moving on.

I didn't wanna like, just

Julie Harris Oliver: was like honestly I think just as well cuz like the last season was very dramatic and I think it may have, I'd be nervous doing it

Julie Harris Oliver: Was Covid also surging at the time? Did that add an extra layer of-

Cory Sklov: we, we, we got lucky.

We,

Fiona Wiedermann: we just did a good job. We, good job. It was Surging. It was, and we had an amazing Covid coordinator, Hosai, who was amazing. Incredible, like, incredible. And we didn't have the whole time we were shooting, never. They

Cory Sklov: were positive Zero cases. We never shut down. It was awesome.

Miranda Pacheco: It was amazing. I mean, she. Hosai, the CCO is honestly the best in the business.

Yeah. Best in the business.

Cory Sklov: She's working on winning time, season two right now.

Miranda Pacheco: We were very, very lucky to have her. And yeah, weirdly that it was completely

Cory Sklov: safe. Yeah. We would've, , COVID perspective, it would've been a, it would've been really a big problem if, , a huge problem if anyone on our league house.

We had, well, we

Miranda Pacheco: didn't have time. We didn't have time. Well, there was no way to shut down . It was, if we would've shut down, it would've killed them entire [00:26:00] movie pretty much. So definitely that was amazing. All right. Good job. Good job.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what happened in the making of the film that you think won't hit the show?

What was the challenge or something that you had to figure out or overcome that may not make it into the shoe. I don't know if you know yet. That may not be a good question.

Miranda Pacheco: Yeah, I guess I don't think any of us are aware enough what the direction of the edit is going to be. Mm-hmm. , because there's just so much, I mean over because-

Julie Harris Oliver: they see everything.

Miranda Pacheco: Yes. They saw everything like to Fiona, and they've heard Fiona said. Even. I think the thing that's most interesting maybe to us is when we watch the show, the things that we're gonna see that we weren't even aware of in the actual moment. Oh yeah. Because we didn't have the type of access that they had.

We only have our direct experience, but they saw everything, so they were privy to a lot more conversations and things that were going on, then we even-

Fiona Wiedermann: Oh, that'll be so interesting if you had a [00:27:00] conversation. But then you hear that the other conversation I had before completely different. Exactly. Or just, you know, the dimensions to what was going on that we weren't, we couldn't have been aware

Cory Sklov: of.

It's interesting to think that there'd be something that we either thought was good or not negative that they wouldn't want to put into the series. Right. It's almost like the mundaneness maybe wouldn't come in in some reason.

Miranda Pacheco: Exactly. But yeah, like a lot of just the office stuff, like they shot, you know, they, they were always coming to us, not always, but they came to us many times in the office and said, oh, we want to interview you guys.

We wanna film you guys doing your work. And we kind of were like, this is not gonna be in the show. This is so boring. Us filing papers or, you know, just sort the, the actual work of running a production office. I don't think that that's necessarily compelling enough to make it into the show. I would be surprised if some of that, you know, B-roll stuff that they shot makes day.

Yeah.

Fiona Wiedermann: I think there definitely were a lot of challenges, but I feel like they're like [00:28:00] quiet challenges . Yeah, exactly. So it's like hard to show that in the film, like a compelling way. Success of like, oh no, we need an order. But our crew didn't tell us till 6:00 AM cuz that's when we wrapped. Exactly. I'm the early shift, but I'm not until noon, so then I need to call a vendor.

But then we're in Pomona and the vendor's in Culver City and how do we get, make sure we have and then close for tonight.

Miranda Pacheco: Yeah, exactly. There was a

Fiona Wiedermann: lot of that stuff. No,

Miranda Pacheco: no. I will just say because there has never, of everything that I've worked on, I don't think. This show had the, by far least drama, it was so undramatic in moments that it was because the people were so nice. I mean, everyone on the crew, there was no one who was, I think, inherently super dramatic in the way that we've experienced on other movies.

Yeah, it was a very, very, very kind, respectful crew.

Cory Sklov: I think we had a few bumpy moments and I'm sure it'll be in the show, but at the end of the day, we all had, I they went, it went well, you know, as well as it

Miranda Pacheco: could have for that situation.

I don't, I would be very surprised if [00:29:00] they show any of the, the reality crew in the TV show. I don't think that they will because yeah, especially that type of conversation really,

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, that just gets so meta. Like you have a docu crew on the reality crew on the film.

Miranda Pacheco: Well they do, they endorsed us, you know, in, in interviews they would say, similar to your question, oh, what are the challenges? Of having the reality crew like you Buddy's. Exactly. You know, that was a weird thing cuz they also became so close to us. A lot

Cory Sklov: of their crew, they're all really nice people. We all got, we worked together for two months.

Mm-hmm. three months. Mm-hmm. , side by side. You know, people who were doing your job, but on the other side of the camera. Yeah. Really? Cause you had two corrections. We were about, our crew was like 80, 90 people. Their crew is like, like 56, 50, 60 people bigger. So you had these two massive units moving alongside each other.

You know, using the same resources but also completely independent of one another. Right, right. And they're your kind of people. Yeah. Yeah. Well that what we're going through, you know, we know what they're going through, they know what we're going through. And you know, [00:30:00] everyone's professionals and you know, we all had our counterparts on the other movie, you know, there was a line producer on the other end who I constantly dealt with cuz we had to share a lot of costs.

Right. And mm-hmm. . Yeah. That was always, and that actually ended up working out pretty, I thought it worked out pretty well.

Miranda Pacheco: It was cool too, that visibility of a different type of production because unscripted is so different in, even though as Corey said, there are, there were some counterparts, it's still a much different production infrastructure than narrative.

Yeah. And I think all of our experience has been only a narrative. So we had never, you know, it was a lot of interesting just production insight into, oh, this is how unscripted shows work and are put together and learning all of the different, , titles that they have on their side of things. And as Corey said, the people that we were working with from the unscripted side were like the best in the business.

Yeah. Like they work on all the biggest shows. They're sort of at this [00:31:00] elite level that's similar to a lot of the crews that Corey and I have worked with as well on the narrative side. So that was kind of cool too, to like interesting work with the best and the biz for unscripted.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm gonna do a quick plug for a complete breakdown of narrative versus unscripted season one Catch a break. . Okay.

Miranda Pacheco: Love it.

Julie Harris Oliver: So let's just focus on the movie for a minute. What were some of the biggest challenges that you needed to make happen on the film? I know it was a short prep. It was a short shoot, it was night shoots, you were out of town. Like, what were some of the, what were some of the real challenges in getting the film made?

Cory Sklov: Well, in my opinion, , you know, The budget was, , was pretty tight. , and I think the, the biggest challenge was the truncated prep in and of itself, cuz even if you do ever have like a six week hard prep, you have months ahead of that where you're lining up crew, right? Yeah. And we were finding crew within that time and I felt like a lot of departments probably got shorted on prep and movies like this are made in prep [00:32:00] and we had to make a change in our art department, you know, two or three weeks in, which I think really set us back.

And , I think that that'll definitely be the show that really hurt us. And I think that, you know, there were uncertainties about location and when we could shoot in certain places and the script kept on going through changes. And you know, when I look back on it, I definitely think that certain things suffer by not having people be able to prep more together.

I think Andrew could have used more prep with, , Meko and Danny. Their time together just felt really crammed in. And I think that Meko, you know, I think did a really good job. I just think that, , you know, she was so busy with so many other things, right? All the script changes down to last second casting that went down to last second that it kind of took her away from really prepping the film, I think the way it needed to be.

And I think we had a few, the visual effects side of things was pretty difficult on this. , you know, we never really had a cohesive visual effects unit team planned in place. [00:33:00] And when I look back on it from my point of view, I think that's something I definitely learned a lot about and how I could have done a better job to sort of push that department forward and get a lot of that answered.

And I think there were times on set where it could probably slowed us down by not having a clear idea of what we wanted to do visual effects wise. And I know in post they've had, it's been a, it's been a thing, but, you know, I think they're, they're figuring it out and, , like I said before, the doerries would all also have things sort of hampered some of the prep that we could be undone on normal.

Miranda Pacheco: Yeah, I think from the office perspective, there wasn't many crazy issues. As Fiona said, the, just the weirdness of the nights. Yeah, made it hard to pivot very quickly in getting, , new equipment in or changing out equipment. Also, we had a very small staff because it was literally just three of us.

Julie Harris Oliver: So were you working days while everyone was working overnight?

Miranda Pacheco: No, we had, , basically split like staggered calls. So there would be an early shift that would start at, you know, 11:00 AM [00:34:00] or noon-ish, and then a later shift that would probably come in at like one to two. So, and then we just were in that window. But we wouldn't stay through the whole night usually. Some nights I would stay through some, you know, until the early morning hours. But there's not that much, there wasn't that much for us to be doing super late in the AM. So we would kind of be, yeah, about afternoon through the middle of the night.

Julie Harris Oliver: So if something happened overnight that, that you needed to like order new equipment or something in the morning, you would just find that out when you come in and try to get it done the afternoon?

Miranda Pacheco: Exactly.

Fiona Wiedermann: I think, yeah, I mean, talked a little bit about how communication was challenging, but like that truncated time period to get things done is challenging. Also difficult that there wasn't really like one mode of communication. So like somebody would text Corey at like 4:00 AM mm-hmm. and then like Corey would tell Miranda and then I'd find out at like 11 or like, and then we couldn't get drivers cause we couldn't bring drivers on early cause they have to work overnight.

Right. So we'd have to, lady who's amazing, , [00:35:00] did so much driving, so, so much driving like her knee was hurting because of all the driving she was doing. Cause we had to go back and forth

Miranda Pacheco: because the camera in the house that we used was all the way in Culver

Fiona Wiedermann: City. I know in retrospect, I guess we didn't know exactly where our location was before we fixed the camera vendor.

But I wish that had factored in our vendors when we were going to be

Miranda Pacheco: Yeah. I think we, Corey and I were talking about this the other day, we probably would've gone with, would be a different camera vendor, but, , that's a good job. Yeah. They, yeah. Good job in some ways.

Julie Harris Oliver: So would you have to check in, like, would, would drivers check in with you before they left LA. Like, do you need me to pick something up on the way in?

Miranda Pacheco: Well, we, it was just so small you couldn't really-

Cory Sklov: We made it work from time to time.

Miranda Pacheco: Yeah. But the, our transo department was so small that it was just such they could not really help us that much in the office just because of the hours and just the number of drivers that they had was very, very limited. So, uh, they were extremely the at [00:36:00] really well run department, and they did help us out as much as possible. But a lot of it was, you know, we just kind of, as a department of three people had to just make stuff happen basically between the hours of 12 and 5:00 PM.

Fiona Wiedermann: I got really, really comfortable talking on the phone because I knew, I found out pretty quickly no one was gonna respond to my emails as fast as I needed them to. Exactly. You know, like they didn't have the urgency that I have because what, what, why would they have urgency about this thing? They don't really know how much I need something. , so a lot of phone calls, a lot, a lot of phone calls. And I think in the beginning it was kind of weird.

I'm like, I first time as an assistant coordinator never really interacted with vendors that much individually. I feel like by the end of it, I could cold call truly anyone and be like, Hey, so I need this thing. Here's when I need it. Here's the urgency. Like,

Miranda Pacheco: exactly. Yeah. And that's, that was a good, good part about it was it was just such a masterclass in a way, but then also, our team of myself, Fiona, and Laney, was so strong.

I mean, honestly like was [00:37:00] very, very strong for the demands of the project. I think there was nothing we could've really done

Cory Sklov: better. So like one of the, one of the hardest things I think you guys had to deal with Lady's Shoulder. Most of this was the courtesy hotel aspect of it, so Oh, that's true. That was huge.

Yeah. She now in Pomona,

Miranda Pacheco: I'm sorry, say that again? The courtesy, courtesy. Hotel. Hotel

Cory Sklov: court. Talk about that. So shooting on Pomona, you're technically within the 30 mile studio zone, right, which is, as the crow flies, it's a 30 mile radius from Los and Beverly, I think, right? Yeah. And like Pomona is literally on the edge of that.

But because we were shooting. You know, through the night people were driving out there in traffic and then they were going home in traffic too. And you had people who lived in like the Hills, Calabasa, driving all the way. So you offer over a hundred miles. People were driving. It's not a requirement, but of course for safety you have to offer it.

Yeah. And it was something where we just asked people to let us know, do you need one? And sure enough, like so many people every night almost. And we were also trying to be, you know, as, as efficient with the money as possible. [00:38:00] And lady was just, did such a good job of constantly staying on it. And you know, I think she did a great job.

We, we always had a room to offer someone they needed it and we also didn't overspend. And it was just that perfect balance of being able to offer the people rooms but not spending 20, 30,000 more dollars than we needed to. Yeah. We spent. I think we ended up spending like almost $40,000 in courtesy Hotels as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: So would you have to manage that like real time with the hotels to make sure charge?

Cory Sklov: Yes. She would leave at a certain point, right? Like at, and then she'd let, she'd hand off it to me and then there would be like a handful of people and people knew leave reach out to me and I had sort of a staff of like five hotels in my pocket that I'd say, well go here.

But then we just got to the point, I was like, okay, who wants hotels this week? just, yeah, just book 'em out after. And we just booked 'em out and then people just, people were really grateful that we were doing that and so many people came up to us and just like, thank you for the hotel. It just, it save us.

And yeah,

Fiona Wiedermann: it was also exactly when the state fair was happening, it was also happening , so it's also happening in [00:39:00] Pomona. Oh my God. So the hotel business, like Laney was calling every hotel they'd like switch. The shifts would switch cuz our timing is weird. So she'd be talking to one person and then like they would go home and then she'd have to talk to the next person and like start reiterate and like, I mean, by the end of it, I think they started to just know who she was.

Oh yeah. She was talking to the same peoples.

Cory Sklov: Oh, that was a challenge. I think the challenge shooting RSI was a challenge. , just the commute itself, the long nights out there. Mm-hmm. and you know, yeah. And there were times where we were trying to open up the world a little bit and find locations within the RSI world that didn't feel like rsi.

And , I'm sure youve can speak to that better when you talk to her. You know, there was obviously we wanted to go bigger and further field to show more of a world out there, but, you know, financially in the way our schedule was, was very hard to really move anywhere outside RSI. Cause we had a jam packed schedule into 18 days that was pretty aggressive.

And we did it, [00:40:00] but it was tough.

Julie Harris Oliver: I did wanna ask, I know so many people have talked about like most diverse crew ever, really great culture. Were you all involved in the hiring of that and was it different than how you normally hire and how did you go? About a hundred

Miranda Pacheco: percent. Yeah. That was actually. the Be again, one of the best parts of the process.

And this project, one thing, which I'm sure people have plugged, obviously Jeanette and Yolanda will plug Crewvie. It's great. ,Crewvie that was a big, basically it is a crew hiring platform for producers and also crew members to create profiles for themselves, for producers to see. There's also some more, , production office-y elements to it that productions can utilize, like a crew list feature and things like that.

And they have their own sort of diversity metric where you update Crewvie to include all your crew members. And then they put in how, how they identify in various categories. And then it will sort of tell [00:41:00] you if your project meets a certain standard of a diverse hiring. So our show was I think, far and above the standard that they have even, but then also it didn't even include a lot of executives and, , people connected to the project who just didn't complete their profile, who were people of color or, , women in power. So I think it was actually even more diverse than the Crewvie analysis reflected. But a lot of, we used Crewvie to hire some of our crew because we found their profiles, individuals profiles on Crewvie and then just reached out to them.

As Corey said, we had a very, very tight window to hire people in. So a lot of it was just calling as many people as we could who seemed like they would be a fit for the project based on their experience and their potential willingness to work on a tier feature. And we found a lot of great people Yeah.

From there. And then otherwise, just from the normal hiring way of, you [00:42:00] know, word of mouth or people that jeanette and Yolanda had known, or Corey and I had known like obviously, , Lady and Fiona, who we had both worked with before. Yeah.

Cory Sklov: And it was just important. One of the first things that Jeanette, Yolanda told me when I first interviewed with them with them is how important it was to build all diverse crews.

I think with them, along with help of Crewvie and you know, obviously all of us feeling like it's a very important piece of this business. , it was instilled from the start and certainly by, you know, hiring Meko as the director, um, then on down. It was, it was important and I, I think we did a very good job.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what would you say to people who say, it's so hard, it's gonna slow me down. You're asking me to introduce risk onto my production. What would you say to that?

Miranda Pacheco: You have to try. Yeah, it's not, it's not a good enough reason to not do the work, especially with platforms like Crewvie and even just from what we saw, I think the concern of, oh, I'm going to have to extend [00:43:00] myself more as a manager because I am potentially taking a risk, hiring someone who doesn't necessarily have the resume or the experience, or I'm not familiar with them, haven't worked with them before.

All of those don't outweigh the obligation that everyone who is a manager in this industry has to make things more equitable. And then the other thing too is it was the best. Like I said, the crew was so kind, was so respectful. There was suc an energy and a goodwill that people had. And that is a benefit in itself.

Yeah. That maybe outweighs some of the other difficulties of having to put in more work or, you know, help people to learn how to work in a, a way they may not have

Cory Sklov: known before. And I think people who say, , it's gonna slow me down or this, I think that comes out of just fear, you know, and insecurity potentially, and your own job and fear for your job that if you go outside of your comfort zone, that it could reflect poorly on you.

And I think, you know, I [00:44:00] think we all have the responsibility and duty to. , take those the chances, you know, and make sure that our crews represent the world we live

Fiona Wiedermann: in. Yeah, I would say also, just to add to that, when you work with the same people, everyone has the same vision. You're all on the same page, and it might be like easy, but I do think that you legitimately it will make better art.

Like your project will be better, the story will be more nuanced because you're getting different viewpoints, not like the same people that you've worked with forever.

Miranda Pacheco: Mm-hmm. . Sure. And there was a lot of people on this project, I think specifically who said that they came away from it feeling more seen, feeling more a part of the project because there was that comfort.

Like we had, um, on all most features studio features, you have sort of a diversity and inclusion seminar type of thing that the studio sponsors. And we had one of those for this project, which you have on, again, every project has something like this nowadays, but this one was, the [00:45:00] crew was so engaged, like we, it was crazy.

We had probably like a hundred actually over a hundred percent attendance on our Zoom meeting. And people were so engaged and just so, they participated so much in a way that I think was very, Of all the projects that I've been on where people almost treat those seminars as kind of like, oh, this is a, you know, mandatory thing I have to just get done.

But this crew really cared about that and I think put a lot of that to practice in a way that was just awesome.

Julie Harris Oliver: What was your favorite memory from this production?

Miranda Pacheco: My favorite memory was not just one specific memory, but I think it was a lot of the time that me, Fiona, and Lady spent in the office just again, doing really good work, but also having a really fun time and we got along so well and I think we all were learning a lot, but there was such a just good, it [00:46:00] was a good environment and a great team and we did good work, but we also, I think grew and just enjoyed being around each other. So I loved that environment and yeah, it was very ideal.

Fiona Wiedermann: Yeah, I think there's something, I mean, overnights, shooting consistent overnights is very difficult.

Um, I, I wouldn't say like, oh yeah, do this. It's fun. Um, but I think that there's something kind of magical about the, like 2:00 AM window when like all of the normal office logistics stuff can't happen. I, you know, not for the next day. I can like schedule emails to go out. Yeah. But I'm not calling anyone.

Like, I can't really do anything other than just be, so I felt like I got to spend more time on set and see what's happening. I got to interact with more crew. Mm-hmm. . , and it just something about 2 to 3:00 AM you get. This like burst. It's the second wind. You get this burst of energy and everything is great.

And I feel like my favorite memories were those times when it was like, the stress isn't there, everything's happening how it's supposed to be happening and we're all genuinely having a good [00:47:00] time being here.

Cory Sklov: Love it. Yeah. Well I think my actual favorite memory was when we wrapped on our final day of shooting and after, after having been up for 26.

You were the whole day having haven't been up for 26 hours. , I actually established one night I stayed in a courtesy hotel and laid my head down and I had a good two and a half hours of sleep with the black out curtain. But also, I mean that was just like, cause it was so much work, it was so hard.

It was just, It was that moment of just like, wow, we, we did it. We did it. You know? And then I think we

Miranda Pacheco: wrapped early too, didn't they? Wrapped a

Cory Sklov: little early a hair and then, you know, then also just, we wrapped up really quickly. You know, these guys did such a great job of wrapping up all the documents and, you know, um, and then the next, you know, we had a pretty final cost report within two weeks of Picture wrap.

And, you know, from the production side we came in a little under budget and I was very pleased with that. And, , you know, I thought we did a great job, even in [00:48:00] spite of just lots of last minute costs coming in from certain departments. We were able to cover it and, , you know, , cleaned it up and, you know, for the first job, being in control of the cost support from day one till the end, I felt really good about the way it turned out.

Julie Harris Oliver: Good job. Good job. Okay, that brings us to our martini shot. Last shot of the day. Or last question of the podcast, , what advice would you give to someone who is trying to do what you do and trying to get into it?

Cory Sklov: Well, I'll start, I guess. , I always say, , you have to be persistent. , you know, Miranda had a good example. Sometimes people won't answer your calls. They won't, they won't read your emails and, , you know, stay, stay focused and stay on task and no job is unimportant. , and don't think that if you have a job and you're one of, you know, 50 additional back additional PAs on one day, and you're locking up a corner and that's, you know, two miles missing away from the set , you know that you're not doing something important.

Because every job on every movie set is important. And I think that [00:49:00] you know, stay with it. Always. Just always have a good attitude. Always do a good job and people will hire you and ask you to come back. It can be frustrating when you get a job. Sometimes you wanna move up quickly and you want to have access to certain people and you know, be close to the camera or whatever.

But there's so many important jobs in a movie set and everyone's job's important and just keep at it and, you know, stay with it and have a good attitude. And you know, you'll do alright.

The

Miranda Pacheco: tension between, you wanna move up quickly and the industry needs everyone to really be experienced. Yeah. You know, and to not move up too quickly.

And that's a, I think that's a hard tension. Yeah. When you know you're ambitious and you wanna do the thing and you're capable and smart and still people need to experience there's so much at stake. , and that's how you learn in production. You can't really know how to do a job until you actually do it a bunch of times, and even still, [00:50:00] you continue to learn so much, even doing the same job over and over because every project is different, production changes and has different challenges, and the industry's evolving in a different way and I feel like you're working with new people. I think that, that's an interesting question though, because I would say it's almost in production. You don't necessarily need to think about how to become a production supervisor or how to become a UPM. It's like just work opportunity to opportunity and then you'll find out what is, you're gonna do the best at and also what is the most interesting to you.

I didn't start out in the industry thinking that I wanted to be, you know, working in physical production or being a production supervisor, but that just happened naturally in a way where my jobs added up to, oh, this is something that could be interesting for me and that I could be good at.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you think you were gonna do something different?

Miranda Pacheco: Yeah, I, well, I started it in development and then I worked actually in management. , So I had worked in many [00:51:00] different sides of the industry before coming to freelance production and it's almost like every time you think, oh, this is the job I wanna have in 10 years, then life intervenes and you end up doing totally different work then would lead you to that.

So some of it, I would say best advice is just embrace the process. Yeah. And don't put pressure on yourself to have any sort of title by any sort of timeline. Because the exciting thing about production is that you don't need to plan in that way. You can really take it opportunity to opportunity and I think that you'll actually learn more if you're just focused on, as Corey said, doing really good work in whatever position you're in.

And then once that's over, evolve onto whatever is next. I would just say enjoy the, enjoy the journey and the end will sort of manifest itself through that , process.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great advice, Fiona.

Fiona Wiedermann: You know, I would say just to give like [00:52:00] really specific advice, this is something that I'm personally working on and it's hard, but you have to ask, you have to ask people for work.

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. People don't know that you're looking for work. That's true. Mm-hmm. , they nobody, I mean, maybe someone will contact you. Miranda contacted me. It was great, great timing, but you need to put yourself out there, which can be scary. You can feel like you're bothering people, but either they'll respond or they won't, and they're never gonna just like drop jobs in your lap until you're like much more established.

Mm-hmm. , you need to keep asking, even if it's uncomfortable. You need to reach out to anyone you know, and say, Hey, do you know anyone looking for X, Y, Z? Whether it's like a day playing job or like, I have worked subbing in for people on vacation like a bunch recently, and that's been a really great way to just expand my circle, expand who I'm meeting, and like different production environments.

You just gotta keep putting yourself out there.

Cory Sklov: It all takes is for that one person to be like, oh wait, , Nick emailed me the other day and I know someone's looking for a boom. You know? And it's just, that's, that's actually really good advice. [00:53:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: I also wanted to ask you, and I have no idea how old you are, but you were talking about how this is job where you were on the phone, having to call people all the time, and I think a whole, there's a whole generation coming up who just texts doesn't like to answer the phone, doesn't like to talk on the phone, talk about that necessary skill.

Fiona Wiedermann: Yeah. I think growing up I was on the phone a lot and then I feel like I grew up with like, you have three texts, they're for emergencies. You can't really text. So it was always phone calls, . , I know we're not in that world anymore, but that's kind of where my mindset

Julie Harris Oliver: is up with unlimited data. I know,

Fiona Wiedermann: but honestly calling is so ,much faster.

I want everyone to go back to calling. It's much more efficient. Mm-hmm. , we're all driving here. It's much safer to call. Mm-hmm. , like make the phone call. You can catch someone anywhere, even if they're like stepped away from your desk for a second. You will get that answer so much faster and you will get to just keep going on.

You'll get to move forward. You won't be sitting, waiting, anxious for an email that like may or may not come.

Cory Sklov: Plus you can ex, explain. I don't know. For me personally, I do such a better job of communicating what it [00:54:00] is I am after when I talk to somebody as opposed to trying to write a very succinct and, , you

Miranda Pacheco: know, , there's a human element to phone calls that.

Right. Cause you can counsel. It's very important in our business, especially with vendors, because you're not just building a relationship with them for one project. Those are people that you're probably gonna be going back to many times. Especially in the office as you, you know, do features moving forward.

So yeah, it's really great and it comes in handy a lot because then you can ask for favors from those people if they know you and have a connection with you. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, so our takeaway is use the phone.

Fiona Wiedermann: Yeah, use the phone. Use the phone because you make a real connection. I can email someone for months and then that first phone call, you're like, oh, you're the person I've been emailing, like, hello, how's it going?

And like you can finally put that voice to the text, which is really important because you can't. As much as you try, you can't convey everything in text. You can't always tell the tone of voice. You can't. I mean, there are a lot of things that you miss. You miss the nuance and you connect [00:55:00] more like honestly.

And I feel like you get like a much stronger connection. You can hold onto it for longer if you really talk to each other.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's a wrap you guys. Thank you so much, Fiona. Corey, Miranda.

Fiona Wiedermann: Thank you. It was fun.

Miranda Pacheco: Thanks for having us.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch A Break, Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver.

I'd like to thank our guests, Corey Sklov, Miranda Pacheco and Fiona Wiedermann, and special thanks, crewvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Please check out our website at catch a break podcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight Studios and the other 50%.

Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Jocelyn. Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. Next up we talk with Rhonda O'Neil, the Hairstylist and Rahima Yoba, the wardrobe designer.

Let me just say it is a [00:56:00] miracle that even took this job considering the phone call from the UPM seems so suspicious, which now that you've heard Corey, I think it's even funnier. In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.

EP 406: The Cinematographer and the Gaffer

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. The presenting sponsor of Season four of Catch a Break is Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages.

An amazing new back lot featuring New York and LA Downtown Street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices, along with post-production space dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all their clients. Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need and budget.

Find them at santaclaritastudios.com. We are continuing [00:01:00] our Project Greenlight series where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We are dropping new episodes every day. So if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 401.

In this episode, I sat down with cinematographer Andrew Jeric and gaffer Matt Hadley. These guys are going to tell how they did so much with so little to work with budget wise. Basically, technology is your friend. Okay, have a listen. Okay. So I am here today with Andrew Jeric and Matt Hadley.

Raised in Richmond, Virginia, Andrew began crafting his visual skills early in life as a portrait and landscape photographer. His passion for photographic storytelling and love of cinema led him to USC's School of Cinematic Arts where he received his MFA in production with an emphasis on directing in cinematography. Andrew has a passion for delving into the human experience in highly original and technically innovative ways that ultimately engage the viewer's hearts and minds on the deepest of levels.

Telling evocative stories that shine lights on matters that greatly impact the human condition is one of the great [00:02:00] goals of his life. I mean, how great of a paragraph is that in a bio. Since his tenure at USC, he has photographed seven feature films, worked on dozens of commercials for highly priced clients, and traveled the globe working on various stories that bend multiple mediums and genres amongst his accolades.

Andrews the winner of the ASC Heritage Award, the Thomas B. Bush Award for Excellence as cinematography. Best directors at USC's First Look Film Festival and the John Houston Award for Excellence in Directing is also a member of the IA Local 600. Welcome, Andrew.

Andrew Jeric: Wow. Thank you so much. Sounds weird hearing that out loud. Especially since I wrote it.

Julie Harris Oliver: You didn't say it back out loud? Now tell me, what was your very first job in this business and how did you get it?

Andrew Jeric: Oh man. My first job, I was, I knew that question was coming and I honestly, I can't remember. Uh, and, and what I mean by that, I've kind of shot anything and everything under the sun once I, you know, decided to enter [00:03:00] filmmaking.

So I started with documentaries, one man band stuff. I did local news and I don't know exactly what the first thing was. So I guess the best way maybe to talk is like the first biggest formidable project with my first feature film called Papa. And it was, it's supposed to be a small little non-union feature with my friend as director.

And somehow it, in pre-production, it blew up from a under $1 million film to then an $8 million union film between China and us. And it was a co-production. We ended up with a-list actors from China, and it was just, we ended up with like almost a 30 day shoot. We shot in Nevada, LA, everywhere, under the sun.

It was amazing. It was a hell of an experience. Yeah. So I learned, that's the one I would probably pinpoint is just like, and thrown in and just like, all right. Yeah, do I love this? Am I good at this? What the hell am I doing? You know, and, and it turns out, yeah, I loved it all and I, I actually did know what I'm doing, but I also learned how to kind of trust your crew on that project [00:04:00] because before that I was a lot of times like a one man band.

And, uh, that's probably the biggest growth thing is if you wanna be a professional, you gotta learn how to work with other people. So-

Julie Harris Oliver: Usually just go the other direction. That's amazing that that happened. Was your first job as a cinematographer, you didn't work your way up?

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. Yeah. Cause I, I went to, weirdly enough, I kind of went to two film schools.

So I, I went to UC Santa Cruz. I'm from Richmond, Virginia. That's where like, kind of grew up most of my life and stuff. And I knew I wanted to do film. I was just a big film buff, love movie making and stuff. And I didn't know how to get into it. So I applied to a program in, uh, California. I got into UC Santa Cruz.

I started as a psychology major and uh, a film major. And then through the process I just focused on film. And at that point you just kind of did everything yourself, you know, so the director, editor, sound cinematographer and everything. Uh, then once I finished, I came down to LA. I did some bts, some PAing, some, you know, all that kind of stuff.

And for about a year I. You know, [00:05:00] kind of floundered and didn't know what to do. And then I applied to USC grad school cuz that was always something I had heard was like the place to go. You know, George Lucas and all these like great people. And, uh, I, I feel like with UC Santa Cruz, it was a great experience but it was a very lonely experience and I was kind of looking forward to cuz they, they kind of emphasized just you as the artist.

Well, I was looking for a place where I could meet peers and work on projects with other people and stuff. And so I applied to USC and immediately you kind of get like a, a family right off the bat for a better, you know, lack of a better phrase, I guess. You just, you meet a lot of like-minded people.

People are very serious. And for about three years I just. You know, kind of grinded there, slept there. My whole life was there, you know, and, and I met some incredible people and, and people I still work with to this day. So-

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, some people call it family, some people call it USC Mafia. Tomato. Tomato.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Alright, I wanna bring, uh, Matt into this. So, Matt Hadley is a gaffer who started his career gaffing small commercial projects in [00:06:00] Tennessee and Atlanta with friends from film school. After dropping out of college, he spent the first half of his career doing increasingly sized commercials.

Eventually he slowly started finding some movie work and in an effort to further that goal, he moved to Dallas where there were some producers that he knew and did a lot of Indie narrative. Since moving to LA he's been mostly working in the narrative space with only the occasional dip back into commercials. And he joined the IA local and started doing bigger, better union movies since then. Welcome Matt.

Matt Hadley: Hi. Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: Tell us about your first job and how did you get it?

Matt Hadley: Yeah, so I mean, it's like similar to Andrew where it's like, I try to think what exactly the first thing was, and I can't quite remember, but, you know, like it, like it said there basically, you know, some friends of mine from film school who all, we all kind of had different, um, approaches.

One being very DP focused, one being very directorial focused, kind of just got together as a group and started trying to get jobs from companies [00:07:00] in town there in Chattanooga, Tennessee. So we started doing kind of like these small corporate things there. Uh, the one of the early ones I remember was like, we would do, they gave out these like small business awards at the Chamber of Commerce, right?

So like, we would like film, we would film little like video profiles on different local companies for the Chamber of Commerce. And uh, that was good cuz we would, we would film a bunch of different things very quickly and also like meet a bunch of like companies in town and then they might, would come and hire us for stuff.

So it was that, it was this very like small group of like fresh out of college filmmakers just doing kind of like, documentary style commercial work that was like really popular at the time in the commercial world.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great. And then what about when you moved to LA?

Matt Hadley: Uh, yeah, I mean, it was kind of just the natural process of things.

You know, like I kind of always figured I would move to la like a lot of my friends from school went there and have lived there and have been working [00:08:00] there, but I was kind of, I was kind of on a different path. But my time that I spent in Texas, basically, you know, I would do a lot of Andy movies and they would bring DPs from LA to shoot those movies.

So after a few years of, of living there, it got to the point where most of my DP connections, Andrew being one of them, were LA DPs that I had met through these projects where they were either like coming through town and happened to, you know, so I would build these relationships and then they would go back to Los Angeles and it would be hard for us to work together.

And so it got to a point where I had enough connections that I, I felt confident in my ability to, to move that direction.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, great. So that answers my next question, which is, had you worked together before?

Matt Hadley: Yeah. Yeah. This was our third, uh, I think it's just our third.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. Yeah. It feels like we've worked together a lot.

Matt Hadley: We communicate very well and we get along really great, which is awesome. But yeah, only three projects, but they've been in- intense three projects. . Yeah. Yeah. .

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:09:00] So speaking of intense, when you got this call and heard it was Project Greenlight in addition to the film, and you'd have, you'd be in the reality show, what, what made you take this job?

Andrew Jeric: Uh, yeah, it's great question. Well, you know, like I knew about it beforehand cause I shot the short that Meko used to help win, you know, the competition. So it was a no-brainer for me. I, I did it cuz Meko's a really dear friend, it's her first feature. I've known her for seven, eight years now. And we've done a lot of little projects together, mostly just for fun.

Uh, we're very like-minded. And so when she won, I was so proud of her and she asked me to be a part of it. And, uh, you know, that, that led to a longer journey on whether or not I could do it and stuff like that. We could talk about that. But, you know, I just jumped at the opportunity. I knew the Project Greenlight and we can get into it like the, the effect Project Greenlight has on your psyche and, you know, like we could, we could break that down for sure, but, It was a no-brainer for me.

I get to work with one of my close friends who I love dearly, and I get to support her on her first film, and, and she's an incredible [00:10:00] director, talented, and, uh, you know, sky's the limit for her. So it was ha- I was happy to be there for her. And it was easy, easy choice. It was,

Julie Harris Oliver: of course you're gonna do that. Mm-hmm. Matt,

Matt Hadley: how about you?

H kind of similar, right? Like, I mean, it was, it was a, a good size project and it was Andrew, so like I wanted to do it cuz I tend to prioritize working with people I know cuz you know it's gonna be a good situation, you know, regardless. And, and I, I guess I thought it was gonna be really interesting.

Like it would def, I knew it would be one of the most unique movie experiences I'd ever have because how weird is it to have a bunch of people follow you around filming you all the time? So I figured, you know, why not figure out what it was going to be like, at least, you know. But I think it's, it's a lot of the same though, where in a sense like as you tie people to project, you know, like it ties more people down the line.

Cuz I knew Andrew was gonna be on it and so I wanted to do it to like, support him and make sure that he could do something. Awesome.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then let's talk about how weird was it? Did it [00:11:00] change how you interacted or how you did your job? Added this layer? Were you self-conscious about it? How did it, how did it change how you work?

Andrew Jeric: Yeah, all of the above, right? I mean, it's like it made you second guess everything you were saying. Thinking it. I was thinking about it. You know, it's been a couple months since we wrapped production, but it was one of the more emotionally draining, physically is fine. I'm a night owl. It was mostly all night shoots.

We can talk about that in a bit too, but the, it was just the emotional aspect of it, of having to, you always felt like you're walking on eggshells. And I believe, like I'm a big communicator. I think that's the only way to succeed on a super dynamic environment, such as like a film set. You just have to make sure everybody knows what's going on and just communicate and everybody feels free to communicate there concerns, et cetera.

But usually you want to shorthand, you just want to cut through the shit, you know? But like with cameras, like two inches from your face, it really makes you like, is this the right thing to say? Am I saying something stupid? Is this gonna come back and haunt me? [00:12:00] You know, we're all still young in our careers and it's like, you know, it, it.

All this stuff weighs on you. And, you know, uh, the kind of BTSin on is that we get lav'd up the second we parked our car, and then they don't take it off till pretty much 10 seconds till we get back in our car to drive home. So for 12 to 14, sometimes 15 hours, you're being recorded the entire time. And it's just, you know, and you always have to remind yourself that you're being recorded.

And in that moment it just, it's an extra level that your mind has to go through, through your process. Okay, I need to talk to Matt, but I need to like be direct with him. He needs to be a direct with me, but. You know, is this kosher to say this right at this moment? And it's, and honestly, we're all good people.

We didn't say anything crazy, I don't think. I mean, the jury's still out, but it just seems like it. It definitely made communicating that much harder and just drained. It was just a draining. It was like our battery was just naturally just being ticked away knowing that we're being [00:13:00] recorded every second of every day.

Yeah, it

Julie Harris Oliver: sounds exhausting. Matt was a similar for you?

Matt Hadley: For you? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's hard not to kind of be constantly aware of it. It's like he said, you just check yourself before you talk a lot and, and in a sense, a lot of things about filmmaking are not an exact science. So like, it, it's hard to feel like you want to just sit around and kind of like hash a thing out in front of cameras when like, maybe you want to put off the image that you just know the answer to everything.

But like, it's never really like that. So it's like, I don't know. I feel like there's this pressure to do things well, especially because like in any like filmmaking scenario, the last one who's like ready becomes the center of attention, right? Like, innately, if your department is not ready and everybody's waiting for you.

EVerybody else is like super aware of it. And then add in that there's gonna be cameras there that are like gonna be right there. It's just, it, I think it added for me a level of stress to make sure that like my department looked like they knew what they were doing, right? Because like, we're like [00:14:00] representing the local and you know, like we're representing the, the, the crew base there.

So it's like you don't want to end up on TV and look like you don't know what you're doing. So, yeah, I don't know. I think it was just something that you always, and you'd like. And also just like he said, it's like you say something and then you're like, ah, man, are they like, did they just record that? And I'm like standing off like way off to the side of set.

Like just being aware of like that, there's always like, oh yeah, wait, wait, wait, I'm, I'm being mic'd.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, I would've just got home every night and replayed everything I said all day and then had just had so much anxiety. Did you have that?

Andrew Jeric: That totally happened. I mean, self-censorship was a word that we used amongst ourselves.

We had a self-censor a lot. Yeah. And whenever we kind of broke that, because we're in the, you know, heat of the moment or whatever it would weigh on you. I mean, there was one really bad weekend I had where I just felt like Friday night, it just, you know, we, I think we were three weeks in. I was just exhausted.

Everybody was exhausted and I don't know if I made a right choice and it was all on camera, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, I went home that whole weekend, just kind of just like, [00:15:00] Banging my head against the wall, just like, man, like is this gonna come back to haunt me? Normally it wouldn't. It's just like, okay, you fix it, you move on.

You know, you try not to dwell on it cuz you, the cool thing about features is that you could kind of make a mistake and then recorrect the next day cuz it's an ongoing process, more of a marathon than a sprint. Like unlike with commercials or music videos. But on this it just feels like every moment might come back to haunt you

So you know that I remember that weekend and that was, that was a rough weekend and I just made a choice that I can't keep working that way and I just need to let go and who cares? Just enjoy the process. There was another week left and just have fun with it. So, And then that changed. It was just, it's just a mental shift that, hey, whatever, just be myself and have fun with it.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's ultimately you've no control over the edit.

Andrew Jeric: So who knows how and, and honestly who knows? Like Matt not, might not even be in it. I might not be in it. You know? You don't know. Or Matt might be the villain of the show. We don't know. Or I might, we have no idea how this is gonna turn out and we have no control over it. And one of the little side back stories was just how hard it was [00:16:00] to crew up on this project. It was one of the hardest projects I've ever had to do. And I'm so thankful for Matt. He was kind of just like, yeah, I'm down. You know? But because of that, because of Project Greenlight, I mean, people were already, it was already in their head before they even joined the project, you know?

And they're just like, nah, it's not worth the stress. No, I don't, I don't know how they're gonna represent me. Uh, you know, and, and so I was losing ACs, grips, all it just, you name it, it was, it was, it was a very complicated show to crew up for me. Wow. Tough.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. So, shifting a little bit, what sort of challenges did you have to overcome for the film of it all that may or may not end up in the show?

We don't know at this point was gonna be in the show, but what are some of the challenges you had to figure out how to overcome?

Andrew Jeric: Just, uh, part of the PGL or the movie or, uh?

Julie Harris Oliver: Part of the movie?

Andrew Jeric: Honestly, the movie, you know, production, our schedule was tough. Like on the movie side of it, say PGL didn't exist for this project.

We just made the movie as is. It was just gonna be hard shooting. I mean, it was almost 18 days at night. Mm-hmm. , you know, [00:17:00] regardless whether or not we had day scenes, whatever. It just, the way the schedule worked out for many reasons. And then I think I heard rumblings that we were like 23 or 24 days, something like that originally.

And then we ended up in the 18 day spectrum, which is always difficult, especially for a genre of film. Now if you have like two people talking at a restaurant, you know, 18 days is actually not bad. But, you know, we had tons of locations, action scenes, VFX special effects, um, makeup, wardrobe changes, it, you know, it's a complicated show.

And to do that in 18 days, I mean that's always gonna be tough. And then you add Project Greenlight on top of it, it. You know, it just amplified itself. And also to be clear, Project Greenlight, they were awesome people for me. Like I work with them great. We got along, they're easy to communicate on my end.

But they're big. They're big. And they had a big footprint I think, um, when I first joined it. And I think a lot of other people maybe felt this way, that they would be like a small documentary crew following us around. But I mean, it felt like they were like 20 to 30 deep [00:18:00] every day. I mean, when we were in production, they were six, seven cameras.

They had drones, they had all kinds of technical gadgets. I mean, they were, they were everywhere. They had to cover everybody. They had to cover everybody. Every department had, was lavved up. Um, and they were there from beginning to end and they had longer hours than we did. And, uh, you know, it didn't matter how big or small the location was, they were right there and they were right there, you know, and that,

you know, that that changes the energy. That shifts the energy, especially with the actors. And, you know, Meko's a first time director and, and that's what she signed up for for sure. That's why she got this opportunity, but I mean, for her. Wow. You know, God bless her dude. Like the Yeah. You know, at least I'm secure in what I'm doing.

That's, you know, her first film that's, that was rougher. I was glad to be there for her. And, and she had some other good friends that had her back. But I mean, it's just, it took an already complicated shoot and just, you know, stuck it in the blender and shook it upside down, you know? So, so

Julie Harris Oliver: how did you all [00:19:00] prep for that to do it in such a short period of time?

I imagine you had to show up on set every day knowing exactly what you were gonna

Andrew Jeric: try to do sometimes. I mean, that's where Matt came in too. Matt was huge for me. He was like the. On my side because shorthand is everything, especially when you have, don't have a lot of prep. So just so your audience, you know, may or may not be aware, but like usually on a project of this scale, you might have four weeks of prep.

But I would also have done a lot of prep with the director beforehand. I knew the script, usually a lot of sweat equity would've already gone into this project on my end. But the nature of this thing is Meko got a kind of an un uh, a solid but unfinished script that was meant to be worked on and the cameras would capture that process.

So she didn't write it. And she only got a couple weeks before I got brought on. I got brought on three weeks before production, uh, and the script was still being shifting a lot. And so, you know, there was no real sweat equity then there was just three weeks from reading a [00:20:00] script that was gonna change to then shooting it.

Um, and then I fought and they were only gonna gimme Matt, you know, cuz a budget reasons Matt was gonna come on, I think like two, three days before production. And I don't wanna waste his time and, you know, I respect him as a professional. So it's like, you know, I don't wanna take up too much of his time.

He has other projects too, so I fought really hard to bring him on for a week early and thank God, uh, our UPM was, was awesome. Uh, Cory to listen and he eventually agreed to bring on that. And that was huge for me because that shorthand just helped the process so much. I mean, you know, we, we only got a shot list about half the movie.

I mean, shot listing's a real process. You don't do that in a day. It takes about a month to do a feature film. And so we, we were in good shape, I think the first week or two, and then we started to have to rely on our, you know, stylistic bible, and our shorthand, et cetera, to kind of get through the last two weeks.

So

Matt Hadley: yeah, I think [00:21:00] it's, I mean, it is like killing it with prep is the, is the way to do it on a short schedule. And like he said, like we already did have a short prep timeline. I, I was, I was very lucky and I relied very heavily on my best boy Dave, um, kind of to, to work in tandem with me, you know, from, from the logistics side of our department.

It's like he was able to stay, you know, several steps ahead so that like we, you know, we did really good notes when we were there on the scout and he was on the scout and, and could basically be prepping things, you know, slightly ahead of where we were. Right. And in a lot of, in a lot of scenarios, normally you'd have like a rigging team who would go and do that.

And we couldn't really afford, you know, full-time rigging team. And Dave worked a lot of magic in the way. He would sneak off with people from the crew to like the next location and start getting stuff ready. And like that was, that was only possible because we happened to shoot it all in this one kind of [00:22:00] complex, right?

Like that, that was like the most massive thing for my department. Cuz I could work on sets that we weren't shooting for like two to three days, but they were only like around the block from us. Right. So like, we kind of had access to everything and if there was ever like, you know, something that we wanted to talk about, we could, like, I could go over there with, with Dave or whatever and we could talk about what we were doing and get the plan ready.

So it's like having like a really, really solid kind of, notes and logistics timeline in our, in our department is really important because like we just had to be, we had to be like way ahead of everybody else, like, like at least a day to two days ahead of everybody else to be able to keep up because our manpower was just like not there for how big of what we were doing.

Right? Like it was all night work. So like very few things were like just a couple lights or whatever. Like when you shoot night exteriors, we'd have to blanket like huge areas for us to be able to shoot in. So like, it was definitely a lot [00:23:00] of, of, of trying to like be prepared for these things before we get to it.

And most of that was spending all the, all of your time working on it. Like, like. Most weekends, I was probably spending most of my weekend time prepping for the next week, which is like unfortunate, but like a necessity at times. And like, I think better for me than like going into something feeling like I haven't thought about it and trying to do it on the fly.

Cuz we would've never been able to keep up with the pace that this movie had to go at.

Andrew Jeric: Did just add one final thing to that? It's like I have a new mantra and like it's fix it and prep. I mean this, you know, it's like prep is everything, you know, and you know, I. To Yolanda, and Jeanette did a brilliant job and with Corey every who they, by finding this incredible location that worked for like 95% of the movie.

I mean, that, that was the life safe saver of the project. I mean that if we had to jump around to different areas of LA. With lots of company [00:24:00] moves and stuff, it, it probably would've collapsed on itself. You know, it is just a very ambitious film for the resources we had. But the cool thing is like usually when you're given this like, oh, guess what, we're gonna shoot on one location.

It's kind of like that tends to fit production, not creative, but this was, you know, to benefit them. They found a place that worked for both, which is awesome. They know what they're doing. Yeah, they definitely do. They were awesome. They're great

Julie Harris Oliver: producers. I wanna hear a bit about your lighting of it all.

Cause I heard you use some kind of board. I don't know what a, that means. Tell us about that.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah.

Matt Hadley: Yeah. So a thing that has been, I think a driving, a driving factor in my success and, and the reason I get along really well with DPs is like there's been this thing going on in the lighting world where D M X is becoming very popular and wireless D M X specifically, it's basically the ability for us to control the lights remotely.

It's been around for a very long time. But up until recently, like only within the past 10 years has it become kind of [00:25:00] ubiquitous on even like smaller scale shoots. And I like years and years ago, started learning it because I thought it was going to be like this really important future thing for the lighting department.

And so because of that, we have a lot of capabilities that I think that a lot of smaller shoots or shoots of that scale wouldn't be able to pull off. Because like normally if you want to do like complex D M X work, you need to hire a lighting console programmer. And I, I can do all of that myself because I went and I learned how to do all of it.

And so, you know, a thing that that that provides me and Andrew is one we can, we can operate very quickly because it's very fast for us to. Things on the fly with lights, right? Like we can easily dim and change the colors like very quickly, you know, which is a thing that used to take a lot of time when it used to be like somebody had to go to each light to mess with it, right?

And then, you know, the other side of that is that it allows us to do a lot of effects work, which is something that has become [00:26:00] kind of a common staple for us. And, and for me in general with most of my work is that, you know, like the ability to program the lights to flicker or flash, like if you, if you look at any, any modern, like Everything Everywhere All At Once is a good example.

Um, Euphoria is like a good example where like a lot of the modern language and lighting is starting to become this thing where there's a lot of like, on camera lighting effects that are done, which was something that used to only really get done on like much higher end movies. Uh, so on this movie you'll see a lot of it, right?

There's a lot of scenarios where, from little things like, you know, being able to create a very specific color palette that we can copy to different lights, you know, and so that we can like flash different colors very quickly to decide how we want to like color a scene with the lights. And then also things where it would be like, you know, like there's a scene where there's an alarm and you know, we're [00:27:00] like chasing lights down the length of a corridor and it's, there's a lot of stuff like that that, that wouldn't have been possible if we didn't have access to this, this kind of like high level D M X work, which just happens to, happens to be kind of one of my. My specialties as a gaffer.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. And let me add, uh, like Matt's like kind of underselling it too, his abilities because like, this is a brave new world. This stuff, this technology is a game changer for sure. And, uh, you know, me personally, like I'm somebody that believes every film should have a specific style, you know, like, but it's dictated by the story, of course.

But in the past when you didn't have this kind of resources and this technology and the people that can implement it, you know, you might not be able to, you know, like you had to kind of dumb your style down because you couldn't actually achieve what you wanted to achieve. But now you can. I mean, but to be said, and what I mean by his under underselling himself is like the stuff he was able to do on a project at this scale, I still believe you need a bigger film to be able to do what we were able to do.

And a lot of it's just Matt's abilities. [00:28:00] Uh, his knowledge with, with the tools that he has and his, and he's so fast at it. I mean, so we were able to do effects. I mean, he brought up Euphoria and Everything Everywhere. Awesome projects, awesome stories. But, you know, they're massive too. You know, like, I think.

Everything Everywhere. It's like a 30, 40 million movie and it's super ambitious, but you know, it's still a 30, 40 million project. So we were able to do stuff that's like still way outside, even now by today's standards, outside of our, uh, budget and schedule just because of disabilities, you know? So, and that's awesome for me because like now I finally get to like, I can dream more, I wanna dream more.

I don't wanna be like held down by gravity. I wanna be able to fly, you know, and it's just like, oh, this story deserves this. And now, you know, working with Matt and, and new l e d technology and all that stuff, like we're able to achieve, you know, the unachievable before. So this was unheard of even 10 years ago.

Like, to be able to do something like that on this scale, even five years ago maybe. Mm-hmm. . Can you define DMX?

Matt Hadley: DMX is a [00:29:00] protocol that lights use to communicate, to like, change the settings of lights. Right? So like it's, it started in the, the, in the like theater live world, right? Yeah. So like all like concerts and everything, like DMX has been that for all of most, like the history of like, of console lighting, right? So like it's, it's a thing that's being brought from the rock and roll world and started to use more commonly on movie sets, largely because they've made a very solid, reliable wireless system for it. It used to be that you had to run cables between all of the lights, which is, you know, a manpower issue.

And also just like software avail, like a DMX board is like super, super expensive, right? Like on the lower end, you know, $20,000 maybe for like a low end DMX console. But like things these days, there's definitely like more modern computer based solutions. And I have, I have kind of built my own custom setup that I use.[00:30:00]

It has a lot of advantages, but it lets us be really small, right? Because like the idea of like dragging a console around is really tough because it's a big thing to bring onto a location movie set and have it there every single day, right? So, you know, over the past few years I've kind of created this system that is very like compact and can, can move at the speed that like a, a low budget narrative thing moves around.

So, you know, it's essentially, it's a thing that has been around for a long time, but has, has kind of just now gotten refined to a point where it fits into the equation for these like smaller, low budget things. And it's, it is a thing that I think you'll see in some form on almost every movie these days, right?

Like a lot of 'em, you can just kind of have an iPad that lets you dim and control all of the lights, and that's like super common these days. But our setup that we were using was, you know, is Grandi a three, which is like top two. Of of [00:31:00] like DMX, that's like DMX software that's like available, right?

So like we had access to the tool set that was the same tool set that was being used on all of these other projects and these much bigger projects, but within like a smaller, more like compact and affordable picture.

Julie Harris Oliver: And you just made this part of your kit that you bring?

Matt Hadley: Yeah, it's just a thing that I drag along with me because I can't, I can't, I actually don't know how I would do a movie without it at this point.

Right. Like, it's like the idea of of having to like tell people, cuz for me, like I really love just like sitting at a monitor and, and tweaking all of your like last tweaks of a light. Like once all of your lights are set up in a space and me and Andrew can just sit there and he can be like, okay, let's go down 10 points on this one and let's go up five on that one so that you can kind of do stuff that like you wouldn't, you wouldn't do before because you didn't have the time to be doing that.

Right. And we can like, tweak things about lights in between takes or like, while they're slating and like nobody really [00:32:00] notices, right? Like it lets us be a little- we get this kind of like last level of tweaking that we can do that like, Prevent anybody else from like continuing in the process, which is, which is really nice.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. They're never waiting on us. That's a big goal.

Julie Harris Oliver: So, so you said it was gonna be a lot faster and a lot more nuanced? It sounds like.

Matt Hadley: Very efficient. Yeah. Yes. Right. And then it's like you can try things really easy. Like we talked about, like color was really big in this movie, right? So like scenes, each scene, for the most part, Andrew had kind of like come up with a color palette that we developed for like different portions of the movie.

So we would have like four or five different color of light that was like assigned to each scene. And then once we set up all the lights, we could easily take each of those colors and try them on different lights in the scene to see how we thought they like fessed mixed together. Whereas like back in the day, we would've had to cut gels and we would've gone and put gels on all of those lights and you would have to decide that before we started rigging.

Because once you've rigged stuff, it's too [00:33:00] late to go in and then change it. But like we could just put the lights in and then sit there, change all the colors on the fly until we found the way that the pallet worked for that specific scene.

Andrew Jeric: Right. Amazing. It's awesome stuff now. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: How important is a script supervisor to what you both are doing?

Andrew Jeric: Script supervisor works more closely with the director. I'd say. Um, you know, they, they're useful for me if, if we need to like, revisit something or we're unsure about something as a group or something, you know, like of where an actor might have stood on this one point or, you know, um, things like that.

But they usually work much more closely with the director working

Matt Hadley: with the actors. Yeah. My, most of my interactions with them are the, occasionally, occasionally I'll want to change something from like a different shot because it's better, like, I want this lamp to be here. Or like, blinds I think are an often thing that we tend to open and close blinds more or less, depending on camera angles.

So they'll check that with me. But especially in situations where we're going back to something we've [00:34:00] already shot, or inevitably shooting like little inserted pickups of a scene that we've already shot, they're, they're like a go-to person that I know I can go get. Like photos and stuff of that shot all the time.

Right? Like DIT, you can obviously also get to pull stuff, but like most script supes have a really quick direct line to like, oh, can you grab this, the frames from this scene so that I can see how we lit it that time so that I can recreate it really quick for these like little tight, you know, shots that a lot of the time you'll go up and pick later in your schedule, like at a studio or something.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah, they're, they're very useful for that and, and for what we do. And obviously they work with my AC team and stuff on slates and things like that. Um, but in terms of just my personal interaction with 'em, it, it tends to be fairly limited. Um, unless, yeah, like, you know, we, we have to revisit something, which happens quite a lot.

It's like, oh, we forgot this and, and then you try to do a pickup the next day or something and you just gotta remember where everything was.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I heard that two, the two of you were [00:35:00] particularly kind and respectful to the script supervisor, so I was trying to figure out what is the question that'll bring that out.

Andrew Jeric: I, I don't know what, uh, her previous experiences with other DPs and Gaffers , but you know, like, I mean, are I look at myself as somebody, we're people first, you know, I mean, like, I don't like this filmmaking works well in a, in a hierarchy sense, but we shouldn't impose that power on people and treat people like shit.

I mean, that's, I don't believe in that at all. And, and so like we should enjoy the process, love working with each other as much as we can, and just treat people with respect right off the bat. And then on top of that, those are the people I hire, it's like-minded people. So I just figure, you know, I don't ever wanna hear my crew's been disrespectful to anybody else.

You know, like so, and, and they aren't. Matt's awesome like Keith, my AC's awesome. Lbs, my key group is awesome. And, and then I expect them to hire like-minded people as well. So it all just trickles down, you know? Mm-hmm. and, and so then I keep hearing, oh my team's so nice to the script supervisor and all I could think about was just like, what were these other people in past [00:36:00] projects doing to the script supervisor, you know?

And our scripty was very nice. Yeah, exactly. Our scripty, our scripty is very nice. She's, she's awesome.

Matt Hadley: So, yeah, it's interesting cuz like, I feel like in a broader sense there's maybe a lot of like, bad habit association with the way that people act on film sets and have acted on film sets throughout, like the history of movie making, right?

Like if you've ever worked with like significantly older people, like you will know that like it, it has always been kind of like a say whatever you want. No holds bard situation thing, and especially in the grip and electric department. I feel like there's this. There's this idea that like, they're always these like grumpy old men, and like that's like partially I think like, based on truth.

But I think as like young filmmakers, it's something that we need to like approach and like fix, right? Because it should not be abnormal that we are like nice and respectful to everybody. Like we're all adults and like we should be able to go like, act like adults and [00:37:00] talk to each other, like adults on film sets, which I don't think is, is necessarily the norm in the, in the grander scheme of things, you know?

And I think that's something that's like on us, right? Because like we have this opportunity to, to change things because like as a department head, I can like enforce that very strongly. And I do, like my crew knows, like they don't get to probably be the way that they get to be under this other person.

And I think it's just a thing that is, is becoming less as a problem as time goes on. But it, it is interesting. It's one of those things that like, I have like taken it upon myself. As, as like a young filmmaker to, to never, to never get caught doing. And I have, I definitely have situations where I, I know that I've been on like really rough movie projects where I, I acted in ways that I probably shouldn't have, you know?

But this movie specifically, it's like, it would've been impossible. Everybody on that crew is so nice. Like, it was like one of the nicest like peop groups of people that I've been able to work [00:38:00] with, you know? So it was like, it's really easy when everybody is just like super respectful to each other, to kind of maintain that bar.

You know? I think that was one of the things about this movie, you know, in hindsight that I really appreciate is that like, especially like with production and everybody, you know, it was just, it was super easy to communicate because everybody was very respectful of each other. Uh, and I don't think anybody was really causing problems, you know, in that sense.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah, I definitely echo the same thing. And, and let's be clear, this, that kind of a vibe on set is, is top down, right? Still. Again, I give all credit to Yolanda, Jeanette and, and their team because you don't, uh, you don't work on a project where the producers are super nice and then all of a sudden, like other department heads or scumbags or, you know, or the PA's physic-, you know, verbally abusing PAs, it just doesn't happen.

You know, it's like, it's definitely a top down thing. And, and they cultivated one of the absolutely most respectful, nicest crews I've ever worked with, for sure. And I'm not one of those [00:39:00] people that's like after every project they were the best or they were the, you know, like I know people do that stuff and I don't, uh-

Julie Harris Oliver: Sometimes you're just like, ah, it's over.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. Oh, many, many times. Too many times. In fact, you, you, you kind of wonder like, why does it need to be that way? You know? And, and so that's why I believe you gotta lead by example. Um, believe in the golden rule, you know, just treat people how you wanna be treated and then, you know, but, you know, as a cinematographer, I have power on set, but I only have so much, you know, so it still needs to come from producers and directors and, and usually the top talent and stuff, the actors.

And it, it, it cascades down.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it does feel like we're in, like, we're in a cultural shift in that way, cuz you're talking about environment on set was one way for a hundred years and now there's a generation coming in that has such a different tolerance for poor treatment. Thank goodness. What do you, do you think it's just a matter of setting the tone and, and people behaving better?Or do you think it'll take more than that?

Andrew Jeric: I'm one of those people that, [00:40:00] you know, again, if everybody actually followed the golden rule, 8 billion people, 90% of the world's problems go away immediately. So I think you, you know, you gotta be lead by example, you know, and that's the very least you can do.

You know, obviously if you get more power in the industry, you can say you're a studio head or a CO of your production company, you might have more power over the situation. But when, on each project at the very bare minimum you can do is just lead by example and treat everybody with respect from, from the get-go.

And, and that, I think if it amplifies cuz people like that, you know, and then I hear it all the time. Thank you, I appreciate that. And I'm like, I don't do it for compliments or anything, I do it cuz that's just the environment I believe should be cultivated. But it's nice to hear that and I hope it carries on and people are like, oh, I remember when I was on this one set and I, and everybody was treated, it was so much better being treated with respect and now I'm going to do the same.

And you know, and I think it's just, You know, that can, um, spread like a wildfire in the best way possible. Mm-hmm.

Matt Hadley: [00:41:00] Yeah. And I think people are just less, like you said, like less likely to do things in situations where it's like that. Right? Like, cuz like in film, we're in this kind of unique position where we choose what we do, right?

Like, you choose your jobs. And I think that, you know, for me, if I end up in a situation where somebody's like, not great to work with, I'm just not gonna work with that person again. And, and while I think that's like very localized in that like, it solves a problem for me in that like, I'm building relationships with people who see things the same way that I do, I think as a whole, it's just gonna move that way because ev everybody is starting to see that like, it doesn't have to be that way and that it doesn't actually benefit anybody.

So like, people will just not hire people who are assholes, right? Like you're, you're just not gonna hire somebody if you don't wanna work with them. And that, that I think will slowly kind of like, breathe the curve, the curve out where it's like there's just not as many people who are getting, getting work because there are so many people in [00:42:00] it now who are very talented and who are very good to work with, right?

Like the pool is huge. Like the film industry's never been accessible like this, right? Like I think people used to really fear for their jobs in the film industry that like one slip up would get you fired or, or, I really just need to put up with this because it's the only way for me to like get into this industry.

But it's, I just, there's so many avenues and there's so much availability of work that like, I think it'll just be that eventually people won't be able to hire people if they want to act that way because everybody will just know.

Julie Harris Oliver: Scarcity is not our current problem.

Andrew Jeric: No, not at all. You know, and I like, I was, I blessed with a great mentor, Peter Levy, he's an ASC cinematographer and you know, he's had incredibly long and wonderful career, but a lot of our talks are like what it was like in the past and stuff.

And yeah, it was, you know, department heads were like more like magic men back in the day. The town pool was so much smaller [00:43:00] and people didn't know how they did the things they did. And so they, there was a higher tolerance for uh, if somebody did have an attitude problem and they were in charge, but they knew how to do something nobody else knew how to do.

And so it was just like, people just put up with that. Cause at the end of the day, they just wanted, you know, they wanted the project to be great or they want to make money. And th-, that's not the way it is anymore. Like, like Matt said, the, the talent pool is just astronomical. And, and if you, if there's a will, there's a way, I mean, there's no.

That may secrets anymore. It's all you. You know, you can go to film schools, you can watch how movies are made, read books, you can be on set. I mean, there's a million ways to learn how just about anything's done now. So, you know, there's no reason to bring that kind of negative attitude and that's such a positive shift in, in the industry.

So I applaud that a hundred percent. So much of our life's spent on set. So who the hell wants to be? You know? And I've heard those stories too from like from different key grips and stuff like that. They would, you know, cuz everybody works with different people so they're like, oh you know, thank you for communicating to me. My last boss would just, you know, throw things at me. And so I'm just like, [00:44:00] what world? We ? Like how is that, that's insane to me. You know?

Julie Harris Oliver: How is that allowed to go on for a hundred years?

Andrew Jeric: It's insane. It's insane. It's just cuz accountability. Right? And they were protected. They were protected class of. You know, they're obviously very talented at their job, but they, you know, kind of created little, you know, little dictators, little narcissistic power trip and big dictators and, you know, that's just not the case anymore. Thankfully.

At least it's starting, you know? I mean, I'm sure they still exist. I know they do, but hopefully, like Matt said, they're gonna get, get weed out eventually.

Julie Harris Oliver: Alright. You're giving us hope for the future.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. Yeah, me too. Well, it's our future too. You know? We, it's just, you know. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Uh, tell me your favorite memory from Gray Matter.

Matt Hadley: I don't know, anything specific. I really, I enjoyed, uh, I enjoyed the studio day because we did stuff that was a little bit way outside of my norm, right. With the sitcom lighting, which was really interesting. And then, you know, we got to do kind of [00:45:00] some interesting soft box overhead stuff, which was really fun.

I think that was one of my, just like in general, as far as like locations that we did, it was the biggest one for my department, but it was also the day that I probably enjoyed lighting the most.

Julie Harris Oliver: So there's a day where you shot a sitcom inside the movie?

Andrew Jeric: Mm-hmm. ? Yeah. Well, there was a, there's what we call the psychic hell.

Scene or, you know, uh, segment in the film where our main protagonist, she's like going through all her memories, um, but it's kind of like a warped version of her memories and stuff. And she loves sitcoms. That was like her escape from her everyday life. And now she actually enters the sitcom, but we had to shoot the real sitcom that she watches on TV and then an alternate version, a nightmarish version where she actually enters the sitcom.

And that was a lot of fun for sure. That was, you know, cause it was just, we actually used Tungston lights for that. We recreated the vibe of an actual, like 80 sitcom and stuff. And again, doing this kind of stuff on a budget and, and schedule is not something we get a to do a lot. So it was, it was a lot of fun and I think we were really [00:46:00] successful at it.

And from what I heard, everybody was super happy with that day and, and the results are awesome.

Julie Harris Oliver: So, well, from my, what I've been hearing, everyone's saying that's, that's the most fun day.

Andrew Jeric: You all. It was fun. I mean, it's fun, you know, and, and you could tell the actors had a lot of fun too, cuz they got to, you know, really step outside their characters and stuff and just, yeah, it, it was, it was good times, you know.

But I guess my, my favorite memory was honestly, my favorite moment is always the drive home on the last day. And it's hard to explain. It's since I put so much pressure on myself to, you know, just give each project 110% that I, while I do enjoy it, I have a lot of fun on set. I'm also very serious on set and I, you know, again, it's a marathon, so you're like, it's hard to be like, I did great on Tuesday when, you know, you have a big obstacle or a big challenge on Wednesday, you know, so, On this film, I was particularly proud of myself and my work and my team on the last day at the drive home, I was like, ah, you know, like, job well done. Yeah, job well done. Especially cuz we were driving home at like nine in the [00:47:00] morning or so , so it was like, our location was at Pomona, California, so it was about an hour from proper from LA And so, you know, it was a nice calm drive home, you know, and just the sun's coming up and everything and just kind of like, like, ah, yeah, job well done.

It's good. It, it only lasts for about a week, that feeling. But you gotta, you gotta enjoy it. You gotta enjoy it.

Julie Harris Oliver: What did you have on the radio at that moment? Did you have a soundtrack for this?

Andrew Jeric: Uh, yeah, I had the wind. That's how I do. Yeah. Just I lower the car windows and just blow dead

Matt Hadley: silent. I can't believe this is over.

It's funny cause I don't, you know, I didn't let it, it's hard to wanna say, uh, when it was over was the best part, but like, he's super Right, right. Like it's, you can't really let yourself celebrate anything because you always know there's something like that, you're like, oh, well this was the thing that I was most worried about.

But then, you know, next week something comes up that, that is like a big problem and you have to solve it or whatever. Like, being able to be like, I don't have to worry about anything and I get to just like sleep without, like, worrying about anything is, is [00:48:00] the best feeling in the world because it's like for, I think that movies tend to be very all consuming compared to a lot of filmmaking and, and like, I think similarly to him, it's like literally, it'll be the first time since I officially agree to do the project that I'm not worried about something like every other second between that. In the back of my head, I'm thinking about something that has to do with that movie, right? Like it's, you can't ever really let it go.

Julie Harris Oliver: so you can release the mental load for a minute.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. You know, and we, we, we did what we wanted to set out to do. I mean, there's other reasons you might celebrate the last day of a shoot, you know, especially some of the more insane ones. But this one, it just like, you felt like, wow, you know, you really, you put yourself in danger with the document or you put yourself out there, I should say not danger, but you put yourself out there in a way that you might not have been comfortable with. So, you know, you deserve credit for that. But then also we, I do believe we had, you know, excelled at telling the story we wanted to tell. So it was like a win-win. And those, you don't always get those, [00:49:00] you know, on every project. Sometimes you, you leave a project with regret or something, or you didn't get along with, you know, the, this production team or whatever.

But on this one, it was just like, everybody was super cool. We put ourselves outside our comfortable zone, our comfort zone. So we did, you know, we should be proud of ourselves for that. And then on top of that, like we actually made the movie we set out to make, you know, so like, it was, it was a unique, like really, really good feeling.

So that drive home was special for sure. So,

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And what a vulnerable thing to do to be under the microscope as you do it.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And we'll see how it all turns out.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah-

Matt Hadley: We'll see. I mean, we'll see how that turns out.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah. The jury's out on that one.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's funny.

Andrew Jeric: I, I hear like two episodes will be kind of dedicated to the production, but obviously I'll be involved in the prep of it and, and Matt had influence on prep too, so we don't know how much we're gonna be in this thing. But yeah, the jury's out on it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, uh, it's gonna be way more fun for me to watch it now. Having met all of you, I will, I will be tuning.

Andrew Jeric: Well, well, let me know how it goes. Cause I honestly, I [00:50:00] probably will not, I've thought about this a lot. I don't think I'll be tuning in only cuz I just, like, I experienced it. I put myself out there. I'm proud of that. I'm proud of everybody. Onward and upward. You know, . Yeah. I wanna keep that memory. Exactly. I don't wanna be like, oh, that's what they used. Oh, that's the moment they show.

Julie Harris Oliver: All right. Well that brings us to a martini shot cuz although this has felt like five minutes, it's been an hour. So you all know what a martini shot is. I'm gonna ask you the last question of, of the podcast. So my question is, what advice would you have for someone who is just getting in and wants to do what you do?

Andrew Jeric: Uh, it's a big one. Yeah, please. Cause I got something. Go thing.

Matt Hadley: Um, I feel like, like if, if as, as like general, if you're trying to get into the film industry, like very definitely remember that every job is like your job interview for your next job. It's like super basic, but it's really important, right?

Like that is like if you getting more, like you, you don't really like go search for work in the film industry. You, you leave an impression that [00:51:00] gets you recommended for more work. That's like the most common way. So like, definitely always like always be trying to come across as the person who's like working really hard and, and trying to like learn about, like if you don't understand a thing, ask about it and learn it. Right? Like, I think that a lot of people might be nervous to say, I don't know what that thing that you just asked for is, or, I don't know how to do that. Ask. It's, it's, it's different now than it used to be. And people want to teach you and if you show that you wanna learn, they will take that time, you know, to teach you.

And specifically if you're interested in the electrical department, learn about DMX. It is, it is so important. And it is a thing that, like on every scale of movie, you, you kind of always end up needing a few people on your crew who understand the ins and outs of like, setting up the network. And if, if you're the electrician who knows what's best you're gonna be put in a good situation where you [00:52:00] can be solving these problems. You'll be closer to the gaffer. It's just, it's, it's super important. It's like the most important thing in the electric department right now. So take some time to, to learn about like DMX networking because it will help you go like very, very far, I feel like in this, in this industry right now.

Andrew Jeric: Yeah, I mean that, that is all absolutely great advice. I mean, the other thing is just like knowing what's the most important stuff in this industry. One is I think people miss, think talent's number one. That's not true. It's, it's perseverance a hundred percent. Like you, you have to believe in yourself.

Define goals for yourself, or the industry will define 'em for you. So like, you know, if you wanna get into narrative, you know, like what kind of narrative, like features, tv, mini-series. And then on top of that, what kind of genres do you like? Do you like dramas? Do you like horror films, et cetera. It's, it's too vague to just be like, I want to tell, make movies or something.

Really define it for yourself. Or you might find yourself in the industry, but there's a way that it's like a river. It's got a current and it'll shift you in a way you might, you know, you might end up for 10 [00:53:00] years and you didn't realize how you got there. So, you know, as early as you can define what you truly love about the industry and then use that as your North Star.

Absolutely. It's a people industry first. People ask me all the time, like, cause I went to USC, I got my master's there. They're like, Hey, You know, was it awesome? Was it worth it? Should I go to film school? And that's a personal choice. You do not have to go to film school to succeed in this industry. But what going to a school like USC does is it gives you that family or that mafia or whatever you might wanna call it.

It just gives you a network, cuz it's a people industry first and foremost. I mean, I would say 90, 95% of my jobs for the first five to seven years right outta school were all just my peers who were just working together. And that was super invaluable. You know? Now my network's branched out beyond that.

But you get this beautiful experience of just having like-minded people to work with right off the bat, you know? So that's kind of what film school's most useful for. So if you feel like you don't have anybody, you're moving to LA and you don't know anybody at all, you know, film school might be a good option for you.

But like I said, there's no, you don't have to. So just [00:54:00] define your goals, you know, know it's a people industry and, and all that entails, and then, uh, just never give up, you know, that those are kind of the most basic, strong advice and, you know, trust your your voice. You know, like that. And the other thing, at least when it comes to cinematography, to be specific, I see this a lot.

Roger Deacons has talked about that. I completely agree with him. He's, he's a master. He's like, he's like, people convince beautiful imagery with great cinematography. You know, know that we are storytellers first and foremost. We're not here just to make cool shots. Now, if you wanna make cool shots, more power to you, you know, but like, we're here to tell a whole story and the journey, the psycho-, you know, capture the visual, psychological journey of the themes and the protagonists and the antagonists and their journeys from beginning to end.

And that's what we're, that's what we do, you know? And everything else that entails, but like just doing a cool shot is not what we do, you know? So know that cinematography, some of the best cinematography is ugly cinematography because that's what the story demanded. And so just free your mind of these concepts that it needs to be like this visual, [00:55:00] you know, beautiful, whatever each and every time.

It doesn't, you know, sometimes you need to be muddy and dirty and gritty. Other times you need to be glossy and sexy and colorful. It's just, it, it's all comes from what's the needs of the story. So, Thank you you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, thanks for having us. Yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you. Andrew Jeric and Matt Hadley. Thanks for joining catch a Break.

Andrew Jeric: Awesome. Well thank you so much, Julie. It was a pleasure for having us.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch a Break Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Andrew Jeric and Matt Hadley. And special thanks to crewvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide.

Please check out our website at catch a break podcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Jocelyn. Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the [00:56:00] scenes.

Next up we talk with the production department, Corey Slov, Miranda Pacheco, and Fiona Wiederman. How do you do your job while sharing a production office with the docu crew that is following you, also with no budget and during a Covid surge? In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.

EP 405: The Locations, Stunts and Transportation Departments

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media @CatchABreakPod, as well as all the podcast places.

The presenting sponsor of Season 4 of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new backlot featuring a New York and LA downtown street with interiors and an alley fully, furnished production office space and suite style executive offices along with post-production space. Dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all their clients. Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any budget, any need. Find them at santaclaritastudios.com.

We are continuing our [00:01:00] Project Greenlight series where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We're dropping new episodes every day, so if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 401. These episodes are not tied to the HBO Max Series episodes in order so you can binge both in no particular order and we just can't be worried about any spoilers. It's all out there. Listen at your own risk.

In this episode, I sat down with location manager, Yvette Yurcisin, stunt coordinator, Dee Bryant, and then later transportation coordinator, Sandra Ninham-Gallardo. These jobs are way more stressful than you might think, and these roles are not typically held by women, but these women came through with flying colors.

Okay, have a listen.

Welcome to Catch a Break. Today I'm here with Yvette Yurcisin and Dee Bryant. Yvette Yurcisin is a location manager who is most known for her work on Justified, Yellowstone, The Dropout, Inception, Private Practice, and Project Greenlight. She's also the writer and director of Telly Award-winning commercial. Welcome, Yvette.

Yvette Yurcisin: Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: Also, we have Dee [00:02:00] Bryant. Born in Los Angeles, Dee was raised in the San Gabriel Valley where she grew up riding motorcycles and street racing in her boyfriend's cars. Dee realized early on that with her A-type personality, she was not cut out to become college material and instead she pursued and completed a three year apprenticeship in the operating engineer's union where she was trained to operate all forms of heavy construction equipment, including cranes and bulldozers.

After spending several years literally drifting heavy construction equipment just to pass the time at work, Dee was eventually introduced to stunt driving for television and film where she's been hired on over a hundred different commercials, television shows and feature films doubling a-list actors such as Angela Bassett, Regina King, and Carrie Washington, while performing difficult vehicle maneuvers such as reverse 180s, t-bone crashes, and high speed chase sequences. As a seasoned stunt driver capable of handling virtually any vehicle proficiently, Dee is in the league of her own, which has earned her the reputation as a top female driver in the film industry. Dee has been fortunate enough to be hired to stunt coordinate several projects, including a $30 million [00:03:00] Nike commercial starring top athletes such as Serena Williams, LeBron James, and Megan Rapino. She's also co-founder of Association of Women Drivers. Welcome, Dee.

Dee Bryant: Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can I just ask you, what does it mean to say you're drifting heavy construction equipment?

Dee Bryant: Well, drifting is when you're breaking traction with the rear wheels and the vehicle, whatever it is, is literally just sliding across the turf.

So, drifting in cars is what you'll see on like Fast and the Furious and, heavy equipment, the one that I was operating, the earth mover, happens to have two engines, one in the front and one in the rear. So I would get behind the water truck and the, the turf was wet, obviously behind the water truck, and just gun the back engine, turn my steering wheel, and it caught, it would create, an entire drift of it, of the rear end of the vehicle.

So literally drifting heavy equipment.

Julie Harris Oliver: Amazing. Okay. And you're joining us from where today?

Dee Bryant: I am in Bogota, Colombia today.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. That's [00:04:00] amazing. I love modern technology, but so if there's any, if there's any funny sound where you are, I know you're coming from a long way away with kind of spotty internet.

Dee Bryant: Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: So we're gonna roll with it.

Dee Bryant: Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Yvette, let's start with you. What was your first job and how did you get it?

Yvette Yurcisin: Well, my first job, I actually applied for, to work for a post house in Philadelphia. I was a salesperson. I, I was working in real estate and I decided that I wanted to work closer to anything to do with film, television, commercials, anything like that.

And there was a post house in Philadelphia that I looked up and I set up a, I wrote a resume, said how perfect I would be for this advertising sales job for post-production, and I FedExed it to the director. I found out who the director was, I FedExed it to him and told him how much he needed to hire me, and they did.

So from there I learned how to, edit all about editing, post-production, and bringing in clients to the post house.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wait, did you know [00:05:00] anything about post-production?

Yvette Yurcisin: Not a thing.

Julie Harris Oliver: You just knew I could sell.

Yvette Yurcisin: I knew I could sell. I was, I had a lot of sales experience in various, in various jobs, but I really wanted to work in film, and so I tried to figure out where could sales and advertising match with film in my area.

And the only, the biggest post house was this shooter's post transfer, they called it. And so I called them and I said, oh, who's the director? And they gave me his name and I hung up. And then I got the address and, and I, and I sent a FedEx in and he called and gave me an interview just because he said that he hadn't had anyone FedEx a resume before to him, to his desk, making it all important.

I was like, well I am important! And so I, I did, I worked there for about a year and a half I wanna say, and brought in several clients, but also was able to, I made a few short films of my own with some of the crew that were there, and they helped me edit my, my contests and things. So I, I learned a lot, but at, at a [00:06:00] certain point, I decided that I was gonna leave after that.

But that was my first real, I guess my, the closest job I can say to being in production at the time.

Julie Harris Oliver: The chutzpah.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's amazing. So, okay, then tell us how you transitioned into location managing from that.

Yvette Yurcisin: From there, from there, I decided that I wanted to move to California and become, you know, really work in the film business. I always wanted to move to California, so I just packed up everything and left. And when I got here, I needed to work. I really didn't have any way to make any money. I was pretty broke.

So I decided to get my California real estate license back to sales. And I was lucky enough to work for RE/MAX and my business partner, my real estate business partner also happened to own a movie ranch.

So I worked as a realtor by day and at night I became a site rep at the movie ranch and closed every set that I could possibly close for about two years. I was on every movie and show that I could work [00:07:00] on. And it was the, my first location manager job was actually on a show called The Unit where the location manager there had taken note of my hard work as a site rep, and the availability list at the union was low, so he said, today's your lucky day. If you want, you can get a job in location. So they hired me as a, an assistant location manager to close sets for that particular show.

It took, it took about two years working both jobs day and night. But I loved it. I was around set. I didn't make a lot of money. I was exhausted, but it did pay off.

Julie Harris Oliver: Amazing. That actually makes total sense to go from real estate to locations. Especially in LA. You would start to know where everything was.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yeah. I didn't wanna be a location manager. I mean, most people don't plan on being location managers. It just kind of happens. It just, it just, it just was a match for me at the time.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's great. Okay. Dee, how about you? What was your first job in the business and how'd you get it?

Dee Bryant: Well, my first job in the business was a music video riding a motorcycle. [00:08:00] I had a mutual friend that was actually already a stunt woman. She knew that I could ride bikes and they needed someone to double Aaliyah, the late singer actress Aaliyah in a music video.

And I did the job, thought it was a lot of fun. Still never thought I could become a stunt woman. I, you know, I didn't aspire to, I just thought it was fun. I made a lot of money that one day and just kind of ignored it. Then I received a call from a guy who said that there were no African American women who could ride a street bike at my level. And so he needed me to double Lisa Bonet in a film called Biker Boys. And so he, Taft-Hartley'd me, put me in Screen Actors Guild, and my phone started blowing up after that just because, I grew up as a tomboy with five brothers and I kind of had a skillset already coming into the business.

I was already a certified scuba diver, licensed sky diver, licensed motorcycle rider, licensed big rig operator. And literally my phone just [00:09:00] rang off the hook. I was just working nonstop from that day forward.

Julie Harris Oliver: You were doing all the things already and then the film business was like, we could use all of them.

Dee Bryant: Yes. Yes.

My brother always says you were actually born a stunt woman, but you had no idea.

Julie Harris Oliver: You didn't know that was a thing.

Dee Bryant: I didn't know was a thing. Ironically, my uncle was a stuntman, so back in the 70s, I remember us, he was a, a cowboy as well. He was a bull rider. So my dad would take us to the rodeos and watch him do his thing on the bulls, and he was the original stunt double for Cornelius in Planet of the Apes because he was a, a cowboy.

He was riding the horses for Cornelius. And so I never thought, you know, it never dawned on me that a, a girl could do this. I, I didn't know that there was such a thing as a stunt woman. So.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I imagine they're not a ton of Black women stunt women.

Dee Bryant: Now there are. When I got in, in 1998, there weren't. There were maybe five working African American stunt women. Now because the film industry has spread [00:10:00] out so much and mostly, you know, all the big, big films are filming in Atlanta, now there are starting to be a lot more Black stunt women.

But, because there weren't a lot of roles, action roles, written for African American women, there really wasn't a need for us in the past. A big, huge, you know, need for African American stunt women. Now, there's so many action roles written for Black women, so many more that there's starting to become more need for us, more of a need for us.

Julie Harris Oliver: Good, good. Now in addition to all the vehicle driving that you do, are you also doing like the physical things without the equipment?

Dee Bryant: Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like, the, I don't even know what. Flying through the air doing acrobatics? Are you doing all that?

Dee Bryant: Not so much anymore because I've been in the business 25 years now and I've paid my dues, so to speak, so I leave the ground pounding to the youngsters. But yes, I, I've done high falls, fire burns, [00:11:00] anything and everything dealing with stunts.

I, in 2013, I started doubling the lead on the show, on the number one Fox series called Sleepy Hollow. And her character did everything from riding a, an actor on the back of a motorcycle to driving a boat to, to sliding Broncos, trucks, vehicles. She did, her character did everything and it kind of, I should say, put me on the map cause everyone realized, oh wow, she's, she's really diverse. She can actually handle all these skills.

And so, yeah, now that I'm considered a veteran in the business, I try to preserve my body. So I turn down jobs. If someone calls me and says, "Hey, do you wanna do a car hit?" I'm like, I'm behind the wheel. Right, sure. But I'm not gonna be in front of the bumper anymore, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Right.

Dee Bryant: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And you're coordinating now.

Dee Bryant: I am. I am coordinating now. It's kind of the natural progression for stunt performers to become stunt coordinators, then second unit directors where [00:12:00] all the action is. And then some of us even go on to become huge directors.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, let's talk about Project Greenlight now. I always imagine like, you get the call to do this job on this movie, and then they tell you also you're gonna be on a reality show.

So, Yvette, how did that hit you and what made you think, oh, okay, that's, that sounds fun. Or did you, or did you think it sounded fun?

Yvette Yurcisin: It did sound fun. And scary at the same time. I think I, I was at a, at a point where I was on hiatus from my other work and it was a great filler. It would've, it was a shorter term project.

I really do support Project Greenlight's mission in the fact that they support young upcoming directors and help them make a movie, which I would've given, you know, my left arm for someone to help me do that back in the day, or probably still would, I'm not sure.

But I was really excited about it and I, and I really didn't think too much or too deep into [00:13:00] the whole aspect of, oh, you're also gonna be on camera. I figured, what for two seconds. And, you know, I'm not the important one. But, you know, it was definitely changed, it changed the day-to-day stuff.

But in, at first, initially, my wanting to do the project was, was to get behind the actual Project Greenlight mission. And also it was a great little filler for work. And I, and I did think it was gonna be fun. I had no idea what I was actually in for, since I, I had never worked on reality before.

Julie Harris Oliver: Was it more than you expected?

Yvette Yurcisin: Much more, yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: I hear people were like mic'd the second they showed up on set.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yes. Yes. I mean, the biggest, the biggest thing was that I didn't, I didn't factor into that I had to specifically care about what I was gonna wear when I was going to work in the morning or that I even washed my hair or I wanted to put on makeup just because, just in case.

And, and then paying attention to everything that you say, even if sometimes things are off the cuff, I like to joke around a lot on set and I was [00:14:00] worried about that being taken out of context cause with the creativity of editing, you can say something and then only part of it shows up. And so if it means something else than what I think it means, so without getting too much in my head, I was stressed out about those kinds of things that took me a lot longer to get ready for work per se, or just made me more self-conscious.

The good news is I became much more in the now and present in the moment as we were filming, which then on the flip side made me enjoy the process and eventually the cameras started to fade away and I started to care less about that stuff.

And, but that's not to say I'm not a little freaked out about how it's gonna turn out.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I would, I would be in so much trouble. I joke off the cuff all the time. And if that were, people hardly get it in the moment, and if it were all taken out of context, I'd be in a lot of trouble. I, I can imagine the stress of that.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yeah. So that's, that was hard and fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hard and fun. And also we'll see.

Yvette Yurcisin: Right. We'll see. Exactly. I'm not telling [00:15:00] anyone I did it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Dee, how about you? How, how was that for you? Was it different cause you're a performer anyway.

Dee Bryant: It, it was, I'm so used to being in front of the camera, it didn't really bother me that the camera was there and a lot of times I was able to block it out. But like Yvette said, I had to be more conscious about my appearance and my censorship because stunt people, stunt performers are kind of known as the bad boys of the film industry. And we once in a while drop an F bomb here and there, you know, when we're talking about stuff.

So I had to censor myself and censor my clothing because I tend to be a bit of, a bit of an activist and I had to watch out that I wasn't wearing shirts that said something like, "my body, my choice," or, you know, just, I had to watch what I wore and watch what I said.

And other than that, it was just another day in front of the camera.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now let's talk about the activist t-shirts for a minute. Was that, like, did you get a list of things not to do, say, or wear, or were you just thinking, let me not stir it up while I'm on [00:16:00] set because I feel like wear the T-shirts!

Dee Bryant: Right. No, we, we were asked not to wear anything with logos, obviously because product placement issues. And, I was just aware of, of not wearing those type of things on set because I don't when I go to regular sets, you know. So you just, you don't wanna be the trouble, looked at or viewed as the trouble starter.

So cause you never know who you're working with, working for, and what their political opinions are. So just more conscious of just being on, on an everyday set.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then how did, having the cameras on you, for both of you, how did it affect how you did your job, but in addition to, you know, how you thought about how you were presenting and things, did it, did it interfere with, or not interfered... how did it affect how you did your job?

Dee Bryant: I, I, I don't think it really affected me much. Like I said, I'm so used to performing in front of, front of the camera anyway, so it didn't really, I just kind of [00:17:00] tuned it out and just did what I needed to do, stayed focused on protecting my actors.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yvette, how about you?

Yvette Yurcisin: I don't feel that it really affected the performance of myself or my team as much as sometimes the fact that I was always mic'd and some of my team members, most of my team members were not, that if I had to address something, it was kind of, I was worried if they were getting half of the story of what I'm asking crew members something to do and we were spread out all over the place, we were running around a lot, and so they would literally chase me around and go, "what are you doing? What are you talking about?" I was like, well, I , I'm just trying to do my job and it, and some of it is not, it's not interesting, especially getting only half of the conversation. It's like, well, we need to move these dumpsters because we're gonna be moving here.

And there's, there is a lot of things going on and there's a lot of work to do. So I couldn't, I didn't wanna stop my work because they wanted to catch a portion. "Well wait till we mic this person and wait," and that's like, no, we don't have time to wait for that. I just need to go and do. So I did learn how [00:18:00] to work with both scenarios and just kind of time it. If I knew I needed to address something really quickly, I would do it before I would get to set. So this way, I wasn't causing them to chase me around all the time.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then what about, cause I imagine if your locations and your planning, like where's everybody, where's everyone gonna be, and where's base camp, and where's the catering, and where's the bathrooms, and that, and it's not just your crew, now it's this whole other reality crew also. Were you responsible for accommodating them as well?

Yvette Yurcisin: Absolutely. That was, that was the biggest challenge of working simultaneously on a reality show and a feature film, is that my crew, it was only one crew, so we didn't, I didn't understand that the duality of the whole picture initially when I first started, and that kind of became very clear that I'm actually, myself and my crew are managing two separate crews with two separate call times, two separate call sheets, two separate movements, in addition to a [00:19:00] very challenging location where the property was very large and they had several other crews also shooting their movies or TV shows, commercials, still shoots all at the same time, and it was a juggle to keep them separated from each other because there was a strict rule contractually speaking.

Our location agreement did not allow us or the reality crew to film any of the other crews at any time. So if you're turning around a corner and you're being followed by the reality TV crew and to go to film our film, but we're passing another crew that's eating lunch or filming, they, it all needed to be avoided. So it was just a constant moving of pieces around every day.

And then if they, if the film, if we decided last minute that we were gonna change a scene, that affected my department and everything that we had pre-planned the day before on the day. And so then we became, we were just running around and [00:20:00] scrambling to try to make that all cohesive and not appear as if it was a difficult thing.

But having two teams or two crews working simultaneously was extremely challenging for my department because it really was only one team working with two different teams and then also factoring in the third. So that, that was very challenging.

Julie Harris Oliver: And can you describe the location for us? Cause a lot of people have talked about how kind of all the shooting was done on this one campus, but it sounds like you were able to do a lot of different locations on that same campus. Can you describe it?

Yvette Yurcisin: Sure. The campus that we chose for filming, the, the feature is wonderful. It's, it has over a hundred out buildings. I think maybe 120. And the, the property, it's huge. It used to be an old hospital treatment center, if you will, back in the day. It's closed down. It's been, been vacant and abandoned for quite some time now, and they allow filming there.

So this, this does allow for, because the size of the property is so large, [00:21:00] there are so many different looks that you can achieve there. And because we were so budget conscious, it was, it lent itself for a lot of diversity, you know, within the location itself to create all these different looks to support what was going on in this feature film.

So it really was a perfect location for this film and many others, but it just, it was unique in that sense. But it was, it's large. I mean, I'm not sure what the acreage is there now off the top of my head, but it is, talking about open fields, and swing sets, and roads, and hospital and administrative buildings, and schools all on property.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, so many moving parts.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yes, you might say.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Hey Dee, can you describe what kind of stunts there were in this show?

Dee Bryant: There was a lot of foot chases in this show. A lot of running, falling, struggling. There was one, I think the biggest stunt where, was when one of my stunt doubles or the actor's character had [00:22:00] to fall down like a 20 foot, maybe 15 foot embankment. He had to roll down it. He, he was shot and then fell, rolled down embankment, and it was the inside of an old reservoir. So it was concrete, you know, a concrete surface, a rough concrete surface. So we had to make that happen and make it look violent as if he died without hurting anyone.

Julie Harris Oliver: How, how, how do you do that?

Dee Bryant: Well, thanks to the art department, they were brilliant. They actually took my stunt pads and which are like a, maybe a four inch thick pad, and they covered the top of them with a surface that matched the concrete. So it looked as if he were rolling down and landing on concrete when he was, the stunt double was actually landing on the pad.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, smart. Was that their idea or your idea?

Dee Bryant: Both. Actually it was, I approached them with the idea. Yeah. She was already, we were already thinking on the same lines. So when I approached her with it, she already knew that I, [00:23:00] you know, that was coming and she had already prepared to create this surface for me to put on my pad.

So it was a team effort for sure.

Julie Harris Oliver: Interesting.

Dee Bryant: Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now what... I kinda wanna ask two questions.

Dee Bryant: Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like, what was the biggest challenge in the making of the film and for each of you in your different departments? And then do you think that's gonna end up in the show?

Dee Bryant: For me, my biggest challenge was finding stunt doubles for the actors that were a match who were vaccinated.

I mean, literally I had three perfect stunt doubles that were a perfect match for my lead, and all three of them were not vaccinated, so I couldn't hire them. So I ended up going with another stunt double who wasn't a great match, but body-wise she was, but not, visually she didn't look like my, my, my actress. And sometimes we wanna go with someone who, if the cameras pans them, they can actually pass for that actress.

For example, when I'm doubling Regina King, the camera's are always in my face cause they think I look just like Regina or, you know, they could get [00:24:00] closer. It doesn't have to be a wide shot. So that was my biggest challenge.

Julie Harris Oliver: That, that, that's an interesting challenge that I didn't expect to hear.

Dee Bryant: Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you, Yvette?

Yvette Yurcisin: As far as a challenging moment or challenging task, I guess if you will, that I, that I was faced with on this particular project is that we, we needed to have a, and this was with you Dee too, the stunts, where we had to have a bus drive down a main street and hit a main character. And then, I don't wanna give away anything, but basically a bus hits a guy on the street.

And all of the locations that I found within the location, which the director really wanted something more, a little different looking, which I was able to find outside of the property, which then requires, me to apply for a permit. It requires me to have the assistance of police and posting and to close the road. It's a pretty busy road. And I did follow the protocol and put the application in on time and did everything, and then I received the [00:25:00] denial that the permit wasn't going to be accepted or approved because at the same time, there was a big county fair going on that they had moved to the area and because of the pandemic, they didn't have it for two years.

So now we're, we have this huge fair and all of the police in this town are being, attending to this fair and you just will not have the support available, so we're denying it. And that just didn't really fly with me because they didn't mention that on their website in the application process that, except for these dates, you know, everything's great except for if you really wanna film anything on these dates, you can't have the permit.

So since they didn't disclose that, I found a loophole in that they would have to revisit and then kind of make up for, how come I didn't, I wasn't aware of this because then I wouldn't have promised this great location. And so I went down to the city myself and spoke with a lot of people over several days, and finally they had to go back and then reapprove the permit, [00:26:00] which was only two days or a day before we were actually supposed to shoot it.

So I made sure the director had the plan B, that she was okay with the plan B because we had to have a plan B. I knew cause plan A was not gonna, I felt like I was gonna get it, then I didn't, then I did, then I didn't.

And, anyway, it turned out that we were able to, to get the permit. Some two officers showed up and did a wonderful job in holding back the traffic and we got the scene and we were really grateful to the police that day for showing up. We fed them really well and appreciated their help and we were able to get it done. So it was, it was kind of right up to the wire, but I really do think where we shot it and how we shot it and Dee can attest to this, that it really will add to the film and it will be shown.

That part will probably, I don't know how much of the drama of not getting the permit, but I did talk about it on the show. So I do think,

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I'm so stressed out just hearing about it. Like, I love the in production you just can't take no for an answer. And you're gonna make that happen. [00:27:00] I'm, I'm thinking, , do you bring, do you bring cops from LA? Do you bring them from some, you know? Would they let you do that?

Yvette Yurcisin: Yes, I did suggest that they pull in CHP from another district or nearby territory, and they weren't having that either, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wow. You made it happen. Incredible.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yeah. That was fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: Dee, what was your perspective on that whole stunt?

Dee Bryant: I just thought Yvette was amazing because I can't even imagine being in her position and, and the stress that created. And I could feel the tension, you know, like the last minute things that were happening on this, on this project were just, everybody was a little bit under the gun.

So, but it, like I said, again, it was a team effort and, and she made it happen and we all made it happen, and it turned out amazing. I'm excited to see the finished product.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you shoot this at night?

Dee Bryant: No, that note was a day shot.

Julie Harris Oliver: That was a day shot. Okay. Cause I was like, add, add to it.

Dee Bryant: Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then how do you handle someone being hit by a bus? Like how do you, how do you do that stunt?

Dee Bryant: Well, it actually is shot in reverse, so what we would do was put the stunt performer in on the [00:28:00] bumper of the vehicle to make it look like they were hit and then shoot it in reverse. Have the vehicle back up.

So then the, the other part, part of it obviously, is shot in sections. The other part of it would be to have that person in front of the bumper and then snatched away on a ratchet so that it looks like they were hit. So it's, it's.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I feel like you're giving us movie magic.

Dee Bryant: It is, it is definitely movie magic, so yeah. We're not hitting anyone with a bus.

Julie Harris Oliver: I, I mean, I was gonna say. It doesn't matter how in shape you are.

Dee Bryant: No. We're not getting hit by a bus.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, that is very cool.

What were some, and Dee you'll have to tell me if this affected you or not, but I know it was such a compressed schedule and so many night shoots in a very short prep, in a very low budget.

Was there anything that, that either one of you kind of pulled out of your hat that made things more efficient or that you had to do because of all of those constricting details that, that maybe you wouldn't have done in a bigger budget thing?

Dee Bryant: Yeah, kind [00:29:00] of ask for favors from stunt performers that are, are actually friends and are willing to work under those circumstances. You know, work at night, drive two hours. A lot of them drove two hours to the location because it was the furthest east area of LA County, and a lot of the stunt performers live in the San Fernando Valley.

So just, you know, basically depending on your little black book for people who are willing to come out and work nights for long hours. And, yeah, just putting those things in order before the production is actually in, on camera, before we go to camera.

But when I first got the script, I already had in mind who I was gonna call for the stunt doubles and had several backups in case someone wasn't available or someone wasn't vaccinated. So just, preparing in advance helped.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, and the relationships are so important.

Dee Bryant: Absolutely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's talk more about that in a minute.

Yvette, did you have a, a response to that question?

Yvette Yurcisin: Yes, [00:30:00] absolutely. I think that working with a low budget feature film that has a majority of night shooting is not right up there on the list, on the high list of, let me do this, like I wanna work with you and, and then put them on camera too.

Julie Harris Oliver: Not ideal.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yeah. It was basically finding, finding a crew or people that would be willing to do that at a lower rate. And again, it's like Dee said, calling in favors and saying, well, if you do this with me, I'll take you on the next one if you do a good job. And, and really getting them to also make the commute driving.

The biggest challenge, well a help I guess in it is at the property itself is a great filming location. The people that run the property were able to work with me on a budget. So I, I had started off where I had a, a specific budget as, as if I were bringing a show to the property, a standard rate card pricing.

And then after putting all the elements together, went back and renegotiated [00:31:00] the deal for the Project Greenlight process. And they, they do offer discount for film, student film making and stuff. This location works well with those kinds of projects as well. Not only do they, do they have large projects come there, but then also smaller ones.

But really it, it was a challenge because they can make full rate because the location is really popular. So it was getting in and booking my dates as fast as possible and locking it in and committing to a certain price. They worked with me. I was able to go back and negotiate it down to a point where we were able to get more quality and more locations within the budget that we had.

Working around the clock, that was extremely challenging. I fixed that by, by adding, adding another crew member and splitting their shifts, so that way we would work in shifts to have full coverage at all times. And then I would always, I was always on call regardless of whether I was there or not. And, so essentially when my crew's working, I'm always working. [00:32:00]

But it was such a, important for me because we were prepping at 7:00 AM but not shooting till 7:00 PM. And then shooting all the way till 7:00 AM. So it was 24 hour chair for the location for the site reps that represented the property. And then my department, I always needed to have someone from my department on set, on location, whether or not, whether we were shooting or not, as soon as there was one person that stepped foot on the property, I had to also have representation.

And to save money, we also moved our production offices to the location, which was really challenging. It was great. It was better for the production in a lot of ways cause production could be right there, but the buildings were old, they needed a lot of cleaning, they needed a lot of care. There was just, it was, also having people show up per production office at 7:00 AM or 6:30 when we weren't shooting till the evening, but they're working. So that was, the greatest challenge in this kind of a project that is very different [00:33:00] from your normal production, whether it's feature film or commercial or television.

Julie Harris Oliver: I've heard a lot about how, you know, people call in favors for this kind of a job and, and for this kind of a budget and it just makes me wonder, like, how, what's the, I know there isn't one, but what's the kind of, the calculation of the formula of I'll bring you on x big budget things and then I'm gonna call in three or four tiny show favors. Like there's gotta be some balance there. You can never predict it. So kind of how does that, how does that work?

Dee Bryant: I think that it's like you said, it's a relationship thing. So like the stunt performers that I used, I've hired before in big budget, bigger budget productions and projects. So it's a trust thing. Like they know that I have hired them before on, on regular budget shows or bigger budget shows, and I did say, I'll take care of you on the next one. And they know that I'm, I'm gonna keep my word. I'm not just, you know, it's not just small talk because they're not just coworkers, they're [00:34:00] actually friends of mine.

So the stunt community is very tight knit because we never know when one of us may get hurt or may not be here or, you know, knock on wood. But so we're, we're like family. And it's just a trust thing that you build and it's a relationship that you just, you have to depend on, have to depend on one another to keep each other safe and to, you know, just trust each other in general.

Julie Harris Oliver: And you just know it evens out at the end.

Dee Bryant: Oh, for sure.

Julie Harris Oliver: Somehow.

Dee Bryant: For sure. Always does.

And then fast forward, like the people that I'm hiring now, fast forward 10 years from now, they may hire me back because that natural progression will, where they will become stunt coordinators and they'll pay it backward. I always say pay it backward, pay it forward, and pay it backward.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hey, you know what's really funny, talk to you is every now and then, like we hear a motorcycle, like go by in the background and I'm like, that's perfect. Like the perfect soundtrack for when you're talking

Dee Bryant: Funny.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Yvette, what about your, your calculation with the [00:35:00] favors?

Yvette Yurcisin: You know, I, I agree with Dee wholeheartedly that I've definitely developed a, a family atmosphere or trust with several other location managers that I've worked with in times past. Whether or not I've worked for them, with them, or they've pulled me in on a project, or, and vice versa in my community and location managers, there's a, there's a lot of people coming in that are new into it that are, that are only passing through, that are moving on to producing and directing. They're all, as I said, a lot of people don't really sign up to become location managers. They fall in for one reason or another. So it's very much about a journey and how, there's so many aspects to being a location manager that you have to, skills that you can apply or learn that are, you can apply in other positions as well, not only in the film business, but also in life.

So I like to treat people as if they are just respected for the work that they come in. And I, I think the biggest, the biggest thing is I take a lot of [00:36:00] pleasure in giving someone work and, and seeing that they're able to feed their family and that they're, and they're, that this may not be the most fun experience that you have, but if you really love it and you have a good attitude, it's going to pay off in the end. And so I always will hire someone again if the experience with them is great, or if they're, they have a really good attitude and they really...

I think if you have a, a desire to work and you love the film industry, whether the project is large or small is, is less significant in a lot of ways than as in the project itself, if that makes any sense.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Yvette Yurcisin: So I don't have any problem hiring people. It's just they do ask though, you know, "what's the budget? How long is it? Where's it gonna be? Where am I gonna drive to?" And all those things do factor in, but they're, luckily we have a good pool of people available on the roster to call if some of my friends are not available. I have been able to crew up pretty quickly in most cases, whether it's large or small projects, just cause I help you, you help [00:37:00] me.

It's that kind of give and take and, and Dee's right, you don't know that the person that you've just hired isn't actually the major director down the road, production designer, whoever that, that may be calling you to say, "Hey, you were fun. It was great. You made it happen." and at the end of the day, we work so hard and long and a smile and a good attitude and it goes a long way.

Julie Harris Oliver: For sure. Now, I wanna ask both of you, I imagine you've, well, tell me if I'm wrong, I imagine it was not easy early in your careers getting where you are, knowing how difficult it has been for women and people of color in this business at all. So I'm wondering how is it now and is it getting better and are you seeing progress and now you're both at the top of your game and what did it take to get there?

Dee Bryant: Well, I am, to be honest with you, it's still for, as a, as far as a stunt coordinator, the doors still are not open to women in general, women of [00:38:00] color especially, but just women in general.

It's still a, you know, still the boys club, good old boys club. So it's still tough to become a stunt coordinator. As far as the stunt performer, like I said, there's so much more action written for women of color that it's a lot easier for women to become stunt performers, Black women to become stunt performers.

So as long as they have a certain skillset set that's needed, mostly gymnastics or martial arts is the start to get your foot in the door as a stunt performer. And, people are constantly, constantly looking for those skills for women that are different sizes, heights, weights. So it's, the doors are open for any woman who wants to aspire to become a stunt performer.

But as far as becoming a stunt coordinator, it really is about relationships and getting to know the, the executive producers or, or, you know, just knowing people that are in the higher ranks that will trust you [00:39:00] to coordinate their films or, or their projects.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then how do you see now, your role, having gotten there to mentor and help and, and be a model, do you, do you feel that responsibility?

Dee Bryant: Absolutely. Absolutely. I, I mean, I'm at the point in my career, after doing this for 25 years, that literally I think five years from now I'm going to become retired. I'm gonna be, that's my goal, to, to be retired.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now you're just bragging.

Dee Bryant: No. No, but, but it's funny because I feel like I, I cannot retire, even if five years comes and I'm at the age of retirement, I can't retire unless I literally have someone or several women to fill my shoes because it's, no one else is gonna help us.

And another woman was the one that helped me. And, and Jessica Harbeck, she, she's an amazing stunt coordinator, second unit director, who kept handing me jobs. Mind you, she's blonde hair, blue eyes, but she kept saying, "Dee, it's not right I'm being given these jobs that should be yours. You have way more [00:40:00] experience in this business. You're, you're just not given the opportunities."

So she always has a saying where, cracks me up, she says, "I was just at the white place at the white time," and so, so she'll be handed a job coordinating a, a TV show with an all black cast, and she's like, why isn't Dee being given this opportunity? So she'll pass me the job, literally. And, just people like that. It's relationships, you know, people that that see and that are just more conscious of, you know, what's going on in our business, the blatant disregard for, for inclusion. So we just need more Jess Harbeck's in our world.

And I feel like out of responsibility, I have to become her and give that opportunity to the next generation of stunt performers.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you have to be real focused on succession planning.

Dee Bryant: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you, Yvette?

Yvette Yurcisin: I think today after, oh, I've been in the business for 15 years, but I started my journey about 20 years ago. I [00:41:00] think that compared to when I first started to now, it's far easier for, in my department at least, for being a female location manager. There are several successful location managers. It's still, you're still dealing with all types of personalities, regardless of male or female, I think, egos and whatnot. And you, you're, my ability to navigate with all people and just be confident in myself, I think that is the biggest key, and I've always looked at it that way and I was never willing to early, early on in the career when there were times when I felt I was not being listened to just because I'm a female or they didn't wanna hire me because I wasn't the loudest voice in the room, trained me to, to give myself a voice.

I feel like I was missing a voice for a really long time. And the more that that pushback, the more that I refused to deal with that, and so the louder that I became, or maybe the more, specific I became in, in when I, when I [00:42:00] spoke. But it was definitely certain people along the line, along the way that did believe in me. And that's partially because of the confidence that I had in myself.

And then gender aside, I just didn't, didn't factor in that that was a factor. If they tried to make it a factor, I didn't believe in that because I just, I just, that was their problem, in my opinion, right. Cause, cause we can do everything you can do, only better, as Annie Get Your Gun, I was in that play. So, but it is easier because there are, many more opportunities and it's not so much, when I'm challenged that way, I really get surprised nowadays and it still happens, but that's more about ego than anything else. And that's rampant wherever you go, not just in this industry, but in life, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, well we will keep pushing on, pushing on.

Now to kind of change the subject, I've heard from a lot of people as you're coming up in this business, it's so important to, as you're managing your finances, being freelance and you never know when the work is coming, a lot of [00:43:00] people start side businesses, whether they're related or not.

So I wanted to talk to both of you about that. I know, Yvette, you had the location cleaning business. Can you talk about that and how you started it and how that kind of supplements, or complements, or helps?

Yvette Yurcisin: Yes. Years ago, over, over 10 years ago, I had started a cleaning service out of just necessity because there really wasn't a lot of companies out there that were willing to run out and clean up a set prior to a shooting and afterwards of, you know, debris from various things that were going on at the time. I mean, sometimes it was, it was a lawn and we needed to clean up for the dogs, or there was an abandoned house that had been infested at one point in time and, you know, needed to be cleaned. It's just not the most glorious of work.

So I started the business giving, helping out, for my own job just to give someone the work. But it was, at the time, it was just wasn't, there wasn't a lot of money in it. It was just like, here, I'll give you, just throw you the side cash, go do it. And [00:44:00] figured out quickly that it was, it could be, it's very helpful. It made us, our sets look right for production to show up, but then also to leave.

And eventually, I started the company, but then my ex took it over. So he was out of work and I needed, he needed work and I needed someone to run that business because I couldn't run that business and location manage at the same time. It was, it becomes a conflict of interest. It's, it's a lot. So he took over and he, to this day, has a very successful cleaning service because of it.

But it was born out of complete necessity. And I love, I love that I could give him that kind of work. And, and so I hire his company, the company when I can.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you see a need and a gap and fill it.

Yvette Yurcisin: That's right.

Julie Harris Oliver: Really smart. Dee, how about you? Any side business?

Dee Bryant: Well, the funny thing is I mentioned that I, I was a heavy equipment operator before I got into stunts. I actually never let that go. So when stunts is slow, stunt [00:45:00] work is slow, I go back and I operate a crane because the main reason is Screen Actors Guild insurance is awful. Their health insurance.

Julie Harris Oliver: Really?

Dee Bryant: So yeah, so to keep my health insurance with my other union, I just go back and work 200 hours every quarter. And it keeps my insurance with my operating and engineer's union. Keeps it current. So, and because

Julie Harris Oliver: Like in construction?

Dee Bryant: Yes, yes. Believe it or not. I know. Who knew, right?

So, the union that I belong to in construction, Local 12, is one of the strongest unions in, probably in the country. And it has great, like I said, it has great insurance, it has great benefits, but of course it doesn't pay as well as stunt work. But it's fun because now when I go back to do my 200 hours, I don't feel like it's work. It's just fun. I'm like, mostly I'm, I'm just doing crane work and I'm just swinging the hook at guys, you know, playing around with them.

So, the last big truck project I did was the Rams [00:46:00] Stadium, the new Rams football stadium in Inglewood. But it's, it was kind of cool because a friend of mine got some footage of me operating the biggest crane, and I was the smallest, probably the smallest operator and construction worker on that project, operating the biggest crane, and he's following me with the crane. I'm moving it to set some roof panels, and you can see the entire stadium in the background.

That was pretty, that's pretty cool. Something to show my grandkids.

Julie Harris Oliver: That is so cool. Is that something that you can just day play? Can you say, oh, I'm free Thursday. Can I go operate a crane?

Dee Bryant: Yes, yes. I just call the dispatcher and tell 'em, "Hey, I'm available for a couple days and put me to work."

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, that's amazing and surprising.

Dee Bryant: Yeah. So it's, it's fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yvette, did you have something else to jump in?

Yvette Yurcisin: Yeah, I, I just wanted to say, cause I didn't mention, but I'm still a realtor in California, so, when I'm not, when I'm not on a film, as I am in between shows right at the moment, I actually am, I have a listing and so I, I just pop in and I have, I have established myself in Ventura [00:47:00] as a, as a realtor, also in Santa Clarita, but more so now lately, Ventura, and I will actively still sell real estate rent for people or give their listings or bring buyers occasionally, people that I've worked with over the years.

I was a realtor in New York. I was a realtor in New Jersey. And now, in California. So it's always been something that I, the license that I've always kept up, just because once you get it, you don't wanna lose it. It doesn't offer me any benefits. It's just fun to take people through a house and see them light up when it's a, the dream house for them and, and so.

Very similar to locations when I go "Look at this location, it's amazing. You're gonna love it!" And they're like, "We do!" So that business is, is, because you, I think you need, it's healthy, like Dee said too, to, to keep your mind fresh and keep you going by having other things. It's, it's, I don't need to do it, but I love to do it and it's something that is just part of my life and probably always will be.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's great. So keep your licenses up, diversify your [00:48:00] income streams, do the things that bring you joy, all of it.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yep.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So what was your favorite memory of Gray Matter and Project Greenlight?

Dee Bryant: I would say my favorite memory is talking to Mia, Mia Isaac, who was our number one. She was the lead. Talking to her, she and her mom, cause Mia is so, so amazingly talented. I kept thinking this, this little girl's gonna blow up. So I'm talking to her mom and I, I just asked, I said, "so what projects does she have up, up and coming after this?" And she said, she couldn't say the name, but she said, "yeah, we're going, her next project, she's, it's taking her to four different countries."

She was going to Jamaica, to Wales, back to California, then to another location. And I just kind of remember her, you know, talking about that. Fast forward, I was hired on a show in Jamaica called Black Cake, and it's a Harpo Productions on Oprah Winfrey show on Hulu, and Mia is the lead. So we ended up [00:49:00] working in Jamaica together for five weeks.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, fun.

Dee Bryant: And I had no idea when her mom was telling me about her next project, I had no idea I was going to be hired on that project. So it was, that was an amazing memory for me, just knowing that I worked with her back to back on her two, you know, latest projects and I know she's going to be huge. She's so talented. So that was, that was pretty cool.

Julie Harris Oliver: Right. And it's a small, small world.

Dee Bryant: Small world.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you, Yvette?

Yvette Yurcisin: My favorite part of coming away from this experience was the camaraderie and the working together of so many different backgrounds. So many, the diversity of the crew for everyone coming together from vast experience under their belt to brand new, you know, lack of experience for a better word, or just kind of deer in the headlights. Oh my God, here I am. And just watching

Julie Harris Oliver: Early career.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yes. And, and watching, watching the actors also blossom, watching the location turn in [00:50:00] to the set without a lot of funding behind it. And seeing the creativity of the art department, the production designer, putting together sets that, in, in budget, which to me was just like, how's this ever gonna, how are we gonna do a film like this with this little bit of money? And, and watching,

Julie Harris Oliver: That's a miracle every time.

Yvette Yurcisin: Every time. But when they're, when you know anything can be solved if you throw a lot of money at it, it's really creative when you don't have any. And now how are you gonna do this? And, and everybody putting their minds together and going, okay, well there is a way, and you find a way, and you make it happen. And watching that kind of come to fruition in front of your eyes, even though you're kind of tired and a walking zombie, you still appreciate, appreciate everyone's effort and everybody pulling together, and, and, and for one, one specific cause .

I think my favorite part was just seeing the people accomplishing, moving up in the business when they took a new position just for this particular role, and seeing them [00:51:00] be really proud of themselves and the, the, you know, just the job well done when it all came together at the end, I think made me feel like I was a part of something special.

A lot of times when you work on a film or a TV series, when it all ends, you do sometimes have a wrap party, but it's not the same kind of moment that, look, we were in the trenches together. Even though you are in the trenches with every film in a sort, sort of sense, it just isn't something that's talked about maybe at the end because you're doing your job, that's what you do.

So it was special in that way and, and I think that I'll see a lot of these other, a lot of those folks I work with again in different roles like Dee. And it's always fun when that happens cause it's a small world at the end of the day.

But it's, it was fun. It was fun for that, you know, for that reason. A lot of reasons, but that was one of my favorite.

Julie Harris Oliver: Love it. Okay. Well that brings us to our martini shot, which is our last question of the podcast. What advice would you have for people who are trying to get in to do what you do? How would you [00:52:00] advise them?

Dee Bryant: I would tell anyone who's trying to become a stunt performer because once again, the natural progression of stunt performer to stunt coordinator, train, train, train. I mean, literally, I tried to put a new feather in my cap still, 24 years later, I still tried to learn a new skillset.

When I was in Jamaica for five weeks, I actually upgraded my diving skills from an advanced scuba diver to a rescue scuba diver just because I had so much idle time there. Just all I can say is train, train, train, and try to learn to do anything and everything that you're capable of.

And forging relationships are important. Like for Project Greenlight, I save a call sheet and I have everyone's names in my phone book because I feel like I have lifelong relationships.

Like I, I, I'm not in the position to hire Yvette, but if someone, I happen, happen to be in a conversation and someone says, "Hey, do you happen to know a female locations manager?" Yvette's the first person [00:53:00] that's gonna pop to, you know, pop in my mind. So I, I just think relationships and training are everything to become a stunt coordinator.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great. Yvette.

Yvette Yurcisin: I would say, I'm not sure who signs up to be a location manager like I said in the beginning. However,

Julie Harris Oliver: You never know. Someone might be home dreaming right now. That's all I wanna do is be a location manager.

Yvette Yurcisin: Yeah. What is that exactly that you do?

Well, but I mean, in a nutshell, I think that basically location managing is very similar to event planning. Look, we're going to a place, we're gonna have a huge party, there's gonna be about 100-500 people and you gotta make sure that we can be there. You gotta find a place for everyone to park. You gotta make sure that we can have permission and permits and bathrooms and tents and feeding. You gotta you, you worry about, you're not worrying about it all, but you're responsible for all of it. So if you love event planning, you'll most likely love location managing.

On the other side [00:54:00] of it, creatively speaking, if you love, or, and or good at photography, I mean obviously a location manager without the knowledge of a camera or, and nowadays you have cell phones and stuff, so it's pretty easy, but a love of photography and knowing your area that you live in so that you can, you can find it or being resourceful. Obviously computer skills are a must. And like Dee said, keeping up with technology as it moves. Drone shots. Drone, I, I still can't fly a drone, but I can hire someone who can.

And there are skills even today as they're moving so fast that I'm still trying to keep up with. But again, we can hire, as in my position as a location manager, I hire other location managers that carry a skillset that may be better than mine or are, you know, more extensive.

Being a people person is so important as, for a location manager. If you can't communicate clearly with crew and or residents or police or any, any person [00:55:00] on set or before you get to set, it's crucial to this position for you, in order for you to be successful because you have to be able to negotiate rates, you have to be able to negotiate hours. Someone might be having a birthday party next door while we're filming and what do you do then? I've had to move birthday parties, pay for them to take it somewhere else and, you know, they're pretty happy about that.

But definitely humility. I think that's one of the most important ingredients in, as a location manager, cause we're not always the, the ones that stand up and get the awards when it's all said and done. You have to be able to understand your role and how important it is to the making of any project. You need a place to do it, and you're that point person, you're that first line of creativity.

So you can imagine if a, if a location is listed in a script, it's up to you to go find some options. So you are the first line of, this is what it's going to look like. [00:56:00] And you give them some options and they pick, and then, then the work begins in the, so it's all in the prep just like event planning is. If you don't plan right for your wedding, there could be some disasters when you show up. And, and being able to handle them as they show up once you're there.

But it is a good idea to, your location manager that doesn't look like they're doing anything on set has actually done their job because it's all, it's all already happened. And they're just...

Julie Harris Oliver: if you don't notice.

Dee Bryant: If you don't notice, you're just like, you know, all those, all they do is sit around and they just walk around and they don't do anything. Well, everything should be done.

Julie Harris Oliver: Job well done.

Dee Bryant: Yes, it's exactly right. That's when we're to be plotted, I guess. But, but in, but there's, there's still work to, to have to do on set in a nutshell.

I think we handle it all, you know, for, on a location and if you really wanna catch a break, no pun intended, find a way to be around it like I did, like a lot of people do. There are endless things you can do on a production. I really cannot think of any career that in some [00:57:00] way isn't relevant to a job on set, that you can't find a way in to be there.

And when you're there, magic happens. Cause where there's a will, there's a way. And it doesn't matter what your passion is, if if you wanna be around film, there's, there's a job there for you somewhere.

Julie Harris Oliver: Amen.

Well, thank you both so much for being here. Yvette Yurcisin and Dee Bryant, thank you so much for being on Catch A Break.

Dee Bryant: Thank you for having us, Julie.

Yvette Yurcisin: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, so now I got to sit down with Sandra Ninham Gallardo, who's a transportation coordinator, and her credits include Fatal Attraction, Gray Matter, Quantum Leap, Made For Love, Kenan, 68 Whiskey, Real Women Have Curves, Dirty Lies, and Lauren, just to name a few.

And you're gonna wanna hear her entire origin story. And lucky for us, we interviewed her on episode 305 of this very podcast. You can go to the website, catchabreakpodcast, or you can find it on your podcast [00:58:00] places. It's episode 305 to hear the whole story for Sandra. But in the meantime, we just wanna talk about Gray Matter and what it was like to be a transport coordinator on that film.

First of all, are you still one of two women transport coordinators in this business?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: Yes I am.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Everybody, get into transportation. We need to increase the ranks.

Tell me what it was like for you. We know this was a film inside of a reality show, so what was it like for you to do your job while having a camera in your face and having a mic on? How did that affect how you do what you do?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: You know what? Really to have the field crew with us and have the docu side on the same side, it was just rewarding, you know, to see how the docu part was trying to record and, and show the beauty of the filmmaking. So it, it wasn't just, you know, like, they were intruding our side. It was just amazing to see [00:59:00] them to come before time and trying to capture everything that the other side of the film crew were doing. So it was amazing. It was an amazing experience.

Julie Harris Oliver: Also, sounds like you welcomed it, like yes! Show how we do this! Was it like that?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: Exactly, because, you know, people doesn't realize what is going into it, you know, from the whole production side. It's just a lot, you know, grips and electric and everybody's providing one little thing to make all this piece become beautiful.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then how did you have to factor in the docu-follow crew's needs and their transpo needs and their parking needs and their, how did you manage that? Or did you have to think about it?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: So, you know, this became on the prep time when, in the earliest stages of prepping to combine the needs through every single department. So even we have similar needs, everybody has a different time. [01:00:00] So we prep for the film crew in a different way, but in the same time we prep, we prep for the docu crew because they have lot needs too, so we have to understand what is into it in, in every single department so we can combine everybody together. Even we didn't share the equipment, but we have to provide every single piece so everybody can conclude their task.

Julie Harris Oliver: So they didn't have their own transportation coordinator. You had overview of the whole thing?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: Yes, I was the coordinator for both, for the film crew and for the docu side of the documentary. Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then let's talk a little bit about that location. We've heard a lot about it. Was this one contained campus that had all the different locations on it? How did that affect your transportation crew?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: You know, it was not a bad situation because everything was in one site. The only challenging side was, you know, let [01:01:00] the docu crew do their work too, because we have to share everything with them: locations.

And it didn't affect a lot on us that wasn't the same place because we could, we could move around everywhere with our drivers. I have an amazing team. Everybody just so wonderful and they have great experience.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then what about things like, cause I know you were pretty far out of town, but it sounded like if people weren't spending the night near location, they were going back home to Los Angeles, but you were shooting nights. So if you had things that needed to be picked up or runs that needed to happen in Los Angeles, how did you, how did you manage that with that kind of wacky schedule?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: So I have to schedule different shifts for the drivers so we can have somebody during the early hours to go and do pickup. Because you know, as the vendor, they don't have the schedule for shooting nights like [01:02:00] us. They don't open in the nighttime.

So we have to schedule different shifts so we can be be covered at the whole times and try to accomplish every single run for every, every department and too, that doesn't affect us during our schedule in the nighttime. So we have to do a little job in there so we can have everybody on time.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what kind of hours did you end up working? Were you working around the clock? Did you work days? Did you work nights? How did you manage it all as the person in charge of all those people?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: I think I was a little vampire sometimes.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you say Vampire?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: Yes, because you live the vampire life, you know when you work nights. So you are working in the nighttime and you work a little bit, in the nighttime when you work nighttime, so you become a little vampire.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. You're just running on caffeine.

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: Just running on the Starbucks.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yes, running on the Starbucks. And then how did you manage and maybe this ties into [01:03:00] how you answered about the scheduling, but keeping everyone's safety in mind. You know, it's so, so important as people are sleep deprived and driving weird hours and, and asleep and awake all around the clock. How did you manage their safety?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: You know, the safety of my department is my number one priority. So I make sure that everyone has their proper turnaround and the production offer hotels accommodations as necessary to ensure that the crew has resting time. So, yes, number one is the safety of everybody and ,you know, as my driver drive everybody around on the shuttle, they have to get their eight hours turned around no matter what.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, great. What advice would you have for people who wanna work in the transportation department, women who wanna work in the transportation department, what advice would you give them? How to do it.

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: So you have to get involved and make up your mind and try to learn every piece of equipment because that's the key. [01:04:00] You need to know, you know, like a 10 tone, how long it is, what it holds, how many pounds. And that will be, you know, the key. Trying to know first what pieces of equipment are, the length, the size. You have to love it. You like cars, if you like picture cars, because that involve everything on transportation.

Since, starting from shuttle van, you know, how many people, if you wanna go on a specific location, how big is the location? If your shuttle van can go through, if you would need a minivan. So that will be my recommendation for somebody who wanna to be in the transport department. Trying to know first the equipment, you know, Google it, see it. That's the first thing that you can do now, you know, with computers and everything and Google, we can look everything and see everything. So that would be my advice.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then how, knowing it's a union position, if someone is [01:05:00] not in the union, how do they work toward getting in and getting that first job.

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: So yes, that's a hard thing sometimes to do it. But, if you work in a no union show and the show turns union, you get your 30 days. Straight 30 days. That's a quicker way if you work 30 days straight. Every single day counts, so everybody need 30 days to join the union and required to have a class A drivers license.

But you can get your driver license after your 30 days. But if you really wanna do this, get your driver license first so you don't have no holding back. That's the key. Get your driver license A. The whole nine yards, and that's the easy way. But you have to start in a non-union show that flip union.

Or this is the other way, when the union opens their books to, they hire permits. [01:06:00] So in the last couple years, we've been on permits every single month and a lot of people join the union and it's been great. So it is two ways to get into union.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Let's talk about that for a minute. The permit process. So that is like when production's really busy and everybody has hired everybody who's on the roster, everybody who's in the union, then you need more people. You've run outta people in the union. That's your opportunity where you can come in and get some days. Is that right?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: Yes. That that's the opportunity. Yes. And you know, if you really wanna do it, you know, you can call the Union Hall, the 399 Union Hall, and they let you, they, they have a message, you know, the books are open, register in the call board. That will be key to, to, like, you can get into it. Or if you know somebody is a, a driver, you know anybody on the transport department and they know your name, they call you. You know, I call [01:07:00] people that say, "Hey, Sandra, when it's an opportunity, please." and I "Oh sure, you know, oh, this person need a job." and she knows. And he knows. And I like women transportation from my department. I like to have drivers that are women. We can do it all. We can take the war.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's right. And now interestingly the head of the Teamsters in Los Angeles is Lindsay Dougherty, who's a woman who's incredible. So times they are a changing.

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: Oh, that woman is amazing.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: She gonna go places, but she are already on those places. This woman inspire anybody. Oh my goodness. Yes. She's so awesome.

Julie Harris Oliver: She's amazing. You can actually listen to her story on The Other 50%. Not to plug my other podcast, but interviewed Lindsay as well. She's incredible. Sandra, is there anything you wanna leave us with?

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: You know, I just wanna to thank Jeanette and Yolanda and all you guys for having us on, you know, my transport team, and [01:08:00] myself. It's been amazing and an awesome experience to work on this project and seeing, you know, every single day contributing to the making of this, awesome, because it was an awesome project, we are really thankful for.

Thank you so much for letting to be a part of Gray Matter.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great. Well, thank you so much for being a part of Catch A Break. It was so nice to see you. Again, go listen to her on episode 305. Thanks so much, Sandra.

Sandra Ninham Gallardo: Thank you, Julie. See you next time.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch A Break, Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Yvette Yurcisin, Dee Bryant, and Sandra Ninham Gallardo.

And special thanks to crewvie.com, a platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Check it out at cruvie.com. C R E W V I E.com.

Please check out our website at catchabreakpodcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight Studios and The Other [01:09:00] 50%. Our theme music Mantra for a Struggling Artist was composed by Andrew Joslyn.

Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

Next up we talk with cinematographer, Andrew Jeric and gaffer, Matt Hadley. Trust me, you wanna hear all about sodium vapor lights and the dimmer board. In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.

EP 404: The Art Department

Julie: [00:00:00] This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media places @CatchABreakPod, as well as all the podcast places.

The presenting sponsor of Season 4 of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot featuring a New York and LA downtown street with interiors and an alley, fully furnished production office space, and suite style executive offices along with post-production space. Dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all of their clients, Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need, any budget. Find them at santaclaritastudios.com.

We are continuing our Project [00:01:00] Greenlight series where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We are dropping these pretty fast, so if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 401.

In this episode, I sat down with production designer, Martina Buckley, set decorator, Vince Rodriguez, and set dresser, Joel Newton. We learn all about Martinez philosophy of method art department. You're gonna wanna hear this. Along with all of their other low budget indie adventures in the art department.

Okay, have a listen.

Alright, so I am here today with three of the people who worked on Gray Matter. We have Joel Newton, Vince Rodriguez, and Martina Buckley. So as a quick bio, Joel Newton has spent two thirds of his life on set and played mostly inside the art department with a start in production and a slight detour over on the grip side. We will hear more about that. Currently, content as a set dresser, he loves working for dedicated artists and is blessed to do so quite often. Welcome, Joel.

Joel: Hi. Thank you for having me. I'm, uh, I've been [00:02:00] enjoying your podcast since I've learned of it, and, thank you for letting me be a part of this.

Julie: Okay. Well that is an excellent start. Flattery will get you everywhere.

Joel: My sentiments exactly.

Julie: Vince Rodriguez is a proud Angelino and theater kid who grew up on the principles of love and inclusivity, which he carries with him on every set he walks into. Now you are talking my jam. A recently promoted set decorator, Vince was recognized for his work by the Art Director's Guild for his work on Rihanna's Savage X Fenty Volume 3 as a set decorator. Welcome Vince.

Vince: Hi. So good to be here. Thank you for having me.

Julie: Thank you for being here.

Okay. Martina Buckley is an award-winning Irish production designer based in Los Angeles, who has worked on 20 films as well as hundreds of commercials and music videos. A true visual storyteller who enjoys promoting method art department, which we are going to hear more about.

But let's start with this. Joel, tell me about your very first job in this business and how did you get it.

Joel: Well, I go back to, um, [00:03:00] I'm a fourth generation musician. My family had been in the music industry since long before I was born. So when I was a teenager, I ended up going to college early. Uh, I went in at 15 and then was a full-time student at 16.

I spent my summers down in Oklahoma, where my uncles who were studio musicians at an advertising boutique, hooked me up with, I can't say the name, but if you're from Oklahoma, you know, about a certain Christian cowboy, uh, movie series. And that's where I first learned about that chaos.

From then on, I moved out to LA when I was 19 and became a PA. Because I had experience running for Christian cowboys.

Julie: That's amazing. How did you get that first PA job?

Joel: Uh, I came out to LA. There's a 7-Eleven on the corner of Franklin, and no, maybe it's Vermont. It's up in Los Feliz. I pulled in there, I called my parents to check in and let [00:04:00] them know that I got there cause these are the days of payphones. And there was a, "would you like to be an extra make up to a hundred dollars a day?"

So I did extra work for the first, like two or three months out here. And funny enough, I was almost kicked off set for smoking some reefer. And then the first AD, whose name will remain nameless, uh, came up to me, asked me if I was holding, told me to bring some tomorrow, and that I was starting as a PA.

That was on, um, well I can't tell the movie then it'll give the AD away. Anyway, that was a early James Franco, Shane West movie where I played a high school student and then I became a PA for the last week of it. I got to boss around the other extras.

Julie: That was an excellent story. Thank you very much. So was that literally as you arrived in LA you saw this sign?

Joel: We had directions on Yahoo Maps from Marshall, Minnesota [00:05:00] to Mann's Chinese Theatre. And then we drove aimlessly around, pulled into that 7-Eleven. It was my, my partner, my writing partner, I moved out here with. Somebody hit us while I was on the phone in the parking lot, dented the car. He let the guy go and I came back and I was like, "we're gonna be extras! Look, I got a phone number!"

And he was like, somebody just hit our car. And then he didn't even realize how big of a dent it was. But yeah, that's, that's, that's the gist of it. I literally was maybe in town for two hours. I was on set the next day with Win Ben Stein's Money as an audience member.

Julie: This is amazing. I mean, not everyone's Hollywood story is that direct, but that is incredible. Thank you. All right, Vince, top that. What was your first job and how did you get it?

Vince: So, um, my first job in the industry was on the set of Married at First Sight, one of their season reviews, and I had just left my career in sales and insurance. And I was just kind of hanging out [00:06:00] and enjoying like unemployment. And I get a call from a buddy and he's like, "Hey, I need help, like, hang out with me and make some money."

And so I showed up and, the production designer on that set, we ended up hitting it off instantly. Um, and he, very quickly, we became brothers and he became a mentor to me.

Um, his name is Marc Manabat. And, uh, we worked together for about two years, like job after job, after job, after job, after job. And he's the one who gave me the opportunity to set decorate on Rihanna's Fenty fashion show.

Julie: Did you know you wanted to go into art department or did you fall in and that just happened to be your jam?

Vince: I fell in, and quite honestly, I, I don't, I don't think that I would've had the same tenacity and like passion had I helped out in any other department. Like it was absolutely for me, and I knew it within, you know, by the time lunch hit, you know.

Julie: I love that. [00:07:00] Okay. Martina, what was your first job and how did you get it?

Martina: Well, I kind of had two experiences. I had one when I was 18, when I was living in France, in Paris. And then I had another experience, um, when I moved out to LA when I was 27. So, um, the first one's really funny because I was living in Paris and I was working as a nanny and straight out of high school and, um, there was a nuns convent, convent in Paris where all the Irish girls would go and look for jobs. Yeah. So I went there and I was working as a nanny and I, you know, we'd go and look at the notice board in the nuns convent. How very Irish. And there was a, uh, notice to say that, uh, there's a very famous French comedian called Michel Blanc.

And, uh, Michel Blanc was doing a movie and they were looking for Irish people to be in a bar and drink for free and [00:08:00] act Irish. So it was a no brainer.

So I went there and I acted as an Irish person drinking and apparently did a good job, and they paid us. So I worked as an extra in Paris, uh, when I was 18, and I had no idea that I would end up in this business.

Julie: Amazing. Okay, so then how did you end up moving to LA and then how did you get in the business? Or was that your first move?

Martina: I wasn't in LA at first. I moved to LA after being in New York and Connecticut for seven and a half years. I became a nanny in Connecticut and put myself through college. Um, and I ended up with some scholarships. And then I ended up in New York City and my focus was really in fashion. The film industry was not really anything that I, I loved film, absolutely loved film as a child. Took some film courses in college. But I, that door wasn't open to me in New York, so I was in fashion. I worked for the Sierra shirt makers and I did private label for like [00:09:00] Ralph Lauren.

And, um, you know, I did the, I was a merchandiser in the menswear business at the men's line and then the women's line. And, you know, I thought I was gonna have a career in fashion.

So I ended up moving cross country. I had a boyfriend who worked on, was a producer on a show, and we drove cross country and the first thing I did was, um, they would do reenactments on this show. It was Rescue 911. And so they couldn't always find the garments that the people had the accidents in. So I would actually paint garments to look exactly or build garments to look like the outfit that the woman was wearing when the barracuda bit her.

And, that's how I started. Joel is dying laughing.

And so what happened from there was I started to get jobs in the costume department and I worked for a pretty prestigious costume designer, um, you know, draping, stitching, dealing with actors. But I kept looking at the art department and I kept listening. They [00:10:00] were always having conversations about art and music and food, and I kept thinking, they're my people. They're my people.

And um, so I left working with this very prestigious designer and I moved into the art department and I worked my way up. Because I knew how to paint, I knew how to drape, um, I knew how to build. And so I kind of went from there. I started as a PA in the art department. And I went all over town to all the prop houses and I introduced myself to everybody and I walked the floorboards of every prop house so that I could be of value when I got an opportunity.

Julie: Smart. I love that.

Okay. Now for this job, for Gray Matter, had you all worked together before or was this the first time you were all working together?

Vince: Uh, Joel was a blessing to us. Um, it was the first time that we had worked with him, but Martina and I had worked, um, a few commercials together and when I met her, I knew right away that she was tribe, you know, that we were kindred spirits. So, yeah, even [00:11:00] though it's been a short time, it, it also feels like, like an incredible lifetime too.

Julie: Now, were you familiar with the Project Greenlight franchise before you took this job, Joel?

Joel: I was, um, I'm not gonna say which one, but it was a very early one. I had PA'd on Project Greenlight back in the, in the, in the original iteration.

Julie: Oh, you'd worked on it before, like the Shia LaBeouf days?

Joel: Second to fourth year maybe.

Julie: So I'm curious for all of you, when you were presented with this opportunity and you're going to be on camera inside of a reality show while making the movie, what on earth made you sign up for that? How did that, how did that hit you as an opportunity?

Well, Joel, why don't you go first since you did it before.

Joel: Honestly, it's kind of a bit of a story on this one. I would've absolutely said no to Project Greenlight in a heartbeat. I honestly, I didn't really realize that that's what it was until after I'd met Martina.

But like I said, I was a blind hire. I [00:12:00] missed an email because I came home late from a wrap that had the producer of Project Greenlight and, uh, a really good friend of mine who's another designer that said, "I don't have anyone I can spare, but maybe Joel can help you." So I called back, I got it the next day and I was like, "Hey, you know, I'm, I'm interested. Whatever, Mel wants me to do, I can help you out."

And then I talked to our production manager and our production manager was like, "It's low budget, it's, it's not very big. We're all shooting at one location. Can you jump on?" I said, "Yeah, I can come do some days as a set dresser." And he said, "Can you get a few other guys?" And then he, so I rounded up a few other guys.

And the big part hit was when they said they had no lead man. And I was just gonna day play. That just means I come in maybe once a week for the run of the show and help out on big days, but I just hooked up like four of my guys on this show from beginning to end and I was like, well, no, I don't want [00:13:00] you just to pick some random lead man to stick with my friends on a blind hire. Uh, so why don't I take this on right now and we'll, we'll move it along.

And then I believe it was the next day I met Martina and we just clicked. I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this show. And then we, we had sat and talked for like a half an hour just getting to know each other. And then right at the same time, we both got some calls and my regular lead man called me and she took like a production call and he's like, what are you doing?

I was like, oh, I'm in Universal. I'm, I've just met this designer named Martina Buckley. And he's like, oh my God. He's like, I've done so many things with Martina. I've known her for years. He's like, you're gonna have a good time. He's like, are you, is it a feature? I was like, yeah, I'm gonna think I'm gonna lead this feature. And he's like, all right, well, I'll miss you for the next couple months. Uh, you're gonna have a blast. If she asks to cook for you, under no circumstances do you turn it down. And I was like, okay, cool.

So we went back in and then an hour later she was like, so they're not gonna feed us on this [00:14:00] job, so I'm gonna show up every day with food. And I was like, awesome. And, and that's how it went.

Julie: Okay. Vince, how about you? How did you find out it was gonna be, uh, well actually Joel, you didn't answer the part about you're gonna be on camera doing your job.

Joel: Oh yeah. So then I find out that it's Project Greenlight and she, and we're sitting in Universal, the thing is Universal prop house is like the biggest, most used prop house in town. They have their showroom side, and if you even walk in there with like one of their Dixie cups of water.

Uh, we prepped in $5,000 chairs. We sat on $20,000 sofas, treating $10,000 desks as our work desks because they know Martina and they love her, and we didn't have anywhere else we could do it. And she was like, I'm just, here's my bag of resources. Bam.

After that, I was just, I'm in it. She's like, they're gonna be coming by and we're gonna be getting interviewed in these showroom chairs. And I'm like, oh no, it's Project Greenlight. I was like, but at this [00:15:00] point I had already fallen in, in love with this lady and was ready to jump into it.

Yeah. I mean, it, it's, it's in my bio. I, I I, I look for, for fun people to work with. And, uh, when my guy said that Marina was amazing, that's like having, you know, that's a message from Oden right there. So that's, that's my it. I was not happy about being on camera though. I am not a camera person, but we'll get to that part later and I'll be kind.

Julie: Okay. Alright. Vince, how about you? How'd you react when you thought, oh, I'm gonna be on this show doing my job?

Vince: Well, having a background in acting and, and theater, if you meet me for 10 minutes, you know that a. I love to talk. B. I love to make people smile, so I, I'm an entertainer regardless of what, whatever professional hat I'm wearing.

So knowing that and having Martina, you know, a relationship with her for about a year at that point, she was in contact and then [00:16:00] she reached out to me and she was like, Vince, you're gonna love it. It's Project Greenlight and this is such a beautiful opportunity for you to just showcase not only your talent, but who you are as a human being and, and how you work with people.

Um, but we were also like, we had a good laugh because she was like, "well, maybe you'll hate it, but I doubt it," you know? Um, and that was great. Like that, that laugh really kind of set the tone, I think, for what was to be, what, like two and a half months on this project.

Julie: So for you, this was like all the things. This is like the best job in the world. I get to be on camera and do my job and work with Martina. Sign me up.

Vince: Absolutely. I mean, yes. Uh, but when we were in the thick of things, it, uh, I don't, I don't ever like remember having, like being aware of the cameras because it was always feature first. It was always putting out the best possible product, regardless of our environment.

But with that being said, during those like lulls or those down times or [00:17:00] after we were done, you know, I was keenly aware and like, you know, there is maybe an extra smile here or there.

Julie: Okay. Martina, how, do people always talk this way about you? In front of you?

Martina: No, you don't really. I mean, people are very kind and the crews in Los Angeles are just so beautiful and I can say that because I've worked all over the world. And I just come back from working on a very difficult feature in minus two degree weather in Montana. And the director was phenomenal. The producer is beautiful. Um, the DP was phenomenal. But there was challenges with, with the crew because, there was some eagles and there was some inexperience and um, it was just a very challenging job and it was a period film. It was 1870s and it was multiracial, so it was really exciting for me to do that.

And, um, to come back to LA and to be able to work on this project and tap Vince immediately, cause [00:18:00] I really wanted to do a film with Vince cause Vince is just a tremendous amount of talent and so much potential and he does bring the actor with him, and that's really important cause he can go inside the characters.

But also, um, Vince has a, a great ability to find phenomenal people, and not just in his department. And then Vince is so incredibly generous. He'll say, "Hey, Martina, this is an amazing construction coordinator."

And Joel is the same way. Joel went through hell. Hell. Because every single day, Joel was faced with finding people to fill in the gaps, fill in the gaps, fill in the gaps. And when you're on a tier one, he never complained about it. But when you're on a tier one film, right, the minute somebody gets a decent job or a better rate, they're out of there. Like the hummers, the hell. And Joel, every single day dealing with that. And that was my biggest concern on this [00:19:00] entire project.

And the producer, Jeanette, um, told me, and also Yolanda, they told me, they're like, Martina, we got you. We'll get you a great lead person. And um, I have heard that so many times. Vince has heard it so many times as well. And, um, they did it. They did it, and I couldn't believe it.

But ultimately we were all there to make a feature film, right? That was first and foremost. And I put it out into the universe that I wanted to do a sci-fi film, and when this bounced back, my reaction was read the script first. So I read the script immediately. It was a great script, but it felt very white. And then I was told it's a multicultural project, so that thing that, that definitely appealed to me.

And then they were like, you, you know, I was on camera for my interview with them, which was really intense and I kind of, I've had a lot of opportunities. I've won awards in the past and I've never taken advantage of when [00:20:00] something goes your way. You know, I've always been kind of like, ha, you know, you didn't really think I was that great before I got the award. I was a ding dong.

So when this came up, I felt like, okay, the universe is giving you an opportunity. You're in the stage of your life where you're a pro and you're supposed to teach. This is your, this is your Celtic obligation. This is your, uh, obligation as a, as a female, you're a pro. And so I said, okay, I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to show people what we do, how we do it, and, um, the joy of it. That's really what it was about for me.

And then just having the pleasure of working with such a gorgeous group of people. Masha Nova, who's the art director who's worked with me for 10 years, came in as a PA, and came up through the ranks. Um, it was just, I was protected cause I had the most magnificent people around me.

Julie: Now I heard that you actually were hired kind of late in the process and so were under a tremendous time [00:21:00] crunch. And I'm curious how you were able to overcome that and what did you have to do in order to make it all happen?

Martina: It was shocking. Uh, you know, when I came in, um, there had been another designer on the project and um, you know, a very lovely person, a young designer coming up in their career. And I'm sure we'll hear the person again. And I wish them the absolute best of luck.

And so I had three weeks. I got the call on a Thursday from my, um, agent Ivana Savic. And she gave me the script. I read it, I made a presentation, and I met with them on Friday. And literally as I was driving back, they decided they wanted to go with me, which I was very grateful for.

And I hit the ground running on Monday, and it was a three week prep, which is, insane, insane. It's just unheard of. And um, once I had tapped Vince and tapped Masha, and the fact that we were in town, you know, I didn't have to go abroad or go to Montana and and like not be [00:22:00] able to tap really beautiful people that I've worked with before.

And then I knew I could make a deal at Uni because I've known Beverly Hadley who's running property and costume department and we've got Ray on the ground floor. I knew everybody. And a lot of designers don't necessarily walk the floor prop houses, but I do. And I love those guys and it's a gold mine. I'm killing myself here cause everybody's gonna start doing what I do.

But Uni is a gold mine. There's so much great stuff there, but you do have to rummage around and you do have to kind of, um, it's better, the culture is much better there than it used to be. And so, you know, what I've done is on the, on the cowboy film, I made a deal and I took a, a lot of iconic, beautiful Victorian furniture out of Uni.

And on this one, and it was a lump sum, and they were so gracious with me. And so I had a lump of money on this. I went to Beverly, we negotiated and we took everything out of Uni. And then Vince and [00:23:00] I went to work from there.

And, and, you know, normally I wouldn't have been so heavy handed with the set deck, especially with somebody like Vince, uh, to help and make it happen. But because I only had three weeks of prep, I knew all of the locations were practical locations, and we were shooting in one complex and all of the sets were there. So the idea was to create a gold room there to have the truck go down, bring all the stuff up there, and then we had our own prop house that we took everything from, and the truck wasn't going back and forth to LA because we couldn't take the chance that stuff would show up on time. So what we did was we convoyed out there and we set up a beautiful prop house and broke it out into sets, which was really great for the confidence of the director as well, and for the show Project Greenlight, because they could actually come and visit our prop house.

And we decked it out. We had a tea set up, we had a coffee set up. And [00:24:00] you know, we were living there. Joel was living there more than anybody else. But it was a great spot and they gave us a great building and we went from there every day and we weren't back and forth cause we were in Pomona. Some days it would take four hours to get there and we couldn't take the chance.

And I saved production a fortune by not running trucks back and forth with Teamsters back and forth to LA every single day. That gave us the chance to really focus on dressing the sets rather than waiting for the truck to come back. And we had tons of stuff, didn't we Vince? We had tons of stuff. We took six five tons full of furniture out of Uni. We cleared out the joint.

I made my own prop house with Vince and Joel, and they were very good to me. And I'm super grateful to Universal cause we couldn't have done it without them. Not only that, they gave us permission to bring in Project Greenlight, which is actually HBO Warner Brothers. So Beverly Hadley made it possible for them to actually come onto the lot and shoot us while we were prepping.

And [00:25:00] I just think that's more exciting than watching previous episodes of Project Greenlight where everybody was white and it was a bunch of talking heads, there was some arrogance. And this was a gang of multicultural people all working together for the greater good of a super talented director and spectacular female producers.

So from the start, it was, we weren't in it for the money cause there wasn't that much money. We were in it for storytelling and making it as good as it could be and supporting our incredible director Meko. It was a joy. It was an absolute joy.

Julie: Okay, that's wonderful. I wanna dig into all those things cause I know that Jeanette and Yolanda were able to hire a very diverse crew, set a very inclusive, um, culture. At least I've heard that. So I would love to hear, uh, what your thoughts were about that, Vince and Joel. But let's start with Vince.

Vince: Yeah, absolutely. Um, this by far was my favorite project. As far as the, in, like the crew [00:26:00] in its entirety is concerned. Um, there was a really special air of communication and collaboration that you, you don't really get.

And, and there is definitely some waves being made right now within the industry where inclusivity and collaboration are, are starting to make more of a, a, a presence. But the old guard, it's very, you know, stick to your department, speak when spoken to, that kind of thing. Um, which quite honestly, you can't, you can't really, uh, create art if you don't feel liberated or you don't feel free to do so.

So, um, in regards to Gray Matter, you'd show up every day and people had smiles on their faces and like, you know, we're having crosstalk between departments and you could just really feel the energy. It was truly palpable, um, and really, really special. And I don't think that it would've been possible had it not been for the foresight of, you know, the producers and the department [00:27:00] heads to really make a conscious decision to include this in their crews.

Julie: All right, Joel.

Joel: Well, um, when I sat down with Martina and she was explaining to me the Project Greenlight, I started getting a bad taste in my head, though, one of the first things that she mentioned was this is not the Project Greenlight of old. This is really focusing on putting women and people of color into positions of power to be able to give them art to create, to go out to the world. And to me that's very important and had been for a long time.

So being around a diverse and accepting inclusive crew is very important to me. So, my, half of my bad taste for the idea of joining Project Greenlight was gone when Martina mentioned that. Cause it's, it's a move we need in Hollywood.

Julie: I mean, it sounds like, having watched every season of Project Greenlight, it, it feels like this season was kind of a reparative experience.

I remember the last season just blew up over this stuff and so it, it seems like some years have gone by, some things have changed. It sounds like it was really [00:28:00] reparative to the franchise.

Joel: Watching the PAs on this, they had a very different experience than I had 20 years ago. I'll, and I'll, I'll leave it at that.

This is a very inclusive and warm crew. There was not anybody for me in a, doing a job that I very often have to butt heads with people, I didn't have to butt heads as much. And I could be myself everywhere, and it was cool.

Julie: How wonderful.

Um, now I'm curious, you know, we haven't seen what the reality show will come to be yet, so we haven't seen what sort of struggles and challenges and conflicts they'll show in that show. But I'm, I'm curious what sort of challenges you found and had to overcome that that may or may not end up on the show. Like what, what were some, what were some challenges? You really, I know budget and time were one, but was there any particular instance where you're like, oh, this is a thing we don't know how we're going to make it happen and then you ended up making it happen?

Okay. Martina's showing me the [00:29:00] LaCroix can. Go ahead.

Vince: The, uh, the coconut LaCroix absolutely kept us sane. It was, it was, it was our, our, our rally, um, our rally drinks, so to speak.

Um, but when things got a little hectic, uh, you felt the entire, you know, team pull tighter rather than step back and point a finger. Um, and that I really respect about everybody, you know, from Martina to Masha, all the way down to Joel and all of the, the wonderful crew that we had.

But I think it was another episode of, uh, Catch A Break where someone had mentioned you don't fix problems in post. You fix problems in prep. And there is that, that was absolutely the case with us.

Like I know time is almost like a universal, um, complaint, or lack thereof, right? Um, but had it not been for [00:30:00] Martina hitting the ground running and coming up with the idea that we were going to, you know, convoy, six five tons from floor to ceiling and have a warehouse, you know, a prop house, it would've made everybody's life super difficult. It would've cost a ton of money.

Um, so I think the biggest headache was nipped in the bud before we even stepped foot onto location.

Julie: And then Joel, Martina talked about the challenge you had of finding day players all the time. Was that the biggest challenge you had or were there other things that were really challenging?

Joel: It wasn't the biggest challenge, but it was a very daily challenge. And I don't know if they'll hear this, but Cip, Angel, Rico, Brian, Kyle, I could not have done it without you guys. The, the deal really is for those, uh, who don't understand, I work commercially. That is my bread and butter. That is a much higher pay rate, [00:31:00] much more, less stress with getting paid over-time, not having to go through a big chain of command. We're in, we're out. I work two weeks a month and I, I make a very happy living off of that with very low stress.

When you jump onto a tier one, you're asking your friends and your coworkers to take a pay cut. So the rule of thumb with my guys was if you got called for a job, you take it, it becomes my problem. You just come back as soon as you can. And I gave that, I, I told the PM first thing right up when we started getting into moving on this, that this is how it is. There's gonna be days, like I gave him a schedule of everywhere where I needed extra dudes. He had it in advance. We never broke off of that schedule too, except for the fact that someday we might be short. But I was able to keep, I had an extra of five guys I think probably that came in and filled in for a day or two here.

But it was a constant, alright, you gotta go. I lose you for two days. I lose you for three days. I gotta bring [00:32:00] this in. But my point with the PM, um, with COVID being in play, he did not give any hassles. If I had a day player, I literally called at four o'clock in the morning to show up at six, he had a COVID person there, they would isolate him for a half an hour, do a rapid test, and then send him right up to me to go into the, uh, the grinder.

So I was very thankful of Corey. Corey was a very great and understanding PM. He had a lot to go off of. He had a lot on his plate and he really did a great job.

Julie: Amazing. And I, I bet that core group of people that you work with are pretty loyal cause they could go do a high pay job and knowing they could come back.

Joel: Yeah. My dudes without them, honestly, like, there's two things that I believe couldn't have happened with this show. This show would not have been the quality that it was if they didn't land Martina, because Martina's just this gigantic bag of resources and she's, again, she saved them so much in just knowing.

The thing with, with [00:33:00] Martina and Vince is they've done my job. They've done the job below me, they've done the job below that, and they've done the jobs above me, so they know. When they say we are gonna take six five tons out of Universal over the course of a week, I know we're gonna take floor to ceiling. We had all the space we needed. She called it right off the bat.

Oh, and the other thing that couldn't have worked is if I was not able to keep a steady amount of guys. Um, this movie is shot mostly at nights and it splits and then being a, I mean, she's not kidding, some, on some days it took her four hours to get all the way into, into set. And we'd be sitting, taking phone calls with her and she'd be telling us what freeways she changed onto.

But if I was not able to keep a good amount of, of people coming in, that was loyal to me that, I mean, everyone fell in love with Martina on the first day. She, she really, she wants everyone to engage. That doesn't happen on commercials at all and [00:34:00] features, it's a very rare thing. She wants your opinion. We're in neck down position. We move furniture off a truck onto a set, and then we move it back onto the truck. And we embrace that because it's, it's no thinking.

She got everyone's engagement asked everyone's, how they felt about this, if they thought they could add anything else. Uh, so just between her resources and then the mix of dudes that I have that I'm so grateful for that are loyal, that's what pulled this off.

Julie: Now, Martina, you talk about method art department, which I think is a nod to method acting. Would you explain that? I

Martina: would explain it. But before we get to that, I'd also like to just bring up, um, Vince, because Vince got me the best construction coordinator. He got us an amazing art department PA, Sophie, that was so resourceful and so talented. And we also had the pleasure of working with Joel's wife in the prop department, who was excellent, um, Charity.

And I just really wanna give Vince a [00:35:00] nod for, um, just kind of, um, stepping out of, uh, just being the decorator. And also Vince is very collaborative, so Vince actually let me do these things and let me help him. And then Vince took the reins from there.

And the other thing is I always feel comfortable having Vince on our crew in the position that Vince is in, because I know Vince is not going to be abusive to people he's working with. And that's a big deal. And then, um, I'm also not generally that comfortable handing the reins to a decorator that's not as evolved, maybe. And Vince is a very evolved person. He genuinely cares. You know, Vince carries with him a spirituality and a genuineness that means so much to me, and he puts that into everything he does.

And to have him and Joel at the same time, I couldn't believe, I just couldn't believe it. Because wherever there were [00:36:00] gaps, both of them stepped out of their roles as decorator and lead man and said, "Hey Martina, I know this one over here and they're fabulous. Let me go and sort that out for you." So I just wanted to put that out there as well.

You know, it's a collaboration. I don't wanna do it by myself. And working with these beautiful people, it's different every time. And you learn and you grow. And I'm grateful. If it's hard, I wanna do it. I wanna grow, I wanna learn. I'm gonna be 57 this week and I'm really excited because I work with these people who teach me.

Julie: Okay, now the method bit.

Martina: So method art department is something I came up with to help people engage. Because sometimes, you know, you see somebody putting books on a bookshelf and you say to them, ah, I don't know if the character will have those books, and they don't know what you're talking about. They're just really, literally, as Joel says, functioning from the head down. I don't want that. I don't want it, no part of it. [00:37:00]

I am an immigrant. I don't know everything about American culture, even though I've been here for half of my life. And so what I wanna do is I want everybody to emotionally connect to the material because that means they care.

And also, it's not just a job. We're the art department. Somebody said about me once and I really appreciated it, "Martina Buckley, putting the art back in art department," I mean it's humbling, right? Humbling. It was Johnny Day. But, um, I, that's kind of a big deal to me, you know? And so I want everybody to feel connected to the material and to feel their contribution is massive.

So the idea is like a method actor. You watch these incredible actors step into a set. The likes of Lynn Collins, the likes of, oh my God, there's so many amazing great actors that we've worked with, that we've had the pleasure to work with. They're always in character when they walk onto the set. [00:38:00] And so when they do that, I, I work, what I create, like smell on the set as well, so that the environment smell like what it should smell like. If it's a bakery, it should smell like a bakery. If it's a strip bar, it should smell like vanilla perfume and beer. And it's, it really helps everybody.

And I find that the people in the art department love that as well. They're like, oh my God.

Julie: Hold on. You put the scents onto the set. I've never heard of that, and that is brilliant.

Martina: Thank you. I do, because many years ago I worked on a film and I had spent six months with the director and all of the actors were improvising, and they all had opinions about everything. I would get phone calls, at the time there were answering machines, I would have famous actors leaving messages on my answering machines at 11 o'clock at night telling me where they thought the door should be on the set, right.

So I knew this, excuse me, this famous costume designer [00:39:00] would say to me, "Darling, it's Diva Junction. Diva Junction." And so, um, I knew that the first day they were gonna walk onto the set, it was like a $1.2 million set, that they were gonna be nervous and they felt like they were gonna have to say something and that they were going to have criticisms, possibly, right, because it was their first time.

And so what I did was, the last thing we did was we sprayed the entire place with vanilla perfume and beer and made all the surfaces sticky. It was a strip bar and the minute they stepped in, it disarmed them. I saw the expressions on their faces cause all of these girls had been working in real strip bars and they were kind of like, you know, really getting into character. Some very famous actors and some super talented people.

And so, they just immediately started doing their job and I was like, oh my God, this works. And that was method art department as well, because that was going inside cause with this [00:40:00] director, I was visiting strippers and I would see, I would smell and I would feel, and so I wanted, and I would even sit in the dressing rooms while strippers were getting dressed.

And I, you know, I learned all the things around them and what they would do. Right. So, and it was an honor. It was an absolute honor. All of the things we do, it's, it's an honor to go inside another person's home and, and have the privilege of seeing their lives and then turning it into another world. It's an honor to do that.

So Method is really kind of going inside the character and I expect everybody to do it. I do. And I expect everybody to read the script, and it's not just shoving things in. Nothing we do is random. Nothing. Everything that's in the room is there because it tells you about who the character was before we met them.

This is their life, and I call us the current in the river. You put your hand in the water, you can feel us, but you [00:41:00] shouldn't see us. If you see us, it's a problem. It means I have a big ego or I have a favorite color, or that's my taste. And that this is not what it's about. It's about the story. So all of these beautiful people that I have the privilege of working about, the likes of Vince, the likes of Joel, the likes of Masha Nova, Sophie, everybody that worked with us, yeah, they get in there and they do things for me that I don't even expect. Or they do things for the characters that I don't even expect, and it just sets me on fire. I'm just so happy about the whole thing and that's what it's about. That's Method Art Department.

Julie: That is so beautiful and reminds me why I love talking to artists so much. That was so great.

All right, we are running out of time and we have a few more important questions I wanna ask you. Um, Vince, what is your favorite memory from this job that you'll take with you?

Vince: My favorite memory, I mean, there, there are [00:42:00] a lot to choose from and all of them revolve around, uh, just being with, with our team and laughing or eating beautiful food, as Martina likes to say. And it was. It absolutely was. You know, those moments where we celebrated, uplifting each other or just support.

But, there was one day, uh, and I don't, I don't know why, like I have an art department car. Um, and for those that are listening out there, that means, uh, your car is messy and there's a bunch of random things in there. You know, you may, you may have a couple bolts, you may have, uh, a few wigs like it, it's just, it's a hodgepodge of, of, uh, random things.

But anyway, I had a wig, and it was a big curly wig, and I threw it on and I found some glasses that were like 70s, like just big old, like disco glasses. And I turned the corner and, and we had just got over the hump. You know, we, [00:43:00] we finished our last, uh, really big set. Um, so I turned the corner and I was like, "Hey, Martina, you know, I, I think that we should go back to set. There's something."

And she was like, she started to respond before she like realized. She was like, oh my God. And the laugh, the laugh that, um, we all had collectively was incredible.

Yeah. There was that, and then there was a group photo that we took at the very end of the project where you could feel the joy and the triumph that everybody felt. Yeah.

Julie: Okay. Joel, tell me your favorite memory that you're gonna take away.

Joel: I can't decide if it's between the stroganoff or the curry, but there was,

Julie: But definitely food.

Joel: It was definitely food.

Um, there was a great day where I realized, so we talked about start late and not having much prep. Vince, give me the thumbs up, but you were really kind of the last one on the crew to actually get into the game with us cause you were on another project, right?

Vince: Yeah, yeah.

Joel: I didn't know what to [00:44:00] expect with, with Vince. I'd spent a few days with Martina. We had been running it down. Um, and I had, I had a game plan and a schedule, but we started moving so difficult. We worked off hours with the set, which really meant a few of us started the morning at like anywhere between 6 and 8 and then didn't go home until midnight or 1, and then repeat because we're busting our hump all day and crew doesn't show up until we're 8 or 10 hours into our day.

But when I realized that I was able, Vince, we talked about how he came up. So Vince was, was a 44 set dresser, like me. Normally set decorators are wearing white shirts and they do this and this and this. I was able to send Vince with guys and not only be able to have him be at the set back with the art, but he's like, "okay, well bring the truck back in here and then you guys will start with this. Bring this in for me so I can make, I'll make room for you to land."

And then he would really go [00:45:00] off and, and do, he'd take on a, a heavy share of my position to help me out because he just, he knows the job and what it entitles. And we were always just on go.

Well, I have, I think I have one picture of a day with two, with just two of my guys and me sitting down and then you can see the boss table where Vince and Masha and Martina had in the background. And I was like, this is so great. We have like a sit down moment.

So, but the day that I, I realized that, that Vince was able to do heavy lifting with me like that, it was, it was just such a, a blessing. It was great. That was probably that. That or the curry.

Julie: That or the curry. Great.

Martina, what's your favorite memory from the show?

Martina: You know what? There were so many brilliant moments with these people and just, I think for me, what really stood out, what was very emotional and beautiful for me, um, was just the [00:46:00] kindness. The kindness, and the fact that they cared so much. It meant so much to me. It just meant the world to me.

And the senses of humor and the taste in music and just, um, it was just a, a beautiful, the whole thing was beautiful. I mean, you know, there was a, a hot moment with myself and the AD and, um, but it was not a big deal. We hugged each other, we worked it out.

Um, how we got rid of the, the people from the docu-crew is we would actually go, you are awesome. No, you are awesome. No, you're awesome. We would hug each other, love on each other, and then they were like, yeah, boring.

But actually they loved being around us and we had like a whole tea set up, you know, and that's a big thing from, you have a tea kit, but when I wasn't there, Angel was, you know, Angel started making the tea for everybody. And he was lashing out pots of tea, and my tea was going down very fast and it was super expensive. [00:47:00] And when I came back I was like, "holy shit, where's my tea?" And they said, "Angel's been making us tea all day." I said, "Angel, you can use those tea leaves four or five times, my darling."

And so, but there was, just the level of kind of love and connection and then with the crew, the food for the crew was fantastic. The issue for us was that our schedule was a reverse schedule, so, there was, there's beautiful Indian food out in, uh, Pomona, Corona. And so every day we had nice food. I wasn't cooking all the time, but the food is a big thing for our department people. And we got to sit down and we got to be together.

The community of the art department, the, that was magical for me. I will have to say it was one of the best experiences I've ever had in spite of the fact that it was tier one and in spite of the fact that it was a challenging project because the, the, the [00:48:00] docu-crew, who were absolutely lovely and I kept turning the camera on them, um, it slows you down. It slows you down. So that was challenging because we were all there to make a movie and we wanted to make the best possible movie we could.

And, um, I just love these producers. Corey was a phenomenal UPM and, and his production manager Miranda, they were just brilliant, you know. I just super appreciate that everybody really cared. Costume designer was magical, actors were beautiful, and it was just a very good experience.

Julie: That's wonderful. I'll be curious to see how much you all show up in the reality show given that you didn't have that much drama and were just having a nice time.

Joel, what do you wanna say?

Joel: I'm gonna go out there and say this on record. I can't wait to see this, but also I'm really excited to see Gray Matter as a film because I think it's gonna be rad and I generally don't watch stuff that I work on.

Well, it's gonna be a fun, it's gonna be a fun show and it's gonna be a great film. I [00:49:00] don't say that usually about stuff that I worked on, but, but I really am excited to see what we all brought together on this one.

Me too.

Julie: All right. This brings us to our martini shot, which you all know what that is. It's our last shot of the day. And I'm gonna ask each of you, what is your piece of advice for someone who is trying to do what you do in your career? What advice would you have for them? Let's start with Joel.

Joel: I have been giving bad advice on the film industry for years, uh, but the best advice I could really tell people when they're in their first couple of years, in your first five years of working on set, no matter what department on, you're going to meet a lot of people and they're gonna make a lot of empty promises. And you can't take those promises to heart, but that doesn't mean they're bad people. So know your boundaries and know when you are being disrespected on set and don't stand for it.

But don't let that [00:50:00] stop you from putting your love and your heart into it. It's a very nuanced business and it's a grinder of a business and a lot of really talented people get shit on really early, and that costs us the art that they could have given us.

So just be wary, but be wise about how you network, no matter what department you're in. Uh, and if you are gonna be in the art department, like all of us, the, um, I meant to say this earlier, the art department, you don't pick the art department. The art department picks you. Nobody wakes up and says, "I want to be a furniture mover for the rest of my life." At least not in my case. That's it.

Julie: Yeah. Can we just say across the board, just be nice, be nice to people.

Um, okay, Vince, let's hear it. Your martini shot.

Vince: I absolutely love that this is our martini shot, um, because education and empowerment are so close to my heart and always has been, so the fact that, you know, we, you've crafted [00:51:00] a question for the person who's, uh, maybe on the outside or, or just took their first step in, is absolutely beautiful. Thank you.

Um, I, uh, I, I really had to, to kind of sit with this one for a minute and, um, , my advice would be to keep close to your heart that joy and excitement that, uh, you felt, those goosebumps that you felt when you decided to take the plunge, uh, when you decided that you wanted to be an artist, to remember that and hold onto that. You know, when maybe things don't look so favorable or things are tough.

Um, be tenacious in your pursuit of your art and move with joy and love. And whether that's interacting with your crew, interacting with, you know, your, your prop house managers, um, develop your network, celebrate the, the help that you get, every opportunity that you get.

And lastly, yeah, just, just be tenacious. Actually that's, that's it.

Julie: Okay. Martina, [00:52:00] you get that the martini shot of martini shots.

Martina: I just would really advise people to lead with love and to not be ever, um, insecure about their ideas, you know, and, and not to change, you know, to always have a sparkle. And sometimes things happen, sometimes you get blamed for things. We don't like to play the blame game cause we've been blamed a lot for things, and it's the, there's always a scapegoat thing.

Everybody gets fired. I've been fired twice. I sat next to Darius Khondji when he was fired from Panic Room and um, you know, sometimes it has nothing to do with you. When I was fired, the first time it had to do with that I was making more money than the director cause I just won a bigger award.

And so I just want people to understand that you really have to be resilient, and you have to be committed, and you kind of have to always go back to who you are and not change, or not let it [00:53:00] make you bitter or angry. And, um, you know, that's the thing. It's, it is a tough business. It's not necessarily about money, particularly when you're in the art department. Um, but it's incredibly rewarding. And every single time I work, I learn something new. And to me, that's the gift of growing and I embrace that wholeheartedly.

Julie: Thank you. All right. Thank all of you. We have to stop now because my face hurts cause I've literally been smiling for an hour.

Martina Buckley, Vincent Rodriguez, Joel Newton, thank you so much for being on Catch A Break.

Joel: Thank you for having me on this. I look forward to hearing it and, and more of your other podcasts.

Vince: I'm so grateful for the last, you know, hour and change to, you know, just speak about the industry with you and to enjoy Joel and Martina's company. Again, this is definitely the highlight of my week. Thank you.

Martina: Thank you so much Julie. This was brilliant [00:54:00] and I wanna, you know, just really I miss Joel and I miss, you know, I miss Vince, so it's beautiful to see them and I look forward to doing another project with them real soon, you know. We're working on some stuff right now and also Cip and all the other beautiful people that we worked with, I can't wait to repay them for what they did for all of us, for this film and for this story.

So thank you so much for this opportunity. We really appreciate it.

Julie: Wonderful. Thank you all so much and we'll talk to you next time.

This has been Catch A Break, Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Martina Buckley, Vince Rodriguez and Joel Newton. And special thanks to cruvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide.

Please check out our website at catchabreakpodcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight Studios and The Other 50%. Our theme music Mantra for a [00:55:00] Struggling Artist was composed by Andrew Joslyn.

Thanks for listening and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. Next up we talk about the locations, stunts, and transportation department with Yvette Yurcisin, Dee Bryant, and Sandra Ninham-Gallardo. Not only did they do an incredible job, but we also talked about some fascinating side jobs.

In the meantime, I hope this helped you to catch a break.

EP 403: The Table Read

CAB EP 3 FINAL 7.8

​[00:00:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media @catchabreakpod, as well as all the podcast places.

The presenting sponsor of season four of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot featuring a New York and LA downtown street with interiors and an alley, fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices along with post-production space dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all of their clients, Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need and budget. Find them [00:01:00] at santaclaritastudios.com.

Hey everyone. If you're like me, what you watch depends on what kind of mood you're in. Sometimes I'm craving comedies like Friends or South Park, and sometimes I am totally into dramas like HBO Succession and House of the Dragon. I also love cooking shows like Chopped and Beat Bobby Flay, and don't get me started with movies like Lord of the Rings and Shazam Fury of the Gods.

Well, Max is the streaming destination that has the best of entertainment for whatever mood I'm in, anytime. And plans start as little as $9.99 a month. Max the one to watch. You have to subscribe though, so visit max.com.

We are continuing our Project Greenlight series where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We're dropping these pretty fast, so if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 4 0 1.

Okay, so sometimes that I'm getting to the end of an episode, I will ask my guests, is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't ask you, and sometimes that just brings up a gem of a [00:02:00] conversation that we weren't expecting.

At the end of interviewing Jeanette, Yolanda, and Meko, I asked, is there anything I didn't ask you that I should have asked you, and that uncovered a whole conversation about the table read and how it was not at all what they thought it was going to be. So here is Meko, Jeanette, and Yolanda talking about what happened on table read day, how it really went. Okay, have a listen.

So I'm sitting here with Jeanette Volturno, Yolanda Cochran, and Meko Winbush, and we were just having a long conversation about Project Greenlight and Gray Matter and all the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

And then it came up the day of the table read that everybody wanted to talk about. So we thought, let's do a little mini episode as a bonus just talking about the table read day. Because I think from what I hear it was, it was a bit unusual. Meko, why don't you tell us about how that day went, or why don't we even start back before that? What is a table read day?

Meko Winbush: I guess it's just a day where everyone sits around a table and reads the script. [00:03:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: I guess it is pretty self-explanatory. Yeah, we, we like to go back to basics, but sometimes it really is, you don't need that.

Yolanda T. Cochran: It's interesting that I will point out that in my experience in both film and television, they operate a little bit differently between film and tv.

Julie Harris Oliver: How so?

Yolanda T. Cochran: I mean, the table read's always a little bit about let's hear. Let's hear the script and hear how the story's playing and how our performances are going. In the film world, it's really about focus on script and potential script changes more so than performance and those kinds of things, especially because at that stage, you're generally within days of shooting your movie. Whereas in particularly in episodic television, it's a lot about, there's constant casting because there's an episode every, you know, there's an episode every week or whatever the case may be. Your shooting schedule might be a little bit longer, but it's, it's more in addition to hearing the script and making [00:04:00] changes to the script for the writer's room, it's also about evaluating the individual performers who've recently been cast who aren't series regulars. Yeah. So they operate a little bit differently.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So this would've been like the first time everyone sits down, reads the script, we hear the characters, we hear how it goes, and you're starting to think of, how am I gonna direct this thing, listening to how everybody's reading.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. And part of it too, the script was still kind of a little bit in flux also. So it was an opportunity to at least hear everyone read it. Or at least hear all the dialogue by the people who are actually gonna be delivering those lines on set.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, so let's talk about that day.

The sun came up, and then what happened?

Meko Winbush: Birds were singing. No. Um, so yeah, we get there and yeah, that was my first day actually meeting any of the cast members. I mean, we were kind of casting up until the, till the last minute. But yeah, this was the, the first time that I got to meet all of the cast.

And so for instance, Mia, I think this [00:05:00] was on a Monday, she basically had just accepted the role on, on Saturday and was flying Sunday. So this is, you know, first time I'm meeting her, her first time I'm meeting Garret. Um, I was, able to have a quick, quick chat with Jessica prior to it on Zoom, which was nice cause part of the thing is like, I, I wanna get to know the actors.

I would've liked to have gotten to know the actors just on a personal level.

Julie Harris Oliver: Sure.

Meko Winbush: Before, you know, sitting down and reading the script, you know, before even getting into character and choices and motivations and, and all of that. But unfortunately, I, I, you know, I kind of, I didn't really have that opportunity just because we were moving so quickly.

These offers were kind of happening very last minute, and I think Garret had just flown in from another shoot he was on. Yeah, there's definitely, I, I, you know, in hindsight, I absolutely wish I could have met with each person. I mean, even if it was just, 20 minutes just alone privately like, "hi, where are you from? What are your hobbies?" Like, "who are you?" Um, you know, at least cause we're gonna be in the trenches together, so let's get to know each other a little bit.

Julie Harris Oliver: So [00:06:00] was it like, hello everybody we're sitting down, we're reading.

Meko Winbush: No, it was kind of

Julie Harris Oliver: And that was kinda your first

Meko Winbush: No, you know, when we got there cause people were getting covid tested and all of this and so it was just, you know, finally like

Julie Harris Oliver: another layer,

Meko Winbush: Hey, hi.

And then there's food or something and then, you know, we all kind of sit down and that was the opportunity for, it's like, okay, let's sit down. And then I was just gonna have them read the script. So I, you know, this is my first time hearing it from other people and it's like, I don't really care so much about performance. Let's just, yeah, let's just hear it. And

Julie Harris Oliver: Like, I gotta think they're nervous doing the table read anyway.

Meko Winbush: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then nervous having a camera in your face and having this, like, you have to perform as a human.

Meko Winbush: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Besides as an actor. I mean that, it's a lot of moving parts.

Meko Winbush: It is, it is. And it, yeah, it was, and also they're kind of just going off of what's on the page. Like I didn't, I didn't really give instruction, like, let's just hear it and then, you know, afterwards lets

Yolanda T. Cochran: That's because that was your first, it was the first. Cause we had a pre, a pre-read. So you guys, the first time you guys read it was a pre-read.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, just like let them read it and then it's like, [00:07:00] okay, now we can talk about, you know, character or whatever and, and choices and this and that and, but honestly, a cast this big, I would've loved to have gotten like 30 minutes with each person, which would've taken

Julie Harris Oliver: How much did you get?

Meko Winbush: I didn't, like no time. Like, yeah. Yeah. Cause then they, they, they were gonna do another read for everyone. And so, you know, I think we finished and I was like, all right, does anyone have any questions? And no one really said anything. And then it was like, "Hey Meko, we need you upstairs for this phone call with Issa."

So I got taken away, went upstairs, you know, chatted with her about, I don't even really remember what the chat was about. I think it was

Julie Harris Oliver: Something very important.

Meko Winbush: No, I, it was about just how, i, I think this was it, but something about how some, you know, there have been actors who have been replaced based off of how they've performed at a table read. I think that was kind of the gist of it. So yeah. And then, yeah, when I came back down, then it was time to do this next read.

So basically these poor actors had to read the script twice, like literally back to back. [00:08:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: No notes.

Meko Winbush: No, no. So.

Julie Harris Oliver: So normally how would that work? If you didn't, if you didn't have this whole show happening, how, how normally would that work?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, just real quick, that's another example too of a little bit of the difference with a table read and features and table reads and television. It's not unusual to like, if somebody's gonna get replaced, that's far, that's like highly unusual in the feature world that someone's getting replaced.

Cause in television there's lots of network people and studio people present and that's the norm. And the whole idea is to immediately give a bunch of feedback and notes and it just operates a little bit different in features. You're ready to go. You're ready to shoot. Yeah. At that point, everybody has confidence in the actors and any adjustments for performance would just be like a note to a director for when we start shooting.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Now this has come up a couple times. Was anyone in danger of being evaluated and being replaced?

Meko Winbush: I mean, not in my mind. Yeah, it was just one of those things cause I was, I was very, very [00:09:00] confident in the people that we chose for these roles and was very confident in the people that, um, Seth, our casting director, presented to me.

I mean, that guy, he did such a good job. Like the cast that I got, you know, it's, it's, it was a dream cast.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Jeanette, do you remember some of those, like some of the things, the points that came up about even general stuff? Some of those comments?

Jeanette Volturno: Yeah. I mean, I remember after the table read everybody went away and you and I, Yolanda, were sitting in the room waiting cause I thought we were doing a show and tell and we were gonna have all of the department heads do a show and tell.

And about 15, 20 minutes later when no one was coming back, we got asked to go upstairs. And when we went upstairs, they wanted to find out, um, how we felt that the table read went, because they were really judging it, as Yolanda says, from more of a television perspective of really seeing, you know, what the [00:10:00] cast brought to the table.

And expecting them to have gone full out. When all of them just met there that morning. No one had a chance to really talk or go through things. Meko didn't get a chance to go through them with any of the notes because she was pulled away to have the conversation with Issa. So it was, uh, uh, an interesting evaluation for something that wasn't a complete process.

Julie Harris Oliver: Everyone's just doing their best guess.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, no, well, on top of it, I probably wouldn't have had had time anyway. But yeah, in my head it's like, here, let's just read it and let's hear it and then we can kind of talk about all of that stuff. And so, you know, you know, it definitely was sort of this cold read.

But yeah, I definitely, had I known what was expected of me, I guess, you know, I definitely probably would not have agreed to do the day this way. Um, especially without having adequate time to get to know the actors and, and just again, just discuss, you know, all of that stuff.

Yolanda T. Cochran: It's interesting too. Cause you know what, to be honest, I feel a little bit of responsibility, although we were a little bit in the [00:11:00] dark about how that like, this was still early on in the process of, you know, we hadn't started shooting yet. We had been prepping, but you know, this was the first time we were doing this kind of activity. So I think Jeanette and I were surprised about how various things happened as well, including what she just mentioned, which was the intention was we were immediately going to go into the show and tell for the film where you have your department heads, like your GP and your production designer, show all of your, you know, network and studio people, what the film's gonna look like, and all of those things. So we had these expectations. So things weren't playing out the way we expected either. So I, I almost feel, I, I think I presumed Meko, that you were able to have these conversations with cast before that day

Meko Winbush: No.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Without even asking. Like I just thought that you were able to, and so, you know, finding,

Jeanette Volturno: Cause there was an element of all of us being separated.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. I mean, it's definitely one of those things too. [00:12:00] I mean, again, had I known what the, the day was, you know, you can't prepare for something that you don't know. You know, it's one of those things where it's like, all of a sudden it starts raining and it's like, well, why didn't you bring a jacket? And it's like, well I didn't, I didn't know I was gonna need one.

You know, it's, it's one of those kinda, I dunno, it's probably not the best analogy. But yeah, it was just

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you, in that circumstance, like how do you know which entity is the boss of the day?

Meko Winbush: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Because on the film, you all would be the boss of the day. In the show, the show people will be the boss of the day. The network's the boss of the day. So who wins?

Meko Winbush: I don't know. It was, yeah, it was definitely a weird. It's definitely a weird thing.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I mean, for us, we were just in, I think all throughout, I think Jeanette, you'll agree and you can speak to this, is we always saw our jobs as, you know, being shepherds and caretakers of the film and that was it. And to be also partners with the series.

But our entire job was to, you know, take care of the film and make a good film. So that's all we were focused on. And so [00:13:00] whether or not the things are happening for the series side of things, I don't think either of us ever felt like we needed to worry about that.

Jeanette Volturno: Yep. I would, I would agree with that and, and, you know, walking up and having the conversation about the table read and what our feelings were on the actors, you know, I felt that those actors read the script just fine. Did they bring a performance to it that was nuanced? No, because they didn't have a chance to work with Meko. But there was nothing in it that alarmed me, that, uh, made me think that we should have replaced someone or that we made a poor choice on that. And I backed Meko's choices a hundred percent from that.

And I think that's, you know, part of what came out of the table read was they were questioning the decisions that we made and if we were all still confident in that, and, and I'm really glad that we stayed the course.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, having seen the film, your choices were excellent. Like they were great. So I [00:14:00] assume at some point you got to talk to your actors and talk about motivation and

Meko Winbush: Yeah, absolutely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Intent and all that.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, absolutely. Because yeah, I think, you know, I remember talking to Jessica afterward cause I think when she, she kind of was reading it, she was reading it like a bit too, too tough. And it was just like trying to, it's like, you know, and that's just a simple, I mean, these people are all professionals. It's just little adjustments that we can make before or on set. And like even Garret, you know, just chatting with him on the phone and stuff like that and how he was gonna play the character and stuff. And he's like, you know, I think it's just kind of playing it just much just genuine and it was very simple things, you know, just simple conversations and that, you know, we just didn't have.

And obviously, and it is weird, like you're just meeting these people for the first time, you know? And. Yeah. Uh, I don't, I don't, I don't like, uh, I like to know who I'm working with, and it's,

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, of course.

Meko Winbush: You know, after the fact. Like, I mean, I just, I had, I had like a two hour lunch with Garret, [00:15:00] like a month and a half ago, two months ago, and that's, that's the, the lunch I wish I would've had with him before this table read, you know?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, yeah.

Meko Winbush: Because now it's like, oh, we're actually friends, essentially. Like, where it's like, okay, like I know who you are as a person and, and this, and we're comfortable with each other, and there's that trust that's been built. So then when you do get on set, because it's all, you know, being on set, it's already kind of a crazy experience. And then with the cameras it heightens everything. So I think had everyone, or you know, just known each other a little bit better too, it definitely would've helped.

But, you know, at the end of the day, these people, they're, they're all professionals and they came in, that's why they do this job. They're good at their job and, and they came in and did it.

And I know, like, you know, people are even studios and all of that, they're gonna have reservations and, and you know, part of my job is, sort of putting their mind at ease. And the thing is, they don't know me, they don't know how I work and they don't know what I'm capable of, which is fine.

And, and, um, so I mean, I guess there is sort of trust involved and, and them just trusting me and my [00:16:00] decisions and, you know, trusting that, uh, that I know what I'm doing, I guess a little bit. But I get it at the same time. It's like, it's like I'm untested. I get it. They don't. They don't know me. They don't know sort of,

Julie Harris Oliver: But you know what you can do.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. And I know what I can do. So part of it is like yeah, proving that and putting people's minds at ease.

Julie Harris Oliver: You know, I talked with jessica and uh, she did an episode of the podcast.

Meko Winbush: Mm-hmm.

Julie Harris Oliver: And she talked about like one simple note you gave her that made all the difference in her performance.

Meko Winbush: Mm-hmm.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like just saying like, the one thing that really gets in there was really impactful.

Meko Winbush: Mm-hmm.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you'll have to tune into that episode to hear what she said, but Yolanda, were you gonna say something?

Yolanda T. Cochran: No, I was just gonna say, even along those lines of what Meko has talked about of her wanting to establish trust with her performers, I know another, another thing, part of that, just from having gotten to know you and like hearing you talk, is I think I love that you brought your authentic self every [00:17:00] day, but I know that you were also mindful of being protective of your actors and you know, not only your actors, but your entire crew.

And not that you were saying anything that was untrue or necessarily like, you know, trying to, you know, craft whatever it was you were saying, but I know you were making sure that you weren't offering up things that would be negative or destructive for the people that you were working with, or making sure that everything you did would be supportive of them and their work.

Meko Winbush: Sure.

Yolanda T. Cochran: When they come to work every day and you know, you're on, like you said, you're on mic and on camera every day.

Meko Winbush: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's definitely kind of tough. Very much so.

Yolanda T. Cochran: That was something Jeanette and I thought about all the time.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, definitely. Kinda, kinda tough. But yeah, that was just a weird day and it's definitely, again, in one of those, in hindsight,

Yolanda T. Cochran: Is there anything you would've done different that day?

Meko Winbush: Well, yeah, I would've not, I would've not, [00:18:00] well, I would've probably asked to have it pushed later in the week or something, because I know I've said it a thousand times. But no, I wanted to, I wanted to get to know these people before we, we go into it. Like I don't, I wouldn't have wanted to go into it as cold as we did, not knowing each other and then, "hey, nice to meet you. Okay. Sit there and read." You know, even though we're gonna

Julie Harris Oliver: Be vulnerable.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Um, So we haven't had a chance, you know, uh, I feel weird like asking you to do things when I don't know you. Um, I just, I don't like that kind of transactional nature of things. I like to know who I'm working with, but yeah, I definitely would've asked to either have it pushed or, or at least just had that time and maybe just do the read through once.

Like, I, I, I, I really, it felt weird having them do it back to back like that too.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well without any conversation between like, what is anyone expecting to be different?

Meko Winbush: Yeah, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: A second time.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. So yeah, it was just weird. I, yeah, I definitely would never, never do, do it like that.

Um, but, you know, it's, again, it's, [00:19:00] it's, you know, I'm there to work with the actors and stuff, and, and part of my job is making sure they're doing a good job and they need to feel safe and be able to say what they want to say and when they're not able to do that, like that's, that's bad for the film.

So, but it was one of those where I was, you know, I was like, I'm planting a flag on this. Like, I'm sorry, but I'm not sorry, but my job is to get good performances and this is what I have to do.

Yolanda T. Cochran: That was not your job, Meko. I'm kidding.

Meko Winbush: How dare you. I mean, I'd rather, you know, I don't like to, to see people uncomfortable or any of that. So I'd rather be made to be uncomfortable rather than, than someone else, uh, if it's in my power. So,

Julie Harris Oliver: You're advocating for your actors.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, and that's super important. Actors and just anyone on the team, like I'm gonna advocate for anyone on our team. So, yeah. It's weird.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is there anything you'll take forward to your next table read?

Meko Winbush: Well, yeah, I mean part, well this is like, but it's just like, no, like, you know, obviously I stood by [00:20:00] my choices that I made with all the actors, but it's like, yeah, hold, hold the line if you believe in something for sure. Cause yeah, I kind of,

Yolanda T. Cochran: That was a tough day, but you know what, that's fine.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, it's fine.

Yolanda T. Cochran: There's gonna be like tough, there's gonna be some days that just really suck and that's part of the process.

Meko Winbush: Mm-hmm.

Yolanda T. Cochran: And I'm just like, when I look back on it, it was, you know, it was not my lowest day. It might have been Meko's lowest day, I don't know, but like you're just gonna have low days.

Meko Winbush: Sure.

Yolanda T. Cochran: And that's part of it too, and then that's part of the process and like how you grow, and I'm just like, okay, that day sucked.

Meko Winbush: No, it's definitely a, a learning experience about things that I wouldn't do. And yeah, it is part of the process, but it's, it is one of those weird things when you go to work and you have a, a low day, there's usually not, it's not being broadcast.

Jeanette Volturno: Look at what a Herculean task that you know, you went through everything that you went through to submit, to get [00:21:00] chosen, to make the short, to make it to the top 10, to get picked, to go to the premiere, and then literally seven weeks later filming.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: The movie that they had handed you a script that needed to be massaged, adjusted, and, and fixed as we, as you were prepping the actual movie while being filmed and doing it in only 18 days. Most of them were nights.

Meko Winbush: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: And it was really, really cold outside.

Meko Winbush: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: And you know, it, what a Herculean task.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, no, and I will say like, yeah, no, it's, it's big. And, and, and that's the thing, like, I know it's like, what are you complaining about? You freaking got to do like a $5 million movie and all of these things, which is like, it's not lost on me at all like how big of a blessing it is. But you know, it was a massive mountain to climb. And like, it's so nice, it's very cool to kind of look at the finished product knowing [00:22:00] sort of all the obstacles that were there. Um, and the good thing is like, okay, yeah, now I can do these with, you know, such a condensed timeline. So it's like, yeah, you can do that, then everything else, hopefully after that is, is easy.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Without cameras, it might.

Jeanette Volturno: Yeah, you, you never lost your shit. You were a, a guiding light for everybody.

Meko Winbush: Thank you.

Jeanette Volturno: The crew and the cast loved you. You pulled off an amazing feat, creating something that was entertaining and cohesive story and a fun ride.

And I mean, that is just remarkable.

Meko Winbush: Thank you.

Jeanette Volturno: To have all of that pressure on you and to come out like that with never losing it once. Yeah, it's like Project Greenlight is set up to, you know, give somebody a break and, uh, record them going through that process, but it doesn't allow the space for that person to learn.

And if they're learning, they're learning for everybody to see all of [00:23:00] the bumps and bruises along the way, rather than in real life. You know, we would have a conversation and get her prepared before going in and, you know, giving notes to a studio or you know, pitching on something or whatever it is, and there wasn't that opportunity in the show, so it was a very out of body experience in going through the process at hyper speed and being recorded at it. So we needed to create some safe spaces for ourselves.

Not to mention my shin probably has a few bruises on it from when Yolanda would kick me under the table.

Meko Winbush: No, I can't like, yeah, that safe, having a safe space was another thing that was just so helpful, like cause it was just like a place I could go to vent to kind of thing and yeah, I needed that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Was this the first time you worked together?

Yolanda T. Cochran: It was the first time we worked together, yeah. Yeah. We've known each other forever though. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: How'd that go?

Jeanette Volturno: It was amazing.

Yolanda T. Cochran: It was good. We had like, we had like.

Jeanette Volturno: I think Yplanda, she [00:24:00] joined the company and like literally, I wanna say like a week later, I was like, so what do you think about being on tv?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yes. It was basically a week later.

Jeanette Volturno: I was like, what do you think about partnering with me and producing on Project Greenlight? She was like, you know, I'm gonna lean in and say yes, and I was like, yes!

So it was great. It's great to know that you've got, you know, a friend who's got your back, who's in the same position that you are, who's, you know, trying to put the best foot forward for, you know, the team for Meko, our new friend and director, and grow her career and for all the people that we gave the, the chance to, and try to balance the politics out that are going on and, and deliver something on time and on budget.

That's, that's a blessing to be able to do that with someone that you really love working with.

Julie Harris Oliver: Nice to have a friend in the trenches.

Jeanette Volturno: Totally.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Absolutely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yolanda, would you like to [00:25:00] rebut?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Jeanette and I basically were of the same mind about what we were doing. We were given a job and we were gonna get it done, and it was gonna be stellar once we were finished. The end of the story. Period.

Jeanette Volturno: You were like my Jiminy Cricket.

I'm like, can I do this? And she was like, well, let's think about this now.

Meko Winbush: What's, what's the phrase? This is Yolanda's favorite phrase. "Here's the thing." I'm like, oh.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Here's the thing.

Meko Winbush: Here's the thing. And I'm like, I was like, I can't wait for whatever comes next when she leads with, "here's the thing." I'm like, oh, here we go.

Jeanette Volturno: You need to make that, that in neon and have it behind your desk.

Meko Winbush: Here's the thing.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I'll just have a sign.

Yeah, I think Meko is one of the biggest weirdos I know.

Meko Winbush: Correct.

Yolanda T. Cochran: And weirdos are my favorite people in the world. So I knew I was gonna like her pretty soon, and I think she's a huge [00:26:00] talent and I think the world is gonna find out soon enough about it, and I cannot wait to be a spectator and hopefully a partner.

Jeanette Volturno: Amen.

Meko Winbush: Thanks.

Jeanette Volturno: Meko is a visionary. She is a true partner and even keeled and very responsible and understands how to blend all of those things to make a project enjoyable and successful.

Meko Winbush: Thanks, Jeanette.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yep, but mostly a weirdo.

Meko Winbush: Correct. Oh, no, I know. Oh, I know, correct.

Julie Harris Oliver: All right.

Like it's a miracle any film ever gets made. Right?

Meko Winbush: It really is.

And

Julie Harris Oliver: then to direct your first film in those conditions, it's a miracle. Imagine how very easy your next film's gonna be.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, no, I'm definitely looking forward to how easy the next film will be. And uh, I did it with no help from these two at all. I did everything by myself, just so, just so [00:27:00] we're clear all of it myself, no help from anybody. Shot it, I even acted. We just deep faked everyone, but it was all me doing the performances, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Good job. Good job.

All right, thanks all you guys.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Well, thanks for having us back to chat about it.

Meko Winbush: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Well, we gotta get the tea on everything.

Meko Winbush: Get that tea.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's right, that's right. That's right.

Meko Winbush: You just gotta get to like Christopher Nolan's status where it's like, oh well. Like, no NDA.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. What NDA? Yeah. Right. Oh, that's hilarious.

Okay. Bye

Jeanette Volturno: Bye.

Meko Winbush: Bye.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch A Break, Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver.

I'd like to thank our guests, Meko Winbush, Jeanette Volturno and Yolanda Cochran. And special thanks to crewvie.com, C R E W V I E.com, a dynamic platform that [00:28:00] connects people to productions worldwide.

Please check out our website at catchabreakpodcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight Studios and The Other 50%. Our theme music, Mantra for a Struggling Artist was composed by Andrew Joslyn.

Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come back and check us out for behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. Next up, we dig deep into the art department with Martina Buckley, Vincent Rodriguez and Joel Newton. They had a very tough job and they came through in amazing ways. In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.

EP 402: A Lead Actor and the Casting Director

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places.

The presenting sponsor of season four of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot featuring New York and LA Downtown Street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices, along with post-production space dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all their clients. Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need and budget. Find them at santaclaritastudios.com.

We are continuing our Project Greenlight [00:01:00] series where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

We're dropping these pretty fast. So if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 401. For this episode, I sat down with Jessica Frances Dukes, who plays Ayla in the film and Seth Yanklewitz, the casting director. This was such a juicy conversation. I was still thinking about it days later.

Let me know what you think. You're in for a treat. Okay, have a listen.

Okay guys, welcome to Catch A Break. This is the insider's guide to getting into and navigating the entertainment business, and I'm so excited about talking with the two of you today. We have talked to, in the process of this, tons of people who worked on Gray Matter, which is a film inside of Project Greenlight, and now we get to talk to the casting director and one of the leads. I'm so excited about it. So let me introduce you really quick and then we'll get into it. Okay.

Let's start with Jessica Frances Dukes plays one of the leading roles on the upcoming film, Gray Matter, the making of which is the subject of this season of HBO's Project Greenlight. You may also know [00:02:00] her from where she plays Special Agent Maya Miller on Netflix's Ozark. Miss Dukes also is known for Marvel's Jessica Jones, New Amsterdam, NCIS New Orleans, The Good Wife, and many more. A theater veteran, Miss Dukes just finished playing Millie Davis in Trouble in Mind on Broadway and is an Obie award winner for Bootycandy at Playwrights Horizons off Broadway, and a Delco winner and a Drama League Awards Distinguished Performance nominee for the role of Vera in, By The Way, Meet Vera Stark at the Signature Theater off Broadway and more. And we should say you are nominated for two SAG awards with the ensemble of the cast of Ozark.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Welcome.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Julie Harris Oliver: Seth Yanklewitz is an Emmy nominated casting director whose award-winning body of work spans across film and television. After most recently, serving as Executive Vice President of Casting and Talent for MGM Films, Television, and Epics Network, Yanklewitz returned to his independent casting roots. He formed Yanklewitz Pollack Casting, and his most recent [00:03:00] projects include the first and second season of the Hulu original series, How I Met Your Father from 20th Television, the feature films, D-Day, Dead Point, and Incoming for Spyglass, Hulu original feature Crush from American High, which was recently nominated for a Glad Media Award, and Onyx for a Hulu original series, Deli Boys, produced by Jenni Konner, a new Netflix animated series Captain Fall from the creators of Norsemen on Netflix, the Epics series From created by Jack Bender, the creator of Lost and Billy the Kid from DreamWorks SKG and Donald DeLine. And many, many, many more things. And let's also say that you got, was it an Emmy nomination for casting the pilot of New Girl?

Seth Yanklewitz: Correct.

Julie Harris Oliver: We were, um, fangirling about that before we even started because what a cast!

Seth Yanklewitz: Thank you.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Oh my God.

Julie Harris Oliver: Incredible. I can't even imagine it with different people in it. Every moment was so delicious.

Seth Yanklewitz: It was. It was magic.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah. I mean, they're all our best friends.

Julie Harris Oliver: Totally! I want there to be a reunion show so we can see what happened to our [00:04:00] friends.

Jessica Frances Dukes: As long as I'm invited! I just wanna be like Ferguson's best friend or something like, just a fly on the wall. Just watch it all happen. It's brilliant.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yes!

Seth Yanklewitz: Thank you. Thanks.

Julie Harris Oliver: So welcome both of you.

Seth Yanklewitz: Thank you.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: So here's how we start our conversation. We ask everybody what was your first job in the business and how did you get it?

Jessica Frances Dukes: My first job was in Guys and Dolls at Cumberland Theatre, and I want to shout out Frostburg State University. It was the community theater that was right outside of our school, and I learned how to tap in two hours.

Julie Harris Oliver: As you do.

Jessica Frances Dukes: As you do, and I was a hot box girl. That was my first job.

Julie Harris Oliver: Amazing! Now tell us how you got your first job in film and television.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Film and television. Uh, my first job I was doing Bootycandy at, at Playwrights Horizons off Broadway, and the casting director from The Good Wife came to see it and then brought me in for the show and I played, it was a really big part. I was so [00:05:00] shocked, and uh, that was the beginning.

Julie Harris Oliver: Fantastic. And you've been going strong ever since?

Jessica Frances Dukes: I've been going strong ever since. Theater, TV, film, all of it. Loving it.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I think if we can say you just moved to Los Angeles.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I did just move to Los Angeles. It's very exciting. No disrespect New York. I'll be back soon.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, New York you can always go visit.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Exactly, exactly. Broadway will always be home.

Julie Harris Oliver: Exactly.

Seth.

Seth Yanklewitz: So I, my first job, was an internship in commercial casting in New York City. I was studying at NYU Tisch School of the Arts.

Julie Harris Oliver: Go Violets.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yep. Go Violets. And in your sixth semester you get to do an internship and it quickly turned into the receptionist, and then an assistant, and an associate and sort of like grew and built from there. And then I wound up helping find the kid for the Disney movie, The Kid. We had done a search on the East Coast and I was a bit mouthy and [00:06:00] said to the heads of casting at Disney when they were in town for a callback, um, you're missing the kid.

And they were basically like, who are you? And I was like, he's a year or two young, but he's exactly what we're looking for and you guys passed him up yesterday and they said to me like, well, you better get him back in here for the director tomorrow. And so Spencer got the part. I had put him in commercials.

Julie Harris Oliver: That was nervy.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn't know better. Um, but it sort of is who I am for my, my whole career. So, and then my very, very first like true Hollywood job, I was the assistant to Bonnie Timmermann, who's one of like the grand dames of casting who trained me. Uh, I was the West Coast assistant on Pearl Harbor, the movie. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wow.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Wow.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Not too shabby.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Seth Yanklewitz: I got lucky.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's really good.

Seth Yanklewitz: And then I turned it into a career.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you were an acting major.

Seth Yanklewitz: I did study acting.

Julie Harris Oliver: Which is [00:07:00] actually, what could, could there be better training to become a casting director?

Seth Yanklewitz: You know, it's funny, like a lot of people have this weird idea that casting directors are angry or frustrated or upset that they didn't make it actors, and I spent my whole life, as I'm sure, you know, you did, all I wanted to do was be an actor. I did all the things. I went to Yale's summer program and I was the only high school kid accepted that year. And I did Hotchkiss, which is a boarding school summer theater program, you know, everything.

And the end of first semester, I went to NYU and I was like, I don't wanna be an actor. And they were like, great, just take a math or science class and we'll put you into the school. And I was like, I'm gonna stay in the acting program, because I will not take a math or science class ever again in my life.

Yeah. And that was, you know. But yeah, I mean, the day I went into my first casting studio for a commercial as like the assistant, [00:08:00] or reader, whatever I was, I was like, oh, this is it. This is, I found it.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's amazing.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah, I got lucky. Yeah, I got lucky.

Jessica Frances Dukes: That's awesome.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's like, wow, that's my jam.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, so let's talk about this Project Greenlight project and getting the call to audition, I assume. What went into your thinking of, yes, of course I'm gonna audition for that film, but also I'm gonna be in a reality show? Like, what, what was that for you?

Jessica Frances Dukes: Are you ready for this? So I didn't ... sometimes you get an audition in, and you, you look at the people and you go, yes, yes, yes, yes, I wanna work with that casting director. I wanna work with that director. I wanna work with these producers. This is great. And then let me read the script. Oh, this script is awesome. And then you forget to see that it's also a TV show called Project Greenlight. And so when I sent in the audition, I was just so in love with this script. I had no, for some reason, it just went right over my head of everything else that it was. And so my audition was strictly to get the role in the film, [00:09:00] because I loved it so much. I'm a sci-fi freak.

Um, and it was just like, it was right up my alley. And it was one of those scripts that you read and you're like, this can't be anybody but me.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like this is mine!

Jessica Frances Dukes: This is mine. You know? There's so many characters. This is a theater girl's dream. This is it. And then when I got the offer, my agents were like, yeah, so this is gonna be this and you're gonna do that.

And I'm like, wait what? It's a reality show? And so I was completely shocked and, and, but I was gained because technically being in theater, like you're always on. So this was, it was fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: Seth, how was it for you?

Seth Yanklewitz: So I got recommended by someone to the producers to interview for the job and for me, I was like, I've been doing this so long, it didn't bother me that there would potentially be a reality sort of feature to it.

I just knew what I would have to do. But the [00:10:00] idea of working for Issa, you know, and her company, was like first and foremost, a priority to me, just because of what she's doing and sort of her message and the script. Like, I, I got the job and still hadn't even met Meko.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, wow.

Seth Yanklewitz: So I like, literally they were like, it's yours, and come in today and meet Meko!

So, I, I was excited by the idea and part of, or a big part of my business, I love working with first time directors, new-ish directors, right. Because they're so appreciative of the process and they're, they're, they put trust in you that others don't, right. But I loved, like, you know, Jeanette and Yolanda, the sort of film producers, like the minute I met them and I was like, it just like felt right.

And then the script. I was like oh, this is amazing. Like this is awesome. And the, like, this mother-daughter relationship, like just [00:11:00] needs to be told. So I, it didn't, like, I knew I could handle, if that's the right word the reality side. Also, I knew I wasn't really the star of the reality show. Like sure, they were gonna take a lot of footage and I could wind up being in it for three minutes, like, and I was like, okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well depending on how dramatic you wanna be.

Seth Yanklewitz: Well, I just, you know.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I don't know. That table read.

Seth Yanklewitz: True.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, we will get to the table. Don't you worry about that.

Jessica Frances Dukes: The table read.

Seth Yanklewitz: The table read and the aftermath.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I mean, if there's an Emmy for a table read.

Julie Harris Oliver: I can't wait to dig into the table.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I mean, you did that.

Julie Harris Oliver: But let's work our way up there. Let's work our way up. So did it affect how you did your job? I'm gonna ask both of you this, but Seth, did it affect how you did the job knowing you had camera and mic on you all the time?

Seth Yanklewitz: You know, you're acutely aware of a camera literally in your face, right? And look, I have sort of like made a career of coloring just outside the lines sometimes, right? And so, I knew that I just had to be me. [00:12:00] Um, you know, look, casting is one of those parts of our business that if the curtain was truly, truly pulled back, it could be a little scary to hear because we are, we're talking about humans, right? And emotional beings and artists and you know, sometimes we just have to talk in scientific terms about artists and it comes off a little rough.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you censor how, how you talked about it?

Seth Yanklewitz: No, I, I, I didn't, I think I just was like nice honest, you know, like, I, I didn't, I didn't have to censor, you know? I mean, certainly there were a couple moments-- the table read aftermath-- like, you know, and stuff with that where I was just like, the me, the true me of like, this is not how it's gonna happen.

Like, you know, but, but no, and, and everyone, you know, there was never like true, true high level drama, which sometimes you [00:13:00] can get, and especially when you're dealing with studios and networks and different producers, like, you know, you just have to navigate people. Again, like I feel like I've been doing it a long time and when you're an executive, you learn how to navigate people politically on the inside and as a casting director. So like you just in that moment, I just married the two.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Jessica, how is it for you to have the camera on you all the time when normally you'd have your quiet, private time to prepare and to do all those things. How was that?

Jessica Frances Dukes: You know, I, I kind of wanna go back for a second to the people involved and when I look up everybody and I saw who everybody was, you know, I don't know people by names, but the minute I saw New Girl, I saw Issa and I love Insecure and everything she does. I saw, you know, different people that were involved in different things that I love, and so I was just like, I trust already these people, you know, like I've seen interviews with them, like they're my people. And so also coming from theater, the curtain is drawn. You know, there is no [00:14:00] cut, there is no stop. There is no, it is you the minute the curtain goes up and the minute the audience leaves, you know? Um, so for me, it, it was just this time the character was me. You know, there was no cut. It was just, you're always on. And I think also knowing that I was gonna be an example for other people that wanna do what we do, it kind of every day you just had to check your, you know, ego and your pride and what you think you need and what you think you, you know, are used to, whatever, and you just go, this is for a huge purpose. And if I was coming up looking at this, what would I wanna see? And so the job was just to be authentically me as, I don't know how it's gonna come out or what it's gonna look like. Knock on wood!

But, uh, it, it was, it was awesome. There were moments where I was like, oh God, I hope I don't look like a diva in this moment because I asked for that, or asked for this. But at the same time, you know, we're all there to get a job done and sometimes it's [00:15:00] different parts of you that need to get the job done.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and you need to have what you need.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: To be supported, feel safe and do your work.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I can't tell you how my, my mind has been rolling. I'm like, what moments are they gonna pick? But I'm excited.

Seth Yanklewitz: I also think, you know, like, Meko being a first time feature director was sort of it, the, the everyone was sort of a level playing field, right?

Because even though Jessica's acted before, or I've cast before, like we, none of us had done a reality show based on this. So in that aspect, we were all trying to figure out how to like do that and the job, which we had to do. Like, at the end of the day, like, I needed to get the best cast possible. Period. The end.

So, you know, we were all like in it together in a way. And, um, you know, I know people worked tirelessly to protect each other, [00:16:00] whether known or unknown. So, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Was it an additional layer for you? Because you had to keep a studio happy for a reality show.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And cast a film. How did you balance those things?

Seth Yanklewitz: You know, look, for me, my job was to cast the best movie possible with limited resources and time. Like, I don't know if anyone realizes, but we cast that movie I think in five weeks.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God.

Seth Yanklewitz: And maybe six max. Normally a casting job is 10 to 12 and that's, you know, on the short side. So, I...

Jessica Frances Dukes: It was the fastest I had ever found out about anything.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, we also knew. Do you know what I mean?

Julie Harris Oliver: They knew before you knew.

Seth Yanklewitz: I mean, well, for sure we knew before she did, but, but it was very apparent and we can certainly get into that. But yeah, we all navigated it and did it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Let's talk for a minute just about the COVID of it all, cause it was, I understand casting was over [00:17:00] Zoom and then your chemistry reads are on Zoom and you're preparing on Zoom.

How has that kind of changed kind of everything in the last few years?

Jessica Frances Dukes: Uh, I think for us it's, hmm, I can only speak for myself. It has actually made things a little bit easier as an actor to create. Sitting out in the lobby with everybody, um, even though that is the game, sometimes that can be a little, you know, distracting. And you know, you have your characters and, and and, and actors and to shut all of that out is very hard. So when it's just you in your apartment with the script, it's so much easier. Um, and then of course when you're doing a self tape, you're in control of the lens. You're in control of this, you're in control of that.

But the horrible thing is you're also in control of which take you pick. And once you do 15 and you pick the first one, then it's like, you know, that's, so it's kind of easier and harder at the same time. Um, chemistry reads was, I'd never done a chemistry read before, so I didn't have anything to go [00:18:00] off of.

Seth Yanklewitz: At all?

Jessica Frances Dukes: No. No. I didn't even get a call back for Ozark. I thought it was

Seth Yanklewitz: Just got the job.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Out the bag and then all of a sudden they were like, you gotta be in Georgia in two weeks.

Seth Yanklewitz: And that's how amazing she is.

Jessica Frances Dukes: But that was my first chemistry read, so it was great.

Julie Harris Oliver: And how do, how do you do it? Do you do it on Zoom with the split screen? Like what do you?

Seth Yanklewitz: So the technical aspect of it was, um, we were all on Zoom. Everyone's on Zoom and Jessica pins, the, let's say Mia cause she got the part, right? So from our angle, you're looking at Jessica and Mia on two boxes, but they are looking at each other only.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh yeah.

Seth Yanklewitz: On like their full, their full screen.

Um, and you know, to go back to answer your question, I I, by the time I did Greenlight, I had done I think three TV shows and a movie on Zoom, and [00:19:00] except for How I Met Your Father, which at the very, very end, we live chemistry read only like the top choice opposite Hillary for a couple roles because the ensemble and their chemistry, really, for, especially for these showrunners, was so important to see it live.

You know, I mean, but in a weird way, like with all the COVID restrictions, like we're all in masks. We're, we're on a sound stage cause they had another show that let us use it. Like Hillary and Chris come in and like they're both in masks until, like, you can literally say, okay, action, and then they take 'em off quickly.

It was so, the COVID restrictions guy was there, like literally in our faces checking. I mean, I don't even know if like that was better or worse than the actual Zoom. But um, yeah, it was, it [00:20:00] sort of, it, it has changed.

And again, to what Jessica said, I keep saying and keep telling young actors cause it's going around like actors, like to do a self tape as an audition to me, like you get to put forward your best take. No more shitting the bed in a room.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Lucky.

Seth Yanklewitz: Like think about like, you know,

Jessica Frances Dukes: No feeling like, oh God, you got 10 people out there. Lemme just, that's fine. Just leave that one. This one.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah. Or like, oh my god, I was five minutes late and now I ran and I'm sweating and I had got called right into the room and I'm like, wet.

And like, I just like wish, I know actors want the human contact with their casting director, but I assure you, the same is coming from what we see. And like you've now done your best first work, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Do you think this is the way it's gonna be going forward? We're gonna hang onto it?

Seth Yanklewitz: Well, we will see after the negotiations this summer.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh yeah. Okay. [00:21:00]

Seth Yanklewitz: Like the contract negotiations. But I know casing directors would be fine, or many of them. I mean, I think eventually sort of the, the older class of producers and directors will really push to get back in a room. But again, and not to sort of steal the time here, but like on my show, I can see 50 more people for a co-star.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Seth Yanklewitz: Like so many actors who necessarily wouldn't get a shot are getting shots.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yes.

Seth Yanklewitz: Because I can just watch the tapes at night.

Julie Harris Oliver: Right.

Seth Yanklewitz: You know, and I.

Jessica Frances Dukes: And we don't have to freak out and be like, oh my God, I can't go anywhere. I can't, I have to be right here just in case. And now it's like,

Julie Harris Oliver: You don't have to drive across town.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I can be anywhere. I can be in Puerto Rico and send in my tape.

Seth Yanklewitz: Right. You can do like, you know, five auditions for, I just, I just want actors to calm down a little and realize that maybe this could help everyone sort of get a start faster. [00:22:00]

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So just calm down everyone.

Seth Yanklewitz: Just a little.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's gonna be fun.

Seth Yanklewitz: Just a little. Just a little. And like everyone, please don't strike.

Julie Harris Oliver: Right. Right.

Seth Yanklewitz: Fight for what you need, but please don't strike.

Julie Harris Oliver: Also, please don't strike.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's talk about your character Ayla.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I fell in love with her the minute, I think I was on page two. There are a lot of times when we read a role and we figure out who this person is, and there were so many parts of her that were me and the me that I needed work on.

And so it was so easy to fall into her, especially in the middle of a pandemic, uh, where we're, so, we're just, we feel so vulnerable, you know? Um, it was just, yeah, I, I just, it, she was like my skin. It felt great to read it. It felt great to do it. It felt great to drop into it.

And then once we started shooting, I was like, oh, oh, this is gonna be hard. But it was, it was great. It was so [00:23:00] fulfilling.

Julie Harris Oliver: What do you mean she shared the parts of you that you need to work on?

Jessica Frances Dukes: I always like to look at a character and find out, um, what is the most, what is the part of the character that I would never want to expose of myself, if that makes sense. Um, the things that are private to me and the parts of Ayla that keep them protected, that have kept her secluded, that have kept her, you know, away from what she feels is harm, I think is also something that I do. Um, and the pandemic even made that even worse. I was one of those people that I had no problem leaving, not leaving my house. And people would go, girl, you gotta just come on over. I'm, I'm fine. You can leave it outside the door. I don't want nothing to do with.

You know, so there's, there was so many things about her that I just found so beautifully, authentically dark and at the same time light. Um, and I see that in myself, so I, I, I really, really, really felt her. [00:24:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: How like terrifying and thrilling that is at the same time.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yes. It's exposing.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Jessica Frances Dukes: And I, I remember thinking what's her secret and what's, you know, what's my secret, and all those things. And, and who is her daughter really for her, you know?

Um, and for me it was just kind of like a, a deep dive into the soul. And I also was in a space that I felt safe to do that in. Meko made it very, very safe. And, uh, Mia also made it very, very safe to go there. And it was just, with Ayla, I got a chance to go to the darkest parts of me, the lightest parts of me, the funnest parts of me, all of it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, I haven't seen it yet, so forgive the naivete in my question. Didn't she have to play multiple characters? Or did you have to play multiple characters, or you as her playing multiple? How did that work?

Jessica Frances Dukes: All of that. She's, she plays well, mm. She appears in multiple forms of herself, if that makes sense.

Um, she [00:25:00] comes to her daughter in multiple versions of herself. It's almost used as a, a tool, um, to bring her into her daughter's psyche in multiple ways. So I got a chance to play, uh, her in many lights and, and myself in many lights, you know, and in a 1980 sitcom, or a 1950s Leave It to Beaver, or a complete, you know, horror film, and all these things.

So it was, it was, like I said, in the first part of this, it was a theater girl's dream.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Now I've interviewed a lot of the crew people. Every single one of them cannot stop talking about that sitcom scene and how great you were. What, and I imagine that's a completely different kind of acting, so to be playing a character who then is acting in a sitcom, like what did you have to go through to get there?

Jessica Frances Dukes: Well, I think it's like when we audition, you know, we look at the, the script we go, is it multi-cam? Is it single cam? You know, who are the producers? Is this like, you know, is this New Girl? Or is this, you know, something a little darker? What, what is this?

And for [00:26:00] me, I love campy sitcom. So the minute I saw that it was gonna be multi-cam, I thought that, I knew that the camera was gonna be moving and shaking. And I was like, oh, I can completely go wild here. Um, and I just thought about my favorite sitcoms and, and a lot of that character you see in the 1980 sitcom though is my mom. It's really bad.

Sorry, mom.

So yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let the record show.

Now you talked about how they created such a safe space for you to work. Uh, the question for both of you really, how did you establish that relationship with Meko? Cause I know Meko got told she was the director and the next day, you know, you're late. Let's get on with it.

How did you, uh, how did you establish that relationship?

Seth Yanklewitz: So, I mean, it literally was like that fast of a, you know, she, she got told the night before and I came in, I think at like noon, um, to, to meet with her. You know, I, [00:27:00] first off we knew someone in common, randomly, um, who had vouched for me to her. So I think that immediately put her at slight ease.

But you know, I just like looked at her and I think I said something like, we're gonna like just get you the best cast ever. You know, like you need to worry about so many departments, you know, cause certainly in casting we like to think we're the most important, but, but the truth is we are at the very, very beginning, right?

Like, and then all of a sudden, like, the production designers coming in with curtains and you know, like the other stuff to build the world becomes so much more important. But like I just said to her, like, I will fight for you to get the best cast. That's my job. Like I will not stop fighting for you to have the best cast.

And I think, you [00:28:00] know, for a first time director to hear that, like I didn't have an ulterior motive. I didn't have an agenda. Like I wasn't in cahoots with the studio like, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: Right, like who has the power in this room right now?

Seth Yanklewitz: I just want you to leave going, I have an amazing cast, and then my job's done.

So, you know, we just built on that notion and I think we did it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, I bet that goes a long way for you to go in and say, I am here for you to fight for you.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, great.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you?

Jessica Frances Dukes: You know, it's, what I love, what I love about Meko that I saw immediately, we had a Zoom meeting, just the two of us to get to know each other for a little bit and, and, um, she was so chill and nerdy and awkward. And I was like, yay, you're one of us! And it's, it was just so easy to kinda like fall into a, a comfortability with her. I, I saw [00:29:00] myself in her, you know, and so I was like, oh, this is gonna be easy. Uh, and the, we were just both two awkward Black girls, no pun intended, um, you know, sharing our love for sci-fi and all, everything Blerd.

So it was, um, Black nerd for those who dunno what a Blerd is. Everything Blerd and it was just, it was wonderful.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, shall we talk about that table read?

Jessica Frances Dukes: Let's do it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Um, why don't, why don't you, why don't you tell me what happened the day of the table read?

Jessica Frances Dukes: I had no clue the cameras were gonna start right away. Um, I, again, I think all of it was like I was learning as I was going because it happened so fast.

I think my audition was on a Monday. My callback with director and producers was on a Friday. My table read was, I mean, uh, my chemistry read was that next Monday, and then I had a premiere for the fourth season of Ozark. And literally that night they were like, you need to be in LA [00:30:00] tomorrow. And I was like, I gotta go to my premiere!

And then the next day, I flew to LA and it was like boom, boom, boom. And it was like every day I got new information about what was next. And I was like, okay, okay.

And then I remember getting out the car, getting ready to go to the studio for my first table read, cause I'd never even done a table read before. Cause we don't do table reads for Ozark. And so,

Julie Harris Oliver: And you haven't met these people yet?

Jessica Frances Dukes: No, no, no.

Seth Yanklewitz: Nobody met. Nobody had met anyone except they did the chemistry read.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Uh huh. And so I walk in and they're like, can you go back out? And then we need you to walk back in,

Julie Harris Oliver: Back to one before you even walk in.

Jessica Frances Dukes: You know? And but don't speak to anybody cause we wanna get it on. And I was like, oh my God, it's starting. I called my mom and I was like, it already started.

Um, and so I think for me, I'm a big goober, so the whole, I was just like this the whole time, like okay. And, uh, once we started. And we started the table read. [00:31:00] I realized, I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be like, this is, they're, they're gonna film our first time together as a cast and all these people here watching.

I remember also being in the room and being like, oh my God, look at all these Black women that are in charge in here. And I'd never seen that before. And there was just so many things that day where I was just like, oh my God. And then the casting director of your favorite show is just sitting right there and then the director, it was nuts.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's a lot.

Jessica Frances Dukes: It was a lot. And then we did the table read.

Julie Harris Oliver: But also hold, if I may, so you haven't had a chance to really talk to Meko yet about your character or what-- you're just table read, camera on?

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh God. How'd that feel?

Jessica Frances Dukes: Well, here we go.

Seth Yanklewitz: Just to like give background too, to like your viewers, but also like exactly what Jessica's referring to.

So, normally in a table read.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you.

Seth Yanklewitz: The director would talk to their actors, or there would be a pre table read to, so the cast could [00:32:00] meet for the first time, right? And like they could try in, in a, in a movie, potentially. Not necessarily a TV show. There's no like pre table reads, but like in movies oftentimes there's pre table reads, so that didn't happen.

Then also, when we all arrived to, like, wherever it was being held, everybody was like siphoned off quickly and mic'd, and, and literally separated. And like we, I was like, yeah. And they were like, don't talk to her.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Don't speak to each other.

Seth Yanklewitz: They were like, don't talk to, because they wanted to... Look where I appreciate they wanted like natural reactions. They didn't want anything fake. So like, I was like, okay.

And so the casting director comes in, we set up the room, we get everybody ready. And normally like we go, we, our jobs as casting people, we introduce everybody to each other. We make the room warm, we get everyone excited and we couldn't have any of it.

So like it felt sterile. Everybody was like on high alert. Some of the [00:33:00] actors I, I, not to bash agents, but some of the agents did not share with the actors that we were recording the table read. So like some people didn't know that. Right, right, right. So there were things that like everyone was sort of like, what's going on? You know?

So anyway, to go back then, yeah. They didn't get their moments with their director prior.

Julie Harris Oliver: I heard you didn't get one after either.

Jessica Frances Dukes: No, that was it. It was over.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah. When, when it was over it was over. And, and usually what happens is if it's being recorded, like they'll send it around, people will watch it, or like they immediately go for notes to sort of figure out like what worked, what didn't work, what in the script, what are they, you know, and how are performances and the notes.

Like Issa had Zoomed in to watch and she was on a big screen, you know, and the naturally, like you had many voices. And this is when the, the sort of nuts and [00:34:00] bolts of like how stuff gets made, um, starts to, you know, happen and different points of views and different opinions and things get discussed and you know, so yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I hope we get to see all that.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah. Oh, I'm sure you will. I'm sure you, I'm sure you will.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then after that, how long before like you really got to have some time with Meko and talk about?

Jessica Frances Dukes: The next day.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So then you were in it and onward.

Seth Yanklewitz: Oh yeah.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I'm pretty sure it was the next day.

Uh, we had lunch and just sort of, just Meko, Mia, and myself and just sort of talked through some really important moments in the script and some notes that came from the table read, and she was like, you need to like your daughter. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. It was too much, too intense.

And just, you know, she talked through some thoughts that she had, and Mia and I got a chance to really like talk for the first time, like [00:35:00] just about what we thought about the script and what we thought about our characters.

It was a lot of fun. Um, and then we were immediately in the fire.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then how did you form your relationship with Mia?

Jessica Frances Dukes: They gave me the two names of the girls that I was reading with for the chemistry read, and I immediately looked them up and I saw my face and I was like, we look alike. And there was so much

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, excellent casting. Sorry. Excellent casting.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Good job.

And I was like, she looks, like that looks like that's my daughter. Um, and I was like, I mean, both of 'em did, but she really looked like my daughter and I was just like, oh, this is gonna be great. Um, and then when I met her, she was so much more mature than I was expecting, and she was just so chill and so calm and so,

Seth Yanklewitz: So calm.

Jessica Frances Dukes: It was, it was so, it was a breath of fresh air and there was no ego about her. It was just like she was just Ro [00:36:00] immediately, you know. Um, and I'm already a nurturing person and I'm, I'm mama bear among my friends. And so it just, it fell right in for me.

Julie Harris Oliver: And how old is she supposed to be playing in the movie?

Seth Yanklewitz: I think 16 or 17. And she had just literally days before or days after we were gonna start, was turning 18. So like, oh no, it was days before because we could do like adult hours, I think. So, but it was like days before, like so.

Julie Harris Oliver: So she's walked in fully formed, self-possessed adult?

Seth Yanklewitz: Oh yeah. I mean, basically.

Jessica Frances Dukes: She was more mature than me at moments. I was like, okay, that joke wasn't funny to you. It was great. It was great.

Julie Harris Oliver: I also wanted to ask you, Seth, about casting for the sitcom.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And how that was different from casting from the film part and kind of what you drew on to gather those people.

Seth Yanklewitz: So, I mean, I did, I, I've done so much comedy that, you know, it was really just like, okay, this is like a multi-cam and like a 50s multi-cam. Like, so we're really [00:37:00] playing like the, like the stereotypical old sitcom. So it was really, I mean, that was almost easier than

Julie Harris Oliver: Just going this file over here instead of this file over here.

Seth Yanklewitz: To simplify it, yes, exactly. Like, it's just like, okay.

But you know, there were so many factors of, again, budget and timing and location and like, you know, so you sort of just have to go on like your instincts and like, who do you know? And like Wendy Braun, who's in it, you know, she's like actually a mom at my kid's school too. And there were, there were just like things, you know, that were quite easy.

But the art of being a multi-cam actor is very different than a single cam television actor. And usually like, you know, theater actors translate to multi-cam very easily, cause they're used to like the stage and performing live and et cetera, et cetera.

Bigger. Yeah.

Jessica Frances Dukes: And the audience.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yes. And having the [00:38:00] audience.

So, so it wasn't, it wasn't necessarily hard, it was just, you know, we had to get it very right and quickly.

Julie Harris Oliver: What was your favorite memory that happened on this show? A thing that will stick with you.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Oh wow. That's, that's a hard one for me. I think you'll see when you watch it's, it's a hard one.

There were-- every day was awesome. I don't know if I have an answer. Every day was awesome.

I mean, of course like any show you have your, you know, days where you're tired, you have this or that, the night shoots and all that other stuff. But, there was something about this particular project, this particular character, working for the people I was working for, uh, just every day was a dream.

Julie Harris Oliver: You loved it.

Jessica Frances Dukes: I loved every second of it. Including the moments that I was like, I'm exhausted. But it was just awesome.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. How hard is that to switch to, I mean, it's gotta be hard enough to work night, night shifts, but as an actor, you really have to be on.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah. It's treacherous. It, it plays with your mind. [00:39:00] Um, but it also was great for the character, you know? It really messes with your mind when you're sitting in a house in the middle of the night, but it looks like day, you know, because of the lighting and everything. And you walk out and it's pitch black, but then you're getting home at 7:00 AM.

I know everybody in that hotel thought I was a prostitute. I know they did because the people at the front desk, every time I would walk in at 7, they'd be like, "hey."

But then you're sleeping during the day and it's if, if you can, and it was, it was a lot. So you, you, you, you lose out on a lot of sleep.

Julie Harris Oliver: How do you take care of yourself? And your instrument while you're doing that?

Jessica Frances Dukes: I'm a massive fitness freak, as you'll probably see during this. Um, so I worked out pretty heavy during, while I was doing it. Uh, and I kept myself on a very specific eating regiment that I knew would keep my energy going, uh, as well as my body going.

Do you have

Julie Harris Oliver: a team that helps you with that?

Jessica Frances Dukes: No, but they were wonderful on set and, um, everyone, the producers and everybody made sure they had my [00:40:00] meal plan and all that other stuff to just make sure that I didn't crash.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Important.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Seth, what's your favorite memory takeaway?

Seth Yanklewitz: There were like two or three moments where, you know, I had to sort of stick to my guns for Mia, and like with Mia. And I'm glad we did because you know, although I haven't seen the movie, I can pretty much guarantee like the ensemble is spot on together, right?

Like, and, and I, I'm not saying that cause like that was my job on it. I truly, like, I can say honestly, like my one superpower as a casting person is when I really dig in, it's cause like I know that I'm right. Like I just do. Like, I like it's, I can't do a lot of things in life. Like I cannot, right? But I know that, like, when I feel it in my soul and my guts that like, you have to go with this person and like, the [00:41:00] truth is Jessica was sort of like a no-brainer. Like once we like got auditions, so like it happened, right? But like the two girls, there was a lot of back and forth, a lot of back and forth. And we just like said like I am telling you, it is Mia. She is a star. Like, and the other girl was amazing.

And then I personally think like Garret Dillahunt was just-- to have gotten him in such a low budget, like sort of with a first time director, you know, all the things that actors are scared of sometimes, he was just like, I love it. Like I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm into it.

And you know, it was one of those things like, however it comes out, like again, I just feel like we got the right cast. Everyone, like everyone, together. Like this ensemble to me, and I'm glad, you know, I fought where I thought I needed to fight and I use the word fight, but you know, it's [00:42:00] just strong conversation.

Julie Harris Oliver: In a very polite politically...

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.. And not real fighting. It's just like, it's the good fight, you know. The artistic like, like fight that we all in this business have when we're in these jobs.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what I'm getting is you can really read the people.

Seth Yanklewitz: Well,

Julie Harris Oliver: Like there's some intuition that goes with it.

Seth Yanklewitz: I mean yes. I think innately as a casting person, like our job is to read people, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Seth Yanklewitz: But like, again, and I don't know if this sounds pompous and I really don't mean it to at all, or egotistical at all. Like I feel like, like with New Girl, I knew it was Max Greenfield. Nobody, nobody knew who, I mean, not that they didn't know who he was, but like I was working with very high level comedy people. He hadn't done like that type of comedy, and I like, I was like, I am telling you he is this part. But he had never done anything to show that he was this part until he came in and auditioned.

And like, so like that, like [00:43:00] those moments, like I've had a lot of those moments where like the director's been like, I don't think we found it. And I'm like, she's coming in next. And then the person gets the part and it goes back to like the way I said about like that kid for the movie, The Kid, I didn't necessarily know what I was feeling at that time, but it's like, you know, I knew it was Mia and Jessica. I knew it was Garret, right? And again, I haven't seen the final product and like, you know. But I'm pretty sure I'm right.

Jessica Frances Dukes: It was also pretty cool to like, you're not just getting cast as the role. I don't know if you saw this or not, but it's like it was pretty awesome to have somebody also trust that you're not gonna be an asshole in the reality show. Excuse me. Can I say that? Sorry.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, you can say that.

Jessica Frances Dukes: You know, because there is, the camera is on you the whole time. It's like, do you pick the person that's great for the role and also gonna be annoying on set? Or you know, it's like, I don't know how you did that, but I was just like, can he see that I'm a good person? Is that what it is? Like I don't, you know, I think it was really cool that all this [00:44:00] kind of came together, that it was a great cast to work with.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I think this brings us to our martini shop.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Ooh.

Julie Harris Oliver: Which is our last shot of the day. So what I wanna ask you is, what is your advice for people who want to do what you do in the business? And Seth, you also get the bonus of what advice do you give to actors wanting to get in from, from where you sit.

So, since I'm asking you twice, why don't you tell us first your piece of advice for people who wanna be casting directors.

Seth Yanklewitz: Oh, I mean, there's so much work now. Like, you know, I, I, I say just, you know, go for it. Like there's training programs now, which never existed through Casting Society of America. Um, you know, come out here, get in an office, you know, and for sure, just start watching and seeing everything and, you know, developing like your taste in actors.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is it traditionally an apprenticeship type of thing?

Seth Yanklewitz: Well, in the old days you started as an intern, unpaid intern. That obviously doesn't exist anymore. The training program and the [00:45:00] mentor-mentee program set up through Casting Society of America, it, it basically is an education program, like they teach you this stuff that I had to learn on my hands and knees.

Julie Harris Oliver: The hard way.

Seth Yanklewitz: Literally. And being yelled at with staplers being thrown at me.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, the good old days. Oh yeah.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, again, like, you know, there's so much work. So much work that there's so much more opportunity for people and, um, you know, go for it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Do you also have to watch everything?

Seth Yanklewitz: Um, It's funny. So I like to. I have very, very, very eclectic taste. Like I, when I was a Fox executive, Kevin Reilly was the president of the network and he used to, like in big meetings, he would be like, there would be a question and or something and I'd like raise my hand and he'd be like, you have the weirdest taste Seth, but I love it. Because I literally would be watching like some obscure sci-fi something. And then I'd be watching, you know, what [00:46:00] everyone was watching, you know.

And it's funny, when I did Billy the Kid for Epics, we were looking for Billy's mother. It was three episodes. It had to be an Irish woman. And that weekend I had just watched on Netflix, I don't know if it's The Unusuals, but it was basically like kids in England who were like, you know, discarded but working the underground for not Hitchcock, um, oh God. Who's the famous detective?

Julie Harris Oliver: Sherlock Holmes.

Seth Yanklewitz: Sherlock Holmes. And, he had a girl, Holmes had a girlfriend, and she, I like, I was like, who is this woman?

Found out who she was. She's an Irish actress. Happened to be. She was available. I literally like came back and I was like, I found who she is. She auditioned like in Ireland in her parents' house on tape and then like, you know, a director session and everything. Later she got the part.

So like I do watch [00:47:00] everything because like even commercials, like obviously the Super Bowl for me was a Rihanna concert and commercials.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Seth Yanklewitz: You know.

Julie Harris Oliver: Of course. Of course.

Seth Yanklewitz: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Jessica, what is your advice for people who want to do what you do?

Jessica Frances Dukes: Be fearless. Know yourself, um, and why you're special and authentic and different. Um, I do think you should watch everything, especially the people that you wanna work with, everything that they're doing. Every YouTube interview, every masterclass, um, everything. I, I think you need to absorb it all.

And I always tell, you know, my students and, and, and other people that come to me. I say, you know, have the end. Like have the people who, at the end of the day you're gonna say, this was the end game... I wanted to do this, this, that, that, and that. And then connect the dots.

You know, find out what their journey was, find out where they went to school, find out where they trained. Cause you [00:48:00] can be happy working in Texas doing regional theater all your life and teaching at a university and you're an artist. But if you're saying, you know, I wanna be Issa Rae, then you need to take writing classes. You need to learn how to produce. You need to start building content. You need to, you know, build your team. You need to find everything that, that she's done and how she did it and everything. But know what other people's paths have been, uh, in order for you to make your blueprint, and then you connect the dots and you work. Tirelessly. Um, and, uh, every show that you book or, you know, job that you get, it's the icing on the cake, but that is not the job.

The job is actually like the work that you do on yourself to get better every single day, so that by the time the audition comes, there's no thought. It's just do. Um, so that's

Julie Harris Oliver: You're always ready.

Jessica Frances Dukes: You're always ready. You have to be always ready and, and you cannot, um, sell yourself short. Uh, know who you are, [00:49:00] know what you're capable of, and dare to be that. That's my advice.

Julie Harris Oliver: That is so good. Just the, having the vision of what you wanna be and working backwards.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yep.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, Seth, we both went to school with so many people who wanted to be actors who didn't do that and are not actors today. Who, cause there's so much like, oh, I hope and wish that something will happen and it's all gonna be magical. No, it's that what you just said.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah. I remember graduating and my teacher being like, what do you wanna be? I said, I wanna be the Black female Robert De Niro. And I was like, great. Figure out what that journey was. Or, or, or, you know. Or like there were other people involved that I, that I looked up to, um, other careers that I looked up to, and I, it's shocking how things happen.

I remember being on a bus with friends and they, I, I was like doing this game. I was like, top three people you wanna work with. And Laura Linney was one of mine, and two weeks later, I got the audition for Ozark.[00:50:00]

And so it's like, dare

Julie Harris Oliver: I just got chills.

To make the

Jessica Frances Dukes: dreams come true.

You know, they can. It's, you gotta do the damn work though.

Seth Yanklewitz: Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: Be specific.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Alright. Do you have more advice for actors?

Seth Yanklewitz: I mean, I think Jessica really, really, really said it, you know, so beautifully.

I, I, I think it really is the work. Do you know what I mean? Um, and I actually say the same thing. I'm like, If you don't know who you are, right, and if you're not honest with yourself, it is impossible for your work to feel authentic, grounded, beautiful, like, you know, figure out what's not working and figure out how to fix it so that when you go in or when you audition or when it's a producer session and you have to like play, like everything else is you know, setting you free.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. I, I hear all the up and coming actors asking how, how do [00:51:00] you get so clear so you can say it in a sentence, who you are, what you have to bring. I think cause actors are so malleable sometimes, you know, just, I can be anything. What. Throw me in. I can that, that Justin Hoffman scene.

I can be shorter. I can be taller.

Seth Yanklewitz: Here's the thing.

Julie Harris Oliver: You want somebody else.

Seth Yanklewitz: You, not every job is for every person.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Exactly.

Seth Yanklewitz: I don't get every job that I audition for, right? Like I lost a job two weeks ago. Like.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, they were fools.

Seth Yanklewitz: But my point is like, if you are not honest with, you know, your limitations as a person, you know, you are going to be disappointed because you're chasing something that isn't realistic, right?

And that does not mean it won't become a reality. You just have to do the work. Whether it's physical work, psychological work, getting healthy in other ways, or need more training. I, I'm not saying, look, the world has [00:52:00] changed, right? All different of everything is being accepted to be front and center in the camera. So like no longer do people have to hide, but like just be the healthiest, most capable, hardworking version of what you are. And again, like, you gotta back it up with the work. You just do. You do.

Jessica Frances Dukes: And the work is, there's multiple versions of it. So the how, I think, I can only speak for the actors, you know, you're not booking ,take a class.

And I don't care if you have a master's already, you know, or if you went to the best training school, or if you're not booking, there's something going on right now that maybe you just need to shake it out a little bit and, and, and get in another form of training or do, send some tapes.

I, the other day I was like, I'm feeling a little stale. I wanna send some self tapes to a casting director who was willing to, you know, just watch some self tapes that were all very different and just give me sort of a [00:53:00] refresher. And, you know, I think there are some people out there to be like, well, actually a friend of mine, she was like, yeah, you got a series regular, you got this, you don't need that.

And I'm like, but if I wanna get better, which, if we know everything, then we're done. If I don't wanna get better, I'm done. You know, there's nothing else to do and, and I wanna be the best so that the train is never gonna stop. Um, and that's, that's the work. And I think the self-work, again, like Seth was saying like, it's you know, one of my favorite authors of all time is Don Miguel Ruiz, and he has these amazing books, Mastery of Love and, and the Four Agreements and all these different, like, people quote them as self help books, but they're self get to know books in a way that I just, I love stuff like that, you know, where you're constantly asking yourself the hard questions and, and finding the answer

Julie Harris Oliver: To all the work.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Yeah.

Seth Yanklewitz: I mean, that's what we're here for, right? Like all the other stuff is icing on the cake, as you said. Right? If you [00:54:00] know, you gotta sit and grind. Again, not to be cliche and sort of end on a cliche for me, but like it is a business. A doctor like is constantly like learning new surgeries and equipment and materials, like, you know, uh, uh, if you just are like, I did Stella Adler in 1986 and it's 2023, like, shit has changed. Like the world is different, you know?

Julie Harris Oliver: You're different!

Seth Yanklewitz: I, I, I, and that's, that is actually the key, right? Like people always ask me, like how, how, how many chances do you give an actor before you don't bring them in anymore?

And I'm like, unless they physically come at me in a room, until the day I stop casting. Will you stop getting a chance in my room? Like people have bad days. People, like the role's not for them. I was trying something by bringing them in and they weren't necessarily what was on the page, but I wanted to like, [00:55:00] let's just keep, but like if someone comes in and they're like unprepared, don't care, not showered, like rude, like all the things over and over. Well, then they're not doing the work. And then I need to give it to an actor who wants to do the work. So

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you both. This was so fun.

Jessica Frances Dukes: Thank you!

Julie Harris Oliver: Jessica, Seth. Thank you.

Seth Yanklewitz: Thank you.

Jessica Frances Dukes: This was awesome. Thank you.

Seth Yanklewitz: Thanks.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch A Break, Project Greenlight edition.

I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Jessica Frances Dukes and Seth Yanklewitz. And special thanks to cruvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide.

Please check out our website at catchabreakpodcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight Studios and The Other 50%. Our theme music, Mantra for a Struggling Artist was composed by Andrew Joslyn.

Thanks for listening and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. Next up is a quick bonus episode where Meko, Jeanette and Yolanda talk about the [00:56:00] table read from their perspectives. Suffice it to say it did not transpire in a remotely typical way.

In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.

EP 401: The Director and Producers

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch a Break podcast, the insider’s guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media places @CatchABreakPod, as well as all the podcast places.

The presenting sponsor of Season 4 of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot featuring a New York and LA downtown street with interiors and an alley, fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices, along with post-production space dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all of their clients, Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need, any budget. Find them at santaclaritastudios.com.

This season is going to be such a special treat, and I realize I'm totally biased, [00:01:00] but this in particular is fun for me and hopefully for you too. This is going to be the Project Greenlight Season.

Hopefully as a listener of the show, you are also aware of the show, Project Greenlight, and if not, go watch it now on Max . Project Greenlight is a docu-follow show of the making of an independent film by an emerging director. Well, lucky us, one of our founders, Jeanette Volturno, was a producer on this season of the film inside of Project Greenlight called Gray Matter, along with her producing partner and new friend of Catch A Break, but old friend to all of us, Yolanda T. Cochran. This has given us a front row seat to the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes and all the things the show didn't show. Very meta. These episodes are not tied to the series episodes, so you can binge both in no particular order, and we just can't be worried about any spoilers. It's all out there. Listen at your own risk.

For this opening episode, speaking of spoilers, I sat down with the director of Gray Matter. I'm pausing just in case you wanna go watch that first episode before you listen. Okay. Ready? [00:02:00] Okay. I sat down with the director Meko Winbush, along with the producers, Jeanette and Yolanda.

They talked about what it was like to work on this film with cameras in their faces, the challenge of making an indie film, and what they're most proud of through this process. Okay. Settle in. Have a listen.

Welcome to Catch a Break. Today we have Jeanette Volturno, who you must have heard several times on this podcast.

And if you haven't, go back and listen to all the seasons. She's a co-founder of CatchLight Studios. She's worked on over 60 feature films including the Academy Award-winning pictures, Whiplash, and Get Out. Jeanette most recently served as the producer of The Aviary and Songbird, the first film to shoot in Los Angeles during the Covid 19 lockdown, as well as the upcoming film, Poker Face.

Jeanette has also executive produced numerous films including Look Both Ways, Amma, and Night Books. Prior to this role, Jeanette worked as a line producer on the hugely successful Paranormal Activity and Insidious franchises, which laid the foundation for Blumhouse's success. Hello, Jeanette.

Jeanette Volturno: Hi, Julie.

Julie Harris Oliver: Welcome.

Jeanette Volturno: Thank you..

Julie Harris Oliver: We also have [00:03:00] Yolanda T. Cochran, Executive Vice President of Production at Nuts and Bolts, a division of CatchLight Studios. Yolanda's producing credits include the Book of Eli, Dolphin Tale 1 and 2, Something Borrowed, Joyful Noise, Lottery Ticket, Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, Two Beautiful Creatures, Point Break, and The Blindside.

The former CPA is a member of the Academy of Motion Pictures Arts and Sciences, serving on the board governance committee, as well as the Television Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the Board of Directors of the Producers Guild of America. Welcome Yolanda

Yolanda T. Cochran: Hello people.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hello, and we also have Meko Winbush.

Meko Winbush is an LA native. She attended Occidental College and graduated with a BA in art history and the visual arts. After college, she pursued a career in film trailer editing, while also honing her craft as a writer in her free time. Over the past decade, she has edited film trailers for all major studios and streaming platforms.

She's best known for her Conjuring teaser, Hide and Clap. A desire to be creative outside [00:04:00] of the trailer industry led her to writing and directing several short films. She's an avid photographer and she hates spiders.

Welcome to my Spider free

And also we should say, she was the director of Gray Matter.

Meko Winbush:  Yes, indeed. All right.

Julie Harris Oliver: Here's how we start on this podcast. We say, what was your first job and how did you get it? Jeanette, I think you've answered this question eight times on this show. So do you have a new job you wanted to talk about or a new early job?

Jeanette Volturno: A new early job. I did a lot of craft service for music videos back in the heyday of music videos. I would like be meticulous with food. It would be making plays and trays and walking up into the catwalks to hand the people up in the catwalks food and drink who couldn't come down to the craft service table.

So you better... food is important to me. You better have good food on set.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Jeanette's all about the food.

Julie Harris Oliver: Not to brag, but we are [00:05:00] totally doing this with a huge charcuterie spread and wine. So, amen. Take it all with a grain.

Meko. What was your first job in the business and how did you get it?

Meko Winbush: My first job in the business that I was paid for?

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Meko Winbush: My first job was I, I did a 10 week internship through the LA County Arts Organization. It was paid, gave you a stipend, and I did it at AFI with the directing workshop for women.

Julie Harris Oliver: Excellent.

Meko Winbush: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: I wanna talk a little bit more about editing trailers. How do you get into that? I think you're the first person who's been on the show who does that.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. So, I was lucky enough to get a job as a PA at New Wave Entertainment here in Burbank, and I started as a runner and they were doing trailers. And actually soon after I started, they got rid of the trailer department, but they were still doing a bunch of like DVD special features for like Harry Potter and Fast and the Furious, like just a ton of Warner Brothers, Universal.

Julie Harris Oliver: We gotta remember DVDs?.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, yeah. DVD special features. So I kind of worked my way up from runner, [00:06:00] PA to like logger and then assistant editor and then, which is crazy cause the person who was like the lead night AE who taught me, who trained me, was Sam Esmail, who went on to do Mr. Robot, all of that.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Did you have any experience cutting at all before this?

Meko Winbush: I mean, I, in college I had learned like Final Draft and stuff like that and I did like to cut on my own. Yeah. Sorry. Final Cut. Yeah, and I did like to cut on my own.

Yolanda T. Cochran: They always wonder that, like when you say like when you started cutting trailers, like I wondered if you were cutting before that.

Meko Winbush: No, I knew, like I knew how to edit and stuff like that and, and I was obsessed, you know, in high school I used to watch that show Coming Attractions. You guys remember? I used to like record that on VHS and just like, yeah, watch that all the time.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Meko is a BLERD actually's, a BLERD .

Meko Winbush: So yeah, I used to like, yeah, I was, I used to just love trailers.

So yeah, I was there and then there was an opportunity at this company called Budha Jones Trailers in [00:07:00] Hollywood, who was just a trailer company, and they needed some assistant editors. So I, I jumped ship over there and then I was working at this swing midnight shift, like four to midnight. And, after I finished my work, I would just stay late and kind of look at other editors' home lines and see kind of what sound design they were using and how they were using it and just structure and all that. And I just started cutting on my own time and stuff. And I cook this like Friday the 13th TVs and they were like, yeah, we're gonna send this to the, they freaking loved it. They finished it and I got like nominated for it. And, and then yeah, they made it . So, yeah, it's definitely one of those jobs where like it's your rewarded for the time you put into it in your free time, the time when you're not getting paid. And so yeah, I kind of just put a lot of sweat equity into it. It paid off.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. You made that happen.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Yeah.

And luckily I was just in a really good company and place where they're super good at kind of growing you up within the, [00:08:00] and promoting from within. There were a lot of really cool, like editors who I would show my cuts to and who would give me notes and things and stuff like that. So I've always really liked like working with incoming, you know, editors and mentoring and because I, I wouldn't be where I was if people hadn't taken the time to, to help me out. So I think it's important to do the same.

Julie Harris Oliver: That is so what it's about.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, absolutely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Hey, Yolanda, first job and how'd you get it?

Yolanda T. Cochran: First job was, I'm trying to remember, I'm, I have to, you know, pull the cobwebs back. But...

Julie Harris Oliver: it's like in the way back machine.

Yolanda T. Cochran: It was actually, so how Julian and I met, we worked in this particular department at Walt Disney Company.

I left that job and I can't remember if I had this job first or if I quit. I, but I didn't quit jobs at that time without having a job, so I must have gotten the job. Anyway, there was a movie that at the time was called Eaters of the Dead.

Julie Harris Oliver: As, [00:09:00] you do.

Yolanda T. Cochran: That changed to The 13th Warrior. It was shooting in Canada, in Vancouver, and they had, they were shooting on Vancouver Island and they had massive wind rainstorms that like destroyed all their sets. And they had like massive insurance claims and they needed someone to come and process all of that claim.

Julie Harris Oliver: You started out in accounting?

Yolanda T. Cochran: I was in accounting. I was in production accounting ish. And so they needed someone to come do that and I was like, sign me up. And so my first job was I processed six or seven insurance claims because they did them each day because they had had so much massive, like they had, besides all the sets being destroyed, other things had happened, so they had about six or seven insurance claims and they needed, obviously if you have that many insurance claims. And it was a massive production. The entire crew was on distant location on the island, [00:10:00] so they needed someone to come and process those. And so that was my first job to come in, like prepare all the insurance claims to be submitted.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. If you are new to this business, that is a nightmare.

Yeah, so you have it. Let's just explain that. Like you have to record all the costs and all the loss.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, and this is before the digital age. This was in 1990, I don't know, 1995. Somewhere in there. 95, somewhere between 95 and 97. So in order to prepare the insurance claims, you had to substantiate the amount of cost to the insurance company of what that day or the loss cost, and you didn't have digital. And so it was all about preparing photocopies of all the costs that happened on that day. For all your labor, all your equipment, everything. You had to look at the coding. I had to get the ledgers. I had to, yeah. It was weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks of [00:11:00] work and lots of photocopying at the photocopy machine for hours. People would come to the photocopy machine and be so angry at me because I was still standing there. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, if that sounds good to you, we are in desperate need of accountants right now, so sign up!

All right, Meko, we're gonna start with you. Now, you directed the movie inside the Project Greenlight Show.

Meko Winbush: Mm-hmm.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I know you did a bunch of stuff before that, like shorts, and you did the trailer editing and all of that. But I understand this is your first feature film that you directed?

Meko Winbush: Sure Mm-hmm..

Julie Harris Oliver: With people who have been working in film and TV a long time.

Meko Winbush: Mm-hmm.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wow. First of all.

And how did that, how did that change your approach or how did you think about that differently? How'd you prepare yourself to go in and do that?

Meko Winbush: I mean, I think it's, I was definitely kind of happy that I was like, oh, there's all these people whose job it is to do these things that like me and my friends have to do ourselves cause there was no money and we're like painting rooms and [00:12:00] buying props and figuring out all this, you know, getting insurance and blah, blah, picking up stuff and then all of that. So it was nice. It was like, oh wow, there's like people whose job it is to do that and I can, I get to just focus on directing and, and stuff like that.

So yeah, it was definitely like a positive, a lot of excitement and to be doing it in general.

Julie Harris Oliver: How was it to communicate like your vision and how you wanted things to go to all these different people and did you have a learning curve on that?

Meko Winbush: There was a little bit, cause I, I tend to be, I guess I'm not as loquacious as I should be sometimes. So, definitely like if I can, yeah, I don't talk a lot I guess. My pet peeve is people who talk a lot but don't say anything. So, I probably will say two sentences, which, you know, sometimes you need to be a little more descriptive. But no, luckily we hired really cool people that was really fun to collaborate with.

And like, like for instance, just [00:13:00] even like our costume designer, Rahema, like, she was really fun to like talk to and kind of come up with things and she would present ideas cause that's the thing, I can't think of everything, you know? So it's like, that's why you hire these people and who read the script and they come up with their own ideas and they present things to you and you're like, "ooh, I like that, but I don't like this." And "is there, you know, something that's more this," and you know, it's a collaboration, which I really liked. So yeah, a lot of that was just like trusting these people and kind of explaining just the overall look and, and making comparisons to other movies or this or that and just how we were gonna shoot things, how we were gonna light things, and them configuring how to work with it, those parameters and stuff like that.

But yeah, we actually really enjoyed it and like we hired some really dope people who were just, yeah, so fun to work with. And I, you know, I'd be lucky to work with anyone again. Yeah, it was pretty easy to kind of just trust them and like, cause I'm not, I don't like to micromanage, so it's just like, look, these are professionals, I'm gonna [00:14:00] trust them to do their things so I can focus on things that, that I'm supposed to be doing.

Jeanette Volturno: Which is what?

Meko Winbush: Directing . . Just like, you know, working with the actors and prepping and like, see like, working with my DP and like figuring out how we're gonna shoot things and, and I mean, yeah, just a lot to just get in front of when there's only 18 days and stuff like that.

Jeanette Volturno: I can only imagine what you were thinking from the time that we said, oh one to the time that we started shooting it was

Yolanda T. Cochran: Seven weeks. Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: I mean, that's ridiculous. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Was the script done, ready to go?

Meko Winbush: No, not at all. It was like, there were still kind of parts in the script that were like, I'm not sure what's gonna go here, we'll figure it out. Like yeah, there's chunks that, you know, the writer was, God bless him, was still trying to like work out and yeah, so there was, yeah, we were spending quite a bit of time on the phone in the evenings, just on top of like all the other stuff and like still trying to cast and so yeah, it [00:15:00] definitely did make it kind of hard when I was trying to plan the shots and this and that, you know? What it's gonna be like sitting with the locations and yeah, trying to figure out everything.

Jeanette Volturno: But that's probably the meat of the show, isn't it?

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Just like, yeah, the, I mean, I think, it's probably, they made it a bigger deal than it was.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Were you sleeping? Like, what were you thinking, like once you got home and the cameras are off, like what, what were you thinking? Like what were you like, oh my God,

Meko Winbush: I was thinking like,

Yolanda T. Cochran: Or were you spending time like trying to figure stuff out? Or were you just like, okay, I'm just gonna get, you know, tomorrow, we'll be tomorrow and we'll do it again, or

Meko Winbush: No, there was definitely like, yeah, when I would get home, just because I was working with Phil, the writer, like, trying to help him, so a lot of time was spent like talking with him and trying to figure out stuff with him. And then there was a moment where we were kind of dividing and conquering cause it's just like, he's just one person, he can't do it. So I'm like doing these massive rewrites and stuff like that. So I was also trying to like help [00:16:00] him in the evenings and stuff like that.

But like, yeah, no, it was, it was still trying to get, you know, six, at least six hours of sleep or whatever. Because it's just like if you start wearing yourself out that early, like, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. So you gotta, yeah. You do have to sort of pace yourself and Yeah, so I, you know, luckily I kind of know that just from trailers and stuff where it's, it's a marathon and you know, you still need to conserve energy for all the, all of these other things because yeah, you're constantly just making decisions all day.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Were you ever worried?

Meko Winbush: No.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Were you ever worried?

Jeanette Volturno: I wasn't either. They asked me. Did they ask you that? They asked, they asked me a few times recently about like my level of worry and I was like, I was never worried.

Meko Winbush: No, I was never worried either. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. When you're talking about they, now we're talking about the reality TV show.

So you all had cameras on you as you did this the entire time, watching your every move, mic you up when you got out of the car. How was that? How did that...

Jeanette Volturno: It was our own private Truman Show.[00:17:00]

Yolanda T. Cochran: It was really interesting. I, I mean,

Meko Winbush: How many texts did you get about, "what's your eta?"

Yolanda T. Cochran: I always got texts about ETA. They wanted to know, they wanted to know precisely when you were getting there so that they could be prepared to record you, driving, all the things. I was like, whatever it, you know, I, for me, I had the expectation of all of that, so it was like, okay, whatever, blah, blah, blah.

The recording of what we were doing was not something that was a surprise to me and kind of like the extra of like, oh, the minute you arrive, you get the mic on and blah, blah, blah. None of that was a surprise to me. I think what, for me, and I think for Jeanette, you can say you know for yourself, but I definitely developed some new producorial muscles that I did not have before.

Jeanette Volturno: Absolutely. But you also said like without the show we wouldn't have the film, so we had to learn how to play that dance [00:18:00] of we're making this movie, we don't wanna stop and pay attention to the show, otherwise the movie will get derailed. And we don't wanna ignore the show because that is part of the movie. Like we're symbiotic in that.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. But our primary role was to make the movie. Not the series.

Julie Harris Oliver: And I know you both are very committed to having very inclusive sets that are low drama. . Like how obligated to making good television did you feel as you were making this movie?

Jeanette Volturno: I mean I felt like we were in tunnel vision. I felt like I was trying to block out all the stuff that was happening around us and just focusing on making a good movie. It was like, just focus on that and try to ignore the rest. We had a safe word.

We had a safe word so if we ever needed to like look at our texts or something. One time you kicked me under the chair.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yes! I was like, [00:19:00] no, don't do that. No, we felt no obligation to make a good TV show or to not not make a good TV show. What Jeanette and I were symbiotic in our task was to make an excellent movie. And the situation was that we were gonna be making this movie in a situation in which we were being documented while we were making the movie.

And there probably was interest in the things that are dramatic in those situations, being something that is better for the television show than it would be for the film. And so we were constantly managing how do we keep this balance of keeping things in a positive, proactive, forward projection of the filmmaking while we're also being recorded, because sometimes, oftentimes when you're making movies or you're making anything, any kind [00:20:00] of, you know, filmed project, things happen and sometimes it requires a little bit of nuance and it requires a little bit of like, you know, shuffling around and tailoring, like who's seeing what and who's hearing what, and all these things.

But in this circumstance, it was like they hear everything and the minute we'd say something, a camera would show up in our doorway.

Meko Winbush: And I told them from day one, I was, I'm very boring, like, like, I don't know.

Yolanda T. Cochran: How'd you feel about that Meko?

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Apparently, apparently, like one of my favorite words, or phrase is I like to say "it's fine."

"It's fine."

And I guess apparently that is an issue. It's often passive aggressive or like, or that I don't care or whatever, and it's like, no, like it's fine. No, that means it's fine.

Jeanette Volturno: No, really. It's fine.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. You're good.. I don't like

Yolanda T. Cochran: Moving on like,

Meko Winbush: I [00:21:00] don't have to put an exclamation mark on the end of everything. Like no, it's fine. Like what do you ...

Jeanette Volturno: But seriously, we had no drama. We really had very little drama on

Yolanda T. Cochran: We did. Yeah. Had very little.

Jeanette Volturno: But like in all of the years that I've made low budget films, this was one of the ones we were on budget, on time. Yes, we had a couple of days that were a nail biter and long and whatnot. But, for the most part, it was pretty damn smooth. And you got pretty much everything you wanted, like, you know.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did any of you ever forget the cameras?

Meko Winbush: No. Never. No. You always knew they were there, because there were multiple ones.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I keep telling people, I keep telling people recently that my inner dialogue was like, "what does my face look like right now?"

Jeanette Volturno: A hundred percent. I was like, they're always filming me.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Cause you were always eating!

Meko Winbush: There's times though, like people, [00:22:00] people forget that I'm wearing a mic and they're not wearing one. So they come up and they'll say something and I'm just like.

Sometimes I'll just walk away cause it's like I don't want, I kinda like want to protect other people.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I know. I would constantly be like, don't.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Pointing at your mic, shaking my head.

Yolanda T. Cochran: If there, if there was sometimes somebody started talking and I'd be like, point, I'm pointing at my mic right now for those of you who can't see.

Jeanette Volturno: We could probably make a very interesting book out of all of the text chains.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yes. Quite.

Jeanette Volturno: From various departments.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meko Winbush: A lot of, a lot of texting and stuff like that too.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Can we go back to, you said you worked with so many dope people, can we talk about the hiring of those dope people? Cause you did it so fast, but you also were very thoughtful and intentional about it.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Well, you, you, you, I mean, you've [00:23:00] got

Jeanette Volturno: I mean. You know, yeah. We, we've worked with so many fantastic people and we interviewed a lot of great people and we just wanted to reflect the world around us. And so it was really about personality first and foremost. And did they have the vision for Miko, and were they up for doing a tier one?

It's hard. It's nights, it's in Pomona. Like we needed to get people that had the right personality and, and it really just felt effortless. It felt like,

Yolanda T. Cochran: And I'd say like, you know, Jeanette and I both have been in positions to need to gather the, the gaggle of people or who are gonna show up. But in this particular circumstance, it was entirely for us to create those groupings without a ton of input beforehand of who those groupings were gonna be.

And because we are both super [00:24:00] intentional about making sure that candidate pool is a good one in all respects and talented, skilled, representative, we were able to create candidate lists that were great and all of those things without having the barriers to putting that pool together. And so we brought great groups of people and we had really, I mean, there were lots of people in each one of the categories that could have done a great job.

And so we ended up with the best of the best. When you do that, people, that's the thing that people don't understand in the conversation. They think, oh, well, but you wanna hire people who are qualified. Well, yes, exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're talking about hiring in a diverse way.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Correct.

Julie Harris Oliver: Diverse pool of candidates.

Jeanette Volturno: But it felt very organic.

Yolanda T. Cochran: It totally was. It wasn't like, oh, we need one of these.

Jeanette Volturno: No, there was no checkbox.

Yolanda T. Cochran: There was no checkbox at all. It was just intentional selection of great people. And also, like Jeanette said, making sure we were bringing [00:25:00] people who were going to be supportive of and mesh well with Meko in coming in at where she was coming in from her career of making stuff.

Julie Harris Oliver: And it sounds like, which I can't imagine being in this position, coming into the, to do this job of having the confidence, and I think probably cause you've, you're a writer and an editor and a director and all the things so, it sounds like you had a very clear vision and had the confidence to just go in and do it.

Did you, did you worry about that or think about that, or you just, you're, this is my thing and I'm just doing it?

Meko Winbush: Yeah. I think it was a little bit of just like, this is my thing, and I think all the people that we talked to and we hired, like they understood the assignment, you know? And I feel like I'm, I'm pretty easy to get along with and I'm pretty easy, like I can kind of adjust my thermostat, so to speak, to, to, you know, get along with people and, and stuff like that, usually.

Jeanette Volturno: I'll tell you, we had a big sigh of relief when you were the one that was chosen.

Meko Winbush: Nice.

Jeanette Volturno: And we had a side conversation with [00:26:00] Meko before we started and we were like, look, we're here to support you, first and foremost. It's about your vision and supporting you. So sidebar with us wherever you need it. Like, this is weird for all of us having a camera in our face and we're with you. And you know, and so having that trust and that, that open door right from the beginning and never breaking that trust was I think our secret sauce.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. No, and that was like a big part too. It's just like knowing that I had like these ladies in the corner and like who had all this experience too. It definitely, cause you know, I was, you know, entrusting them behind the scenes to like, I'm sure there was a gazillion problems that you guys had to deal with that I never even knew about so that I could just focus on what I was, yeah, trying to do. But there was stuff where it was just like, I want to know how a budget works. And so like you guys sat down with me and took me through every single page of this like 70 something page budget. And like, there was things I didn't even know about. Like, you know, if you have a plant on set, then you have to hire a [00:27:00] greens person. Or if you have an animal, even a goldfish, you gotta hire like, like just things that cut into your budget. And I was like, well man.

All these things that I didn't know about, just how it works and the pace like, yeah, which was really cool cause it's like, yeah, I wanna learn, like, I wanna know at least like a little bit about everything and, and you know, there's some things that line up a little bit more like yeah, I definitely wanna learn more about producing, and not just as a title, but actually like the work and all of that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well then you can make better decisions.

Meko Winbush: Sure.

Julie Harris Oliver: Cause you're not just like being this crazy person and gimme everything .

Meko Winbush: Right. Yeah.

Like making concessions on things and like saving things for like, there's certain things where I'm like, no, I'm gonna die on this hill for this thing and other things I'm like, it's not that big a deal. Like they figured,

Yolanda T. Cochran: It's fine.

Meko Winbush: It's fine, it's fine. It's fine. We're good. It's fine.

Julie Harris Oliver: And how, how do you pivot when, when you have a vision for something, then you realize, oh, I'm gonna have to give up [00:28:00] something else to get that, and I'm not willing to give up the other thing, like how would you make those decisions?

Meko Winbush: I just remember there was like this, I can't remember who said it to me, but there's a thing where the audience never knows, they're never gonna know what you didn't get. They're only aware of what you show them. So it's like,

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, that's good.

Meko Winbush: They're not gonna know. So can the story still function without this?

And yes, like 90% of the time it can. And a lot of that just comes from being an editor. Like, you know, you're telling a story in two and a half minutes, so like, and sometimes 30 seconds, so you kind of know like just through that, what you actually need and don't need.

Julie Harris Oliver: That must make you so much more efficient.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, I think so. Definitely helps. I mean, granted we didn't really have the time to overshoot, going back to the coverage, but I wouldn't do that in general. Like even if we did have an extra two days. Cause it's like, no, we, we have it like let's go.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I was immediately like in this, when we were selecting, like we were in the selection process and I was like, and it came up too during that [00:29:00] actual selection day where we met you guys in interview, but as soon as I knew you were an editor and it came up in discussion, I was like, oh yeah, she's gonna know immediately what we need and what we don't need.

Jeanette Volturno: I think you were always in our top five.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: From the very beginning, you were always in our top five. We were like one to watch. Yeah.

Yolanda T. Cochran: For sure.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, speaking of the competition of it all, I understand they brought in all women directors, which as you know, there's such a shortage of women directors.

Jeanette Voltunro: Oh my God.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I really wanna hire women! But if only I could find, said them. If only there were some out there.

Julie Harris Oliver: If only there were some, and if only they weren't such catty, catty bitches when you put them all... No okay, so what actually happened?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah,

Jeanette Volturno: This is my favorite thing that you always say.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the first thing was before we even got to Meko and we had, we had, we had 25, we had presented 25 people of like the last set of people to get to the 10.

And they were all great, like [00:30:00] looking at all the reels and reading about them and all the things, and I was like, oh my God, these are, every single one down to a person were amazing, capable female directors. And I got so mad because I'm like, okay, why are we saying that we cannot find women to direct?

Because we wanna hire them, but we can't find them. And here are literally, these are only the 25 that they've shown me like, and I actually ended up meeting and interfacing with some other people. Actually, one of the production designer candidates we met with came from a referral from another director who didn't make it to the finals.

Julie Harris Oliver: Gotcha.

Yolanda T. Cochran: But anyway, It's just like, what?

Jeanette Volturno: And they were from all over.

Yolanda T. Cochran: They were from all over the place.

Jeanette Volturno: Baltimore, Minnesota. Like all over.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Such great candidates. And so I'm like, it it, I actually got [00:31:00] pissed off because I'm like, this is so, like, this is easy. Like this is easy. How?

Julie Harris Oliver: It's a myth.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So when we hear it in the room of people saying, oh, we'd love to, but we just can't possibly cause they don't exist, like we all have to just stop that narrative in its tracks cause people just in the room go, "oh yeah, you're right."

Jeanette Volturno: I'll tell you what it is though. It's actors need to give these women a break and sign on to their projects so they will get green lit.

Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

Yolanda T. Cochran: But part of it, I agree, but like the people who are making the decision of choosing who's going to direct the picture need to not say, "I can't find a female director to do this." Because they actually believe that they're not out there. Like they're not, because they'll give the same similarly situated director who is not a female, who may not have done their first feature yet or whatever, or something commercial. They will give that person the opportunity to have their first feature. But they'll be like, I can't find any [00:32:00] female directors.

Meko Winbush: Oh. And that was the interesting thing too. It's like sometimes I, you know, I would look up a director on IMDB, like a, a male director, and it's like they did two shorts and then suddenly they're doing a feature. And I'm like, how?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: How many shorts did you do?

Meko Winbush: Uh, three. Yeah. So, yeah, and I remember they asked me like during the quote unquote, audition, they're like, why do you think you can do a feature? And it's like, well why not? Like is it for that reason? I look at like these other people and it's like, you did two shorts and then you gotta handed a feature. Like there's no reason I can't, it's just a longer, longer short, essentially.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's a long.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. So women, women need to have the confidence to say they can do it. Yeah, yeah.

Yolanda T. Cochran: For sure.

Julie Harris Oliver: And everyone else has to have the confidence to hire them.

Yolanda T. Cochran: And down to a person, like literally, I mean, we kind of, we, you know, we had our discussion about like, you know, the selection process and all the different people and like, you know, we kind of had some laughs and so on and so forth.

But literally I can imagine, down to a person, [00:33:00] working with every single one of those 25 women.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wonderful. And now you know them and you're gonna make more movies.

Jeanette Volturno: Yeah, we've met quite a few of them. Yeah.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. No, and I spent the day with like, that day we, they took us all to Warner Brothers and we were all kind of like waiting for our turn to pitch and like we had all met each other the night before too at this like happy hour thingy. But yeah, there were a couple that like, yeah, I had like some really good conversations with, and it's like, oh, we like a lot of the same stuff. Like, yeah, we're at, you know, before I was like, I would love to work with this person, or you know, and most of them, yeah, I still talk to on social media and stuff like that, and I'm seeing their projects and like, they're all just immensely talented, so.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. And this woman there, there was a, this one director who's kind of doing some stuff who didn't make it to that 25, but helped us find a potential production designer to replace our one that we lost. She's, you know, she's doing stuff and she'll, her, and then a couple other people will check in and be like, oh, "how did it go," whatever, but they're totally [00:34:00] rooting for you. Like, they're totally like, they're like, oh, I can't wait to see it! They're totally happy for you.

Meko Winbush: On Instagram, they're like, how's it going? Blah, blah, blah. Like, you know. They're all like super, super cool. Yeah.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. Love it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Love it, love it. Getting back to the budget size and the indie of it all, like I know you two producers could be producing anything out there. You could be producing a hundred million dollar movies.

Meko Winbush: Facts.

Julie Harris Oliver: Why, why are you still doing this budget range?

Jeanette Volturno: I love independent film and I love giving back and teaching and supporting and having that, that voice, that independent voice. You know, I just, I just love that world.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I have to give Jeanette her flowers on this because this is where it was great for me to really partner with her because this is her jam.

For me. I've done like under a million. I know how to do under a [00:35:00] million really well, and I know how to do 20 million to 120 million really well. That space in between, I haven't really done that much at all. And that's Jeanette's jam. And there were times where it's like, and I was like, really? We're doing this movie for how much money?

And Jeanette was like, yeah, yeah we're gonna do it! We're gonna do it! And I'm like okay okay!

Jeanette Volturno: The other day I saw something of, and it was made for how much, how many times more our budget?

Yolanda T. Cochran: The New Mutants. The New Mutants. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Just, just to make sure everybody knows, Jeanette, you made that model that Blumhouse did all their films for like the teeny little budget you sell it for huge amount of money at the end and

Jeanette Volturno: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, I, I don't know. There's a freedom in it when you know that this is your box and you have to be even more creative with what time and resources you [00:36:00] have. So you have to be very intentional about the decisions, and you have to look at where you wanna put the money to make the most bang for the buck on the project.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. There's a, there's, a saying, or like a thing where it's like sometimes when you have limitations, it forces you to be more creative.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Meko Winbush: So it's just like, even as a photographer, there's some days where I'll just bring like one lens, and even though I'll, like, I'll be out and I'll be like, dang, I wish I had this.

But no, you still make it work and it forces you to be more creative and get shots that you probably wouldn't have gotten if,

Yolanda T. Cochran: if you had the options.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it definitely forces you to be more creative, and I think that's cool.

Jeanette Volturno: And what you and Byron did in editing took it to a whole other level.

And then what sound design did.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. Oh my god, yes.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, absolutely, man, Byron's now a BFF. Byron was our editor, and like, yeah, we're BFFs now.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: Editor.

Meko Winbush: Yep. I call him a editor. I just call him editor, like making like Instagram stories editor. I had friends who were like, wait, do you really [00:37:00] call him that all the time or? It's like, well, sometimes.

Julie Harris Oliver: You know, that's really important to learn people's names.

Meko Winbush: He's, he's like, great sense of humor and like, yeah, we spent all summer in a bay together,

Julie Harris Oliver: friends now.

Meko Winbush: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I can't believe how disciplined you were and how like you were not itching to actually cut yourself.

Meko Winbush: Oh no. There were moments the first week.

Jeanette Volturno: I almost took a bet on that.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Meko Winbush: No, the first week cause I'm not used to, like trailer editors are just insanely fast cause you just have to be, so it's just a different, you're just like the, the sprinters of the editing world and, and yeah. Feature editors, again, it's like a marathon and, you know, it's more meticulous. And so, so that first week I would ask him to do something and, I was just like, wait, what's going on? I was like, oh.

So it took, you know, a week for me [00:38:00] to learn. I was like, oh, this is, this is just how,

Yolanda T. Cochran: Just a different pace.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Different.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like why's it not done yet.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Yeah. So once, once I realized that like it was fine, so I would just chill on the couch.

Yolanda T. Cochran: But even still of like, not actually like putting your hands on the keyboard.

Meko Winbush: I would stand up and go look over his shoulder at something on the screen. I'd put my hands behind my back so I wouldn't wanna like grab the mouse.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Right. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is it like watching your parents try to email?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Meko Winbush: I looked at your questions last night and I typed quick little, you know, whatever cause sometimes you just forget things and I forgot my laptop and I called my dad. Like can you just email me that? It's on my desktop. And he thought I meant like, the, the desk. I was like, Dad, the desktop! It was the most frustrating [00:39:00] five minutes. Like I was like, are you scrolling? Dad, the desktop! There's a file on there. And my dad's a computer guy. So it's like, Dad, no the laptop. What are you? Yeah, so ,

Julie Harris Oliver: That's adorable.

Meko Winbush: Yeah he was trolling me.

Julie Harris Oliver: Alright. So how did the movie turn out?

Yolanda T. Cochran: It turned out great. Yeah. Super proud of it. I think it's really great.

Jeanette Volturno: I really, really wanted to have a theatrical release.

Julie Harris Oliver: Are they showing it on HBO Max?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Well, it's HBO Max. We will have a small theatrical release. There will be a small one, but

Jeanette Volturno: I just want, I want the world to demand it because I want them to see what Meko did in a Herculean effort with a tiny amount of time, with the amount of pressure with all those cameras and everything on you.

I am beyond impressed at how this turned out, and I really want it to be [00:40:00] received theatrically in the way that it should be.

Yolanda T. Cochran: That's all accurate.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yolanda plus ones.

100. Underlined red. Okay. Let's talk a little bit more about this process. Is there anything you wish you had known going in that you maybe learned the hard way that would've been better?

Yolanda T. Cochran: That's a Meko question. That's a you problem.

Meko Winbush: There's definitely, I wish, you know, when you, people talk about like, yeah, you know, you're on camera being filmed, I did not realize it would be as invasive.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Would you have done anything different though?

Meko Winbush: No, I wouldn't have

Yolanda T. Cochran: You're so you.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, like, like obviously like, you know, and there was a moment where I almost like pulled the, pulled the plug where I was just like, I don't know if I wanna, you know, be filmed all the time.

But it's just like, this is such a good opportunity and like why would you, how could you not? And yeah, and, and all that to say like, obviously like, it is like a [00:41:00] massive blessing. So it's like, I, I don't want to complain, but like, at the same time, it's just, it's not what you expect and it is super invasive and, and especially like someone who's kind of like, I guess a little private and a little introverted, or I don't know, am I?

Yolanda T. Cochran: No.

Jeanette Volturno: No.

Meko Winbush: I don't know.

Yolanda T. Cochran: You're an intro, intro extrovert.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Yeah. So that's kinda

Julie Harris Oliver: Should we do a Meyers Briggs test?

Meko Winbush: Yeah.

Yolanda T. Cochran: You don't have to say what it was, but did you ever say anything that, you know got captured on camera that you wish you hadn't said?

Meko Winbush: I don't remember.

We were moving so fast.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah.

Meko Winbush: I would just delete stuff at the end of the night. Like, don't need it. Delete.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, that's impressive. I would still be hanging on too whatever I said.

Meko Winbush: There's small things like, and part of it too is just knowing how I am, like, I don't say too many off-color things in general, but like, there's times where, kind of wish I would've said like there's times where I'm like...[00:42:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm curious cause I was obsessed with the last season, which now is like, what five, six years ago?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Effie Brown and the conversation with Matt Damon heard around the world.

Jeanette Volturno: Yep.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you feel any responsibility to, or a, did that worry you about doing. Did it, did it make you feel like you could make this kind of a corrective experience?

Yolanda T. Cochran: I actually, I'm glad you brought that up.

Yeah. I actually want to give a major thank you to Effie Brown.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Yolanda T. Cochran: For that, because, were it not for her in that season, I would've been far less prepared for being in this production and the impact of that light and those cameras on you. And especially now, because that, that last season was probably the first one where there was kind of like where social was really, you know, the prior seasons, there [00:43:00] wasn't really that much social and blah, blah, whatever. Long way to say that I was every, again, I, my inner dialogue was what does my face look like right now? Like I was constantly, constantly calibrating what my expression was, how I was speaking to people, the actual words that were coming out of my mouth. Everything. Constant. I never let that guard down ever

Julie Harris Oliver: Cause we saw how much this can impact your life.

Jeanette Volturno: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you never hesitated when I asked you to partner with me and produce this with me.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I did not.

Jeanette Volturno: You did not hesitate, you said yes immediately.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Cause it was like the, the thing that I had conversations with a few people about over time who struggled a little bit with it, about being, you know, followed and all the things is, yes, this is hard, and yes, it's putting a lot of pressure on you and it can negatively [00:44:00] impact you.

However, it is also a tremendous opportunity to, for people around the world to see what it is that you are capable of doing.

Jeanette Volturno: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Amen.

Meko Winbush: I mean, that was my hope too, was just because I loved, growing up, watching all those behind the scenes,

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Meko Winbush: Like making of this and making of that. And like, I mean, I've watched so many James Cameron, like Terminator 2 and Alien, all of that stuff. And I thought it could be just a really cool opportunity for, you know, the young Meko, the, you know, 12 year old Meko watching that, where it's like, oh, here's someone who looks like me and here's like...

Yolanda T. Cochran: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Meko Winbush: And also there was always that thing too. You're like, what are, who are all these people on set? Like what?

Yolanda T. Cochran: What do they do? Yeah.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. And it was such a good opportunity to like, for them to kind of show what all these jobs are like, I mean, I saw them interviewing like our gaffer, Matt Hadley, who's just this mad scientist. He had everything kind of honed in on his, [00:45:00] on his laptop. And, that, whatever he does is so fascinating.

And then just even that where it's like, oh, you're into fashion. Well, here's what, here's what a costume designer does, and like this is what they do, and how they approach character, and what they're wearing. And oh, maybe you're into interior design, like you can make a job out of working, you know, with a production designer and their team, like all of these things.

And it's like, you know, I was hoping that would be the focus and not, I mean, 85% of things went really well and it's like, and instead it's like.

Yolanda T. Cochran: 90, I think 90.

Jeanette Volturno: 90. Probably.

Meko Winbush: It's like, like focus on that as opposed to like the 10% that didn't. I mean there's a reason people love the Great British Bake Off cause it's like everyone's so nice and like happy and

Julie Harris Oliver: It's so nice

Meko Winbush: And it's like guess what? That show functions great without stupid drama and whatever.

Jeanette Volturno: To be clear, we did film all of that stuff. They did interview everyone.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yes they did. It is content.

Jeanette Volturno: Roll with a positive on everything.

Yolanda T. Cochran: It could be the story. It could. It could be, could be.

Julie Harris Oliver: But we're focusing this whole season [00:46:00] of Catch a Break on all the things that went great, so.

Jeanette Volturno: That's right.

Julie Harris Oliver: We're gonna get it.

Yolanda T. Cochran: The audience is gonna get it.

Meko Winbush: My brother texted me yesterday, a picture of him and Matt Hadley. I guess they're on a project together right now.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Oh, that's great.

Meko Winbush: Oh my God!. Tell him I love him.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I know. Love Hadley.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, tell me what, cause I know there were some hard things to do. Tell me what you are most proud of having done the show.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Love that.

Meko Winbush: Most proud of having done the show?

Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm.

Meko Winbush: I think a number of things.

I mean, obviously like I'm proud of like just directing a movie in 18 days or seven weeks of pre-pro, but like also just like

Julie Harris Oliver: Pretty good.

Meko Winbush: So freaking proud of my team again, they understood the assignment and I don't even know if the camera's capture, I mean, how hard they, they freaking worked and they had such a good attitude about it and they just wanted to help like the project and like they really gave 110%.

Yeah, it just makes me really proud. Like just them, the people who were there on set when, like cause and you know some of the shoots were rough and it was cold and like they [00:47:00] still, they did their job. And then just even on the post side, like man, our sound, our sound department, I mean, they were just the dopest dudes, like our composer. He had such a short night to really compose. Our sound designer, he's kind of a nerd. He's just like, awesome. And just like,

Julie Harris Oliver: In a good way.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. So dry. He, but yeah, Jeff Pitts, he's just like, he really just had a lot of fun, sound designing it, and you could tell he put so much thought into everything, like he could've easily just kind of phoned it in and he didn't.

And, and same with like our mixer, Caleb, and obviously our editor Byron, he just put so much time and effort into it. And yeah, I mean, there's just so many, so many people.

Yolanda T. Cochran: And we should say like sound, we always knew sound was gonna be a major component of the movie experience of this, so that was big.

And Meko's a big sound person anyway, so.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. But yeah, just super proud of just every, every single name that you see.

Jeanette Volturno: I mean, every single one of those people had to not only [00:48:00] sign up to do a low budget indie movie, but have a camera and mic in their face while doing it and drive to Pomona, be up all night. I mean like it just, that was a lot to ask.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, it was a lot. Martina and her team, like they would like finish a set as we were arriving to it and then they would move on to the next location. And then it was just kind of this,

Jeanette Volturno: And she picks up food.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yes, yes.

Meko Winbush: And then she's just, she's just so funny. I love all Martina's little sayings too.

Jeanette Volturno: That department learned all about it.

Meko Winbush: "It's a dandy" and "no bother."

Jeanette Volturno: Right, right.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. No, we, yeah, it just amazing, amazing people to just be super proud of, if anything.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you, Yolanda?

Yolanda T. Cochran: I am super proud. There's a thing of, like, for me, I don't know if this applies to everybody else, but for me personally, having done this for, you know, a long time and having confidence in [00:49:00] what I was doing or my abilities or my contribution or my value to the work and what was being done. You know, having that confidence in yourself, but not always having that affirmed. And I feel like this was a great opportunity for me to understand what I could do and understand what I know. And what I mean by that is, and it's, this has come clear to me in the recent interviews that I've done for the series, which is: I had tremendous confidence in myself, in Jeanette and in Meko.

And most particularly among that, Meko. Like Jeanette and I, whatever, like I had complete confidence in Meko. And so a lot of the things that came up were like, oh, is this gonna be a problem, how are we gonna do this, and da da da. Are we gonna be able to make it or whatever. And the reason I asked [00:50:00] about being worried is cause I was asked if I was worried, and there was never a time that I was worried.

And often my answer was because I had confidence in my filmmaker. I knew what filmmaker I had, and so I was never worried. And the fact that I trusted me understanding that I knew that I had the right person and us get the result that we got. And it was basically, that was confirmation and me being like, yeah, we got it. We're good.

I'm super proud of that.

Julie Harris Oliver: So the absolute opposite of imposter syndrome.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like I told, yeah, we're good. I know we're gonna do it. You told me in some parts of the process it would be like, oh, what about this? What was, no, you gave us a, you gave us a task. You gave us the benchmarks, we're gonna do it, we're gonna meet it, it's gonna be fine.

And we did.

Jeanette Volturno: I love, I love the fact that for 90% of it, there was no drama on [00:51:00] our side.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: And we actually, from something that was a half baked idea, we leaned into it as much as we could. We hit the ground running. We didn't pay attention to all of the naysayers on the outside who were, you know, oh, is it good enough? Are you gonna make it? Are you gonna get there? Or whatever. And we hit this tiny little bullseye.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: You take something that was a fun watch that I am proud of.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: That I feel is what is more than what we set out to make and is a great calling card for you. Like I, I, I am so proud that, that we were able to get through and I don't think there was anything that I did that I regret or was embarrassed about.

I think I tried to be as real as possible with that and

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: And I actually loved working with both of you. Loved, loved, loved. Same with both of you.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Same. Likewise.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, [00:52:00] that's what I say. I was like, oh, I got, I got like two more big sisters out of this. Yeah. it's been such a joy to like learn from both of you.

And it's funny, like listening to you like both kind of say that, especially you, Yolanda, about just like being in that place where you're like confident with yourself and stuff like that. I had a, one of my really good friends just a week or two ago we talked to a buddy's Avid class. He teaches in college in Colorado. One my friend who just loves trailers, he's been doing it for 15 years. He's really good. This guy's Steve Pinto, but you know, he's talking to the class. One of the things he said is he's like, look, you know, it took me a long time to get to, to build up my skill and this and that and get good at this, and now I just get to enjoy being good at it.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Mm-hmm.

Meko Winbush: And I feel like that's kind of where you're at. And like that's kind of where that benchmark that I also want to hit for myself at some point, where it's like, I mean, granted, I'm a perfectionist and nothing's ever gonna be good enough, but I wanna get to,

Yolanda T. Cochran: Don't talk about the box!

Meko Winbush: I'm feeling triggered right now.

But it's like, yeah, [00:53:00] get to that point too, where it's like, oh, now I can just enjoy being good at, really, really good at this for the next til forever.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Jeanette Volturno: Well, for anyone who works with you in the future, Miss Meko, you are a fantastic team player.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, I think, I mean, I, they at some point

Meko Winbush: Have to be as the youngest of four.

That was one of the big things. Yeah. Like figure it out. Like I would tell myself to figure it out.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I think somebody asked both of us at one point, it was like, if you're not hire, it was, it was at the end of prep, I think, and we were at Occidental Studios, and they were asking us about Meko and we were like, if people aren't clamoring to hire Meko Winbush to direct stuff, then they're freaking stupid

Jeanette Volturno: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. It was, it was an odd process because they, they would make you question yourself every day. It was, that was the hardest thing.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Right.

Jeanette Volturno: So I I, I would say like as a process, it wasn't a documentary, it [00:54:00] was this exploratory deep dive into your psyche of like questioning everything that you did that day which was an odd, reflective place to be.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Right. Mm-hmm.

Jeanette Volturno: That's what you see in the show. That's how they approached the show, not as a documentary style.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. Yeah, and I like what you said too about like, I can't remember exactly what you said, but I was thinking, like I've said, like I was constantly monitoring what I was saying and the words coming out of my mouth, but also I was actively making an effort to be my authentic self as well. So that's a weird.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's a lot of mental.

Yolanda T. Cochran: That's a lot. I was exhausted. I was exhausted every day because of the, I was doing mental gymnastics all day long. Every day on top of just doing the job. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot. God.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. All right. Our two final questions for all of you. What is a favorite memory you have of this production? If it was like a great laugh [00:55:00] or something sweet or something, something enraging you will never forget or let go of.

Jeanette Volturno: I loved when Danny took the camera from Jeremiah and turned it on him in

Yolanda T. Cochran: God. That was great.

Meko Winbush: That was fun.

Jeanette Volturno: That was so.

Meko Winbush: What did he say to him it was, cause the, the thing they always say to you

Yolanda T. Cochran: No. Can you repeat the question in the answer?

Meko Winbush: Andy, our first AD onto

Yolanda T. Cochran: The VP of the doc series.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. He was one of the camera guy and actually he's the one, like Jeremiah Smith is like one of the dopest.

Jeanette Volturno: He's awesome.

Meko Winbush: He's on Avid Elementary right now.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah, he's scripted. He's a cameraman who should be working in DP on his own.

Jeanette Volturno: We're gonna, we're gonna snag him.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. He's so good. And just such a good attitude, just like good people. But yeah, the AD took the camera from him one day.

Yolanda T. Cochran: That was great.

Meko Winbush: Turned it on him and started asking him questions and yeah, giving him the whole, "repeat, you know, put the, question [00:56:00] in the answer."

Jeanette Volturno: Where, where, like, where Jeremiah started wearing the piece of tape that said, "it's weird for me too." Mm-hmm. .

Meko Winbush: That was a, that was a good one.

Yolanda T. Cochran: What was your favorite?

Meko Winbush: That was pretty funny. I really liked shooting the sitcom set. That was a lot of fun.

Jeanette Volturno: That was the best.

Julie Harris Oliver: Everybody has talked about that being the best thing.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, it was really cool cause before we shot, like, the scene from the, the movie, you know, the, the league watches the sitcom all the time, so we had a sitcom family act out and it, it felt like a sitcom

Jeanette Volturno: They were real sitcom actors.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. They were so good. So that was like super fun.

That was really cool. I really liked shooting the bus stop scene. Jessica and Garret, cause they were just hilarious. Yeah. That was a lot of fun. They were just like, so friendly and like, they just had really good chemistry too. And oh, that was a lot of fun. And then, and it was really cool like when Gina came to set, that was kind of cool.

Gina Prince-Bythewood, she's like one of the [00:57:00] mentors for the, through the, through the show and she came to set one night, which was super dope cause she was in the midst of finishing The Woman King and was still making time to like, you know, cheer me on and call me and text me and, and all of these things.

So, and as someone who's like Love & Basketball was like, that movie was my jam. It's still like, yeah. I'm like, oh my God. She's like showing up to my set and like, yeah, it's kind of cool.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Were you dying that she was like texting you and coming to

Meko Winbush: Oh no. Yeah, it's so weird that I'm like, yeah, it's so bizarre and like, because we very much like kind of similar personality too and part of it, like she used to be a basketball player and I was a basketball player too, so, you know, her advice, well was kind of just walking onto the, onto the set, like you walk onto the court, you know, all that kind of confidence and swagger and stuff like that.

And so she, yeah, she was really cool. And then obviously like Kumail Najiani was another one of the mentors too.

Jeanette Volturno: All of our advisors were

Yolanda T. Cochran: Great. Like they were really great.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, like all of them, like [00:58:00] between the three of them, they gave me such sound advice and just even like doing the photo shoot. The promotional photo shoot a couple weeks ago with the three of them. Like it was just super interesting. Like at one point they were all naming like their top five movies and another time they were talking about line reading and whether or not they like it.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Meko Winbush: It was just like super interesting hearing each opinion and like.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah.

Meko Winbush: Just because they've all, yeah, I don't know. They all, yeah, the, if the one, I mean obviously there are a lot of really good things that came out of this, but like having the three of them as mentors as well was definitely, definitely awesome. And I got like a lot of really good advice from all three of them, so.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you have a moment where you were like, oh my God, my dream is coming true. Like, did you have one of those out-of-body?

Meko Winbush: Yeah. No, definitely. Well, I told these guys, like when they called my name, like when Issa said my name, I pretty much blacked out. That was on a Wednesday night, and like, I pretty much was in this like blackout state. From there, like [00:59:00] Thursday, like I woke up to all these texts and then like all of a sudden I woke up again and I was at a bar with a drink in my hand.

I'm like, when did I get here? And then I was somewhere else with another drink and like my friends are there hugging me. And then, and then, and then the next day, Friday we were already like,

Jeanette Volturno: We're like you're late.

Meko Winbush: We were already starting , you're already like hiring like senior director, like interviewing, casting directors. Like literally in, in like, 36 hours.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Immediately. Yeah.

Meko Winbush: It was, yeah. So like, yeah, I almost didn't have time to pinch myself. But yeah, there were definitely moments, yeah. Being on set and then, just moments of surreal where I'm like, oh my God, this is like, I can't believe this is happening. So that was the other thing that made it work.

I wasn't like super, super stressed cause it's like, yeah, I think things happen when they're supposed to happen and, and had this happened like 10 years ago, I might not have been ready. But you know, at this point just having had a lot of life experience and been through a lot of hardship and this and that and you able to deal with certain like stress and this and that, you know, [01:00:00] in a good way, if that's a thing.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like this is your moment and you might,

Meko Winbush: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So definitely like still pinching myself and like.

Jeanette Volturno: You were meant to do it.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's incredible. It's great. Yeah.

Okay Yolanda, beat that.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Okay. I'm gonna cheat. I have three moments. So Meko knows how weird I am about, I just because of trying to understand how to navigate life in the, in the valleys and the, you know, the, the highs and all of that.

Like, I've always tried to, or at least I've learned to be an observer and kind of more like, I try to, I'm not zen, I'm not Buddhist or anything, but like be zen about like, shitty shit. And so our worst day on set was this particular day shooting the end of the movie. And it was terrible. It was the, it was my low, it was the worst day of the shoot [01:01:00] for me, no question, because saying, because I said I literally wanted to dig a hole and bury myself in it like that, for real.

But we actually made it through the day, like we made the day. And so,

Julie Harris Oliver: And the end works.

Yolanda T. Cochran: And it works. And so I was like, oh my God. Thank God. Thank God it all survived. Survived, yes. So thinking about how bad that was, reminded me of my next runner up favorite memory was the Red Room.

So Meko finished her director's cuts of the movie.

Meko Winbush: Oh no. Are you gonna say this?

Yolanda T. Cochran: And it was. Like, you know, everybody's, I was like, okay, we're, oh, everybody's excited. Like, oh my God, we're finally gonna see the movie. Like, what is it gonna be like, like what's gonna be the reaction?

Jeanette Volturno: We were, just set it up for [01:02:00] everybody.

We were completely shut out.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. So, for guild rules in the Director's Guild, the director has a private time to cut their movie without interference and anybody seeing anything. So then when they screen their director's cut, it's the first time you're seeing, so it's like a big buildup and we're all there and like it's a, whatever, a group of folks.

And we went to, I think it was William Morris, and it's like, oh my God, we're gonna see the movie. And we, we screened the movie and it, and then it ended and there was dead silence. There was dead silence.

Julie Harris Oliver: In the room?

Yolanda T. Cochran: In the room.

Jeanette Volturno: So I turned around.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Nope, but I, it was just like,

Julie Harris Oliver: cut?

Yolanda T. Cochran: No, we're not gonna say.

Every once in a while she said, submit this to, to make me laugh, but,

Meko Winbush: Oh, this is where it happened.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Let's just suffice to [01:03:00] say that Meko screens, her director's cut. And there was, you could hear a pin drop in a carpeted room, which was,

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you wanna die?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Which was super weird and odd.

Meko Winbush: Just weird.

Yolanda T. Cochran: But me being the crazy person that I am, I take great gleam, and amusement out of this memory. I love it. And it will be my, my favorite memories of this movie forever.

Meko Winbush: Yeah, it was weird. I definitely couldn't wait to get

Julie Harris Oliver: So wait, what happened?

Yolanda T. Cochran: Well, eventually people started talking, but for a long while it was dead silent.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm gonna say, because they were so moved and stunned. So,

Meko Winbush: Yes, I think so. They were just moved.

Yolanda T. Cochran: And so, and then my most, most favorite memory was, I am a post geek. I love, love, love, love, love post, and was super excited about the post period for this movie and what we were gonna do with the sound work and felt like it was really gonna help the movie, which it did. [01:04:00] So my, my most favorite memory, and I love all the people that we worked with, I love all of you, all of our crew.

Love you bunches and bunches. But I really had so much fun in the sound mix.

Meko Winbush: Oh yeah. I forgot about the sound mix too. Yeah, the sound mix was the eight days we spent at Formosa with the,

Yolanda T. Cochran: That was super great.

Meko Winbush: We renamed it the Roast Room.

Yolanda T. Cochran: I loved it. I had, I mean I, it just filled my heart. Like I was just like so happy just experiencing it because we had talented people doing it and they were lifting the film another level and it was just fun to be, to observe it.

Meko Winbush: No, they were so good at their jobs and they're just so cool to like... Yeah. Caleb and, and, Rocket Car David, Jeff Pitts. Byron.

Jeanette Volturno: A shout out to all of the vendors that helped us.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yes.

Jeanette Volturno: All of the crew that helped us.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. Headquarters, [01:05:00] Intinuity, Crafty Apes. Yep.

Jeanette Voltunro: These unions that allowed for people to step up into the positions that we gave them.

I mean, really, really, really, really wonderful to support independent film and new voices.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah

Julie Harris Oliver: It's a total lovefest.

Now, I think this brings us to our martini shot, or in our case, the red wine.

And Bri, Josh.

What advice do you have for someone trying to do what you do? But before I ask that, Meko, what is next for you?

Meko Winbush: Dude. Hopefully working with these guys again. Definitely just taking a breather just for a minute, but like, yeah, just trying to figure out the next project. Like I'd love to, I'd love to direct something that I, I write at some point. So yeah, just kind of figuring that next project, just definitely excited to get back.

I have so much fun on set and I love like working, just being part of a team. It's just so much fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: I feel like we're sitting on the launchpad right now.

Yolanda T. Cochran: You are. Yeah, [01:06:00] you are. Yeah, you mark, write it down. You are definitely sitting on it. For sure.

Julie Harris Oliver: Exciting!

Jeanette Volturno: And we're gonna get the band back together.

Meko Winbush: Dude. I, yeah, definitely getting the band together.

Like, there's so many of those people that I'm like, oh, I wanna work with them again.

Yolanda T. Cochran: For sure. Yeah, for sure.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. What is your piece of advice for someone who wants to do what you do?

Meko Winbush: I would say be patient, but still work hard. Like it's definitely something that doesn't just, I mean, well some, some people get lucky and it happens very fast.

And other people, it took a few years for me to get here and, and it was not without discouragement and all of these things, but it's all kind of just kept believing in myself and still trying to find other ways to be creative and stuff like that. Yeah. I think it's being patient with yourself, putting some pressure on yourself.

Also putting in the work.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's what they say that it's where luck meets preparation. So you have to do the preparation part.

Meko Winbush: Yeah. 100%.

Julie Harris Oliver: So that when the luck comes, you're ready.

Meko Winbush: Mm-hmm. , no, that's 100%. If I hadn't spent all that time writing and getting good and fast, then it definitely [01:07:00] helped with this and editing and just doing, even doing all the shorts and stuff, it definitely helped.

So then when this came, that's why I wasn't worried. Cause it's like, yeah, I, I'm ready. I can do this. I know what I'm doing. So yeah.

Yolanda T. Cochran: My advice over the last probably 10 years has continued to be understand that what this business is, and a lot of other businesses are, is not a meritocracy truthful. So while what Meko just said is correct, you want to prepare yourself and be skilled and be knowledgeable.

You need to understand that those are not necessarily the things that are gonna get you where you are wanting to go, in this business. And you're not gonna just get yourself there because you're the best at what you do and you know the most. And you have to understand that. And you have to understand the things the other things that you need to do to get yourself where you want to [01:08:00] go. And that's a lot.

Some of that is about making people understand what you're capable of and speaking it, and saying it out loud, and then putting it in front of people's faces. And part of it is about networking and finding the people who can take you where you wanna go, and understanding the most effective ways and means to get in front of them.

It's not about like, you know, knocking their doors down because you're probably not gonna be effective that way either, because you're gonna make a nuisance of yourself. So it's a little bit about becoming, I don't wanna say a player, not a player. I'm definitely not a player. But you definitely have to navigate this business and the earlier you do it, the better and the farther you're gonna get sooner.

Julie Harris Oliver: You can't just sit in your apartment and write a script and then wait for the phone to ring?

Yolanda T. Cochran: No, not do that. I was just thinking like in my mind, when Meko was talking is like, do not wait, do not wait for anything. You have to constantly be going [01:09:00] forward, speaking out, saying, "Hey, here's what I wanna do." Tell people, don't wait for them to recognize that you're amazing because you might wake up and be 40 something and amazing and nobody paid attention to you.

Julie Harris Oliver: You don't wanna die with your potential intact.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Exactly.

Meko Winbush: Can I just add one more thing... also just the way like technology is and about like not sitting home. Like if you wanna make movies, then go make one. Like there was a great movie called Tangerine that was shot on an iPhone 5s and it's great. Like write a great script, get good actors and like.

As long as you have good characters and people are interested in what they do, cause so much of a movie is having interesting characters, like people are gonna see it. Like there's no, you kind of don't have a ton of excuses. Like, I mean, Christopher Nolan shot his first movie for $5,000 on weekends over like a year.

So like, don't just sit in your apartment and wait for, like, go do it then if you wanna, if you wanna do it.

Jeanette Volturno: I love all of that and I would say surround yourself with people who believe in [01:10:00] you and listen to what you're repeating in your own mind and your heart, because you are your biggest champion. And if you are thinking negative thoughts like, oh God, I can't do this, then you're gonna project that out to the world.

So you have to believe in yourself and really have the people around you that believe in you as well. Because it takes a team. It is not a solo thing. It takes a hundred plus people to make a movie.

And you need to surround yourself with people who are like-minded, like-hearted, and are willing to go that extra thing because you need those people to work symbiotically with your vision to get it done.

Yolanda T. Cochran: Yeah. That's good.

Jeanette Volturno: And also you don't need to yell at people either.

Julie Harris Oliver: It always comes down to don't be a dick.

And that's a wrap.

Jeanette Volturno, Meko Winbush, Yolanda Cochran. Thank you very much. We cannot wait to watch the season.

This has been [01:11:00] Catch a Break. Project Greenlight Edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Meko Winbush, Yolanda Cochran and Jeanette Volturno. And special thanks to Crewvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide.

Please check out our website at Catchabreakpodcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with CatchLight Studios and The Other 50%. Our theme music Mantra for a Struggling Artist was composed by Andrew Joslyn. Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

Next up I'll talk with Jessica Frances Dukes, who plays Ayla in the film, and Seth Yanklewitz, the casting director. In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.

The Blackening: Dewayne Perkins

CAB The Blackening: Dewayne Perkins

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] The Catch A Break podcast is the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry with me, Julie Harris Oliver Project Greenlight is a do you follow show now Streaming on Max about the making of an independent film by an emerging director on season four of Catch A Break.

These two shows meet in Catch a Break. We will bring you the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We'll talk to producers, the director, the cast, the department heads to hear what it was really like. Watch the show and then come listen to hear what really happened on Catch a Break wherever you get your podcasts.

That season drops on July 13th. You're not gonna wanna miss it.

This is the Catch or Break podcast, the Insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us@catcherbreakpodcast.com and all the social media at Catcher Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. I have another interview for you from the Blackening.

This time with creator, [00:01:00] writer, co-producer star Dewayne Perkins, who played the role of Dewayne in this movie. Dewayne Perkins is an Emmy nominated American comedian, writer, producer, and actor. Some of his other writing and producing credits include NBC's Brooklyn nine Nine. Netflix's The Break With Michelle Wolf.

Peacock Saved by the Bell and the Amber Ruffin Show to which he was nominated for an Emmy as an actor. He has appeared on Peacock, saved by the Bell. Netflix's the Upshaw's, as well as the Blackening - a feature he wrote and co-produced that premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival and is playing in theaters now.

We talked about the success of this film, the deeper revolution that it is this moment in his life, and what's the secret sauce to success? Settle in. Have a listen.

Dewayne Perkins, thank you so much for coming on catch a break.

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's so nice to meet you. First of all, I should say congratulations on the Blackening.

What I wanna say, what a triumph. [00:02:00] It's incredible. It's doing so well. I know it's being received. Great. How are you feeling right now? It's been open for not even quite a week.

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah. It, it, it feels good. Like, I think there's like two prongs or there's like a, a very personal, just, very happy that like the end of the journey, is still as positive as the beginning.

So that's like, just very heartwarming. And then there's like a, like a business aspect side of it where I'm like, oh, I've never done this. Like, this is so interesting to just like see the process and kind of, Gaining a new, like litmus as to like this part of the business. That part is like exciting but nervous.

Just being like, oh, I dunno, like what this means. Like, like what a, and especially because of like the strike and kinda like where we are. I'm just curious to know like what this movie being out means for the future of, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So is this the first time you've been involved to this extent and in this [00:03:00] part of it, like, are you watching box office numbers?

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah, so this is the, this is the first film I ever wrote, the first film that I was in. And so I'm just like, and I generally as a person, I love information. I'm just like, oh, like I love figuring out like how a system works. I was a very math and science oriented child. And so in this, in the creative spaces, I'm like, oh yeah, I recognize and love the creative aspect, but also.

How does the creativity exist within these specific systems that are, that gets to dictate how and when. Yeah, it all works. And so that's the part I'm like, okay, I have to learn that part as well because the creativity doesn't come unless there, there's that part to it as well.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you're doing kind of the trial by fire, the business part of it?

Dewayne Perkins: Yes. I'm just like, okay. Okay. So, so this is what it means for a movie to be profitable. This is this, this is this. Just saying like, ok, I'm seeing kinda what, where the markers of [00:04:00] success are because it, it, it seems so drastically different depending on the film.

Julie Harris Oliver: And how would you describe, what you've learned about what those markers are?

Dewayne Perkins: It, it seems a little illogical to me personally, so that's why I'm trying to gain more information. But it really is, it comes down to just like profit and how much money is being put in versus how much money is coming back. So that part is just like interesting because it's all relative to like the price point.

Yeah. Which is something that I, I just learned to be like, okay, and now I can see how this movie can make millions and millions of dollars and still. A flop because of how much money was put into it. And then a movie can make not as much money, but because it was made for a lot less, that is still seen as like profitable next to each other.

Which is interesting. That's so strange.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Cuz you have what it costs to make the movie. You have all the marketing of it, and it's gone through several [00:05:00] hands. I know it was, financed by m MRC , produced by CatchLight Studios being distributed by Lions Gate. Let's touch on that for a minute, because Lionsgate came in at the end to distribute it.

You didn't really have a, like a studio overlord while you were making it. So what, what was that experience like?

Dewayne Perkins: It still felt like M R C functioned as a studio as far as I would say in terms of like the partnership and kind of the, who gets to kind of like dictate or like give notes. So there was still, from my point of view, like people that we had to appease in some way, creatively, Yeah, I mean like they're like paying for the movie, so they're like, Hey, we think this is a thing.

You can't just be like, no. They can ask some

Julie Harris Oliver: questions, I

Dewayne Perkins: guess. Yeah, like. Other voices to consider was, new for me. Cuz I come from like improv, sketch, standup, where I'm writing a [00:06:00] lot just from my own point of view. And then in, in, in television, the jobs that I've had was always me working to, further someone else's vision and I'm just like adding my thought versus this was so much from me.

So that was a new experience to have a clear vision and then, Collaborating to be like, okay, so this is going to be out. It's now outside of me and it's a bigger system that is now at play. But I would say because M R C was good creative partners, they really allowed us the freedom to just like do what we wanted to do.

And they were, they were very open to listening. To like the reasoning behind what we wanted to do. And I think because of that, we were able to make a successful film that felt authentic to what, to, to the original vision that we had.

Julie Harris Oliver: How is that just for you to make that shift from, I'm gonna add [00:07:00] my contribution, or I'm writing for myself, or I'm all doing the creative thing to make that shift to allow in other collaborators, because I know like just notes are hard, right?

To take in and think about and and adjust your creative vision. What did you kind of have to do personally? To get to that collaborating space?

Dewayne Perkins: Well, I'm, I, I feel very, naturally a fan of collaboration. Most of the things that I've done were very ensemble based, like improv and Sketch. It's all about.

The ensemble, it's all about figuring out what we can make together. So I don't have an aversion to collaboration generally. I would say the thing that was shocking was kind of the position that the writer plays and features versus in tv. Oh yeah. Tv. The writer is like the top, the like, they're the creator, the show runner, like they have a certain position where their opinion is prioritized, whereas in writing, I realize often the writer and features the writer is [00:08:00] very seen of, of service where you, you do a thing and then that script is taken and given to people and then you're kind of like, thank you so much for the attribution we got.

Realizing that like that is the position that the writer plays and features. That was shocking to me. Cause I was like, but I know the most about this.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and also you were there, which doesn't always happen.

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah. And so that was something that, that I feel is unique, just being a multi hyphenate and being able to kind of wear different hats in, in that space.

So, I do think if I was not in it and a producer, the experience would've been very different. So I'm still very grateful that I got the opportunity to still be in the room to. Continue to kind of push the vision that I had. And then having partners like Tracy and Tim who were very much like, yes, do not ever feel not empowered to speak up, like, this is still yours.

We understand [00:09:00] how writers usually function. We're not doing that here. You like, this is your baby. Like, we get it. So having those partners, I think really painted the experience in a much more positive light than I assumed it would be. Just knowing. The kind of power that writers have and features.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Okay. Can we go way back and we ask everyone on the show, what was your very first job in the business and how did you get it?

Dewayne Perkins: Hmm. What would I consider my first job? I would consider my first job. Would, would, would, would you say acting, writing, like which, which part? Just like, like first my first job period.

Julie Harris Oliver: When you first. When you first felt like, oh, I've been hired to do a creative thing as a job.

Dewayne Perkins: Yes. So like creatively, I think my very first, I really wanna like nail like, get this right. Cause Im, I, now I'm like curious like what would I consider my first creative [00:10:00] job? I'd say my first creative job was I was hired to be an interior designer.

For, this company called Potbelly. There, it's a sandwich shop. Okay. And in Chicago, I was in art school and I was working as a sandwich artist at a restaurant and they put up a, a sign in the break room, been like, Hey, the corporate, like the higher up to look, hire like a young, cool, hip like artist. For a project.

And I was like, well, I'm young, I'm cool, I'm hip. Hired me. And so they hired me to, redesign, a bunch of restaurants across the country to like do research on the places and just like find, like who are. Suggest like how to, like where to hang it. So that, like, I felt like that was like the first time I was like being paid to like be creative, to be like, Hey, you have a vision.

Here's money to like, go figure out how, what to do with that. [00:11:00] And then specifically within like comedy, I think being hired to work at Second City was like one of those moments to be like, okay, like I'm being paid to specifically do comedy. And then industry-wide, like bigger. I would say my first job was, While and out on MTV with Nick Cannon.

That was like right after Second City, and that was like my first like industry job. And I was like, oh, I'm on tv. I made it. And then my first writing job was the break with Michelle Wolf on Netflix.

Julie Harris Oliver: I love that your first job was a sandwich shop. Designing That was not what I expected.

Dewayne Perkins: I've had a life,

Julie Harris Oliver: you can do all the things.

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah. I mean, like I, I do think just generally art is so connective, and all of the things that I've done kind of feed into each other. Yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: for sure. Now, I've heard this story several times that you did the Blackening as a sketch with three-peat and now it's a movie, and I haven't heard a lot of details in [00:12:00] between.

So can you talk us through how it went from, cause it took, what, five years from the sketch to the movie coming out? Yeah. Is that right?

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah. And it was, I wrote the original sketch in 2016. Oh. So I was doing okay. Yeah. So I was doing a show at Second City called Afrofuturism. It was like their first like all black like sketch variety show.

And we needed an opening scene for that show. So I wrote the black name. It was then called Horror Story, and I wrote it for that show. We did it. It was a hoot. And so we kept doing it. It became like the official opening for that show. And then, second City did a theatrical production in DC at Willie Mammoth called The Black Side of the Moon, and I was in that show.

So that sketch then became the opening for that show. And then from there, three, Pete got a, web series deal with Comedy Central. So we had to pitch sketches and I was like, oh, I would love us to do this [00:13:00] sketch because I, it, it has only been on stage where, and it was a hit. Yeah. And so like it, when it was on stage, I was like, oh, like there's just not enough.

Like if we film it, we could really nail the tone. Cause on stage it's just like, Pretending and like we're in a house, you have like lights at best. So when I pitched it to Comedy Center, they were like, yes, this is the, the, the first sketch that we're gonna film. So then we filmed it, it was a dream to film.

And then they put it out and it went viral. And it got I think like 15 million views in like a couple days on Facebook. Wow. And then on. YouTube, it was like hundreds of thousands. Then it started being posted everywhere. And then Tracy Oliver, she just. She saw it. Yeah. And then she called me and said, Hey, this should be a movie.

But yeah, she called the theater that three pe had our, our show at. She got my information. She called us and was like, Hey, I think this should be a [00:14:00] film. Who wrote it? Three people was like, Dewayne wrote it. This is his sketch. And she was like, okay. So. Partnered with Tim Story and we took it out and I remember that was the first pitch I ever took out.

And there was nine pitches set up and the day before the first pitch, they were all canceled. And I was like, what is happening? And I was so anxious and I was like, and wait. All of them canceled? Yes. And I was like, something's, why are we not doing these pictures no more? Yeah. So then I think like two days went by where, where I was like, what is happening?

Oh my God. And then I got a call from the producer being like, oh, no, no, no. Like there, there, there was just like an offer before we had to do it. They just wanted buy it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like, don't worry, we sold it before you ever had to pitch it.

Dewayne Perkins: Literally never pitched it. Not a single bitch. Hey, Marcie just said, okay, we see the package, we saw the sketch.

This is enough. Okay, give it to us. So [00:15:00] then, yeah. Wow. Then it, wow. And then, it went into development. We went in, kind of showed, like, told them like what it would be. They said, great. Go do it. Then we did it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Amazing. Amazing.

Dewayne Perkins: It is. It's kind of crazy in hindsight looking at it, she'll be like, wow, this really worked out.

Yeah,

Julie Harris Oliver: I think it's worked out just fine. So then going from that, I just gotta ask, how did it feel to be, and this is the one I can't get over, how did it feel to be at the Apollo screening this

Dewayne Perkins: movie? Oh man, that was, okay. So like kinda the whole process similar to. Every stab. I'm just like, what is happening?

How did we get here? What, what's happening right now? And the Apollo specifically was like one of those moments, like the Apollo, Kiki Palmer, like just like kind of all of it. The culmination of [00:16:00] this project, I like, I, I still think I'm like processing it because it has been like so positive. In a way that's like shocking, because as a person I'm pretty like chill and low key and I'm just like, you know, what would happen will happen.

I'm very open to like positive, negative. There's balance in life. Yeah. Yeah. And for this project, it's just been so sick, significantly positive that it's, I'm, I'm just kinda like shocked. Just very grateful. Getting to rub the, the stone. It. Was one of the best moments of my life so far. So, yeah, I, I'm still just kind of gagged by it.

I'm just like, what?

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, it, it feels big, it feel, and I, I've just met you, but it, it feels to me like this may be one of those moments where it's like a before and after, you know, like, yeah. Everything changed.

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah. Yeah. Even within like the film being out [00:17:00] for like a week, I went to this like party and there were so many people just be like, Hey, I saw your movie, like, congrats.

And I was, and I was with three friends, and it happened like the first couple times we were like, that's that's so cool. Like, what? That's crazy. And then it kept happening and then it kept happening and then I, I was, was like, okay, I'm trying to stay pretty grounded, but, This is crazy, right? And they're like, and so like even it's already been like a shift in small ways.

I'm just so shocked by, maybe that's something I gotta work through, through therapy, that my expectations are always so low, but I'm just like, you know, I dunno. If you don't expect crazy things, you can't be disappointed. And now I'm like, I should have expected more because this is crazy.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's so wonderful.

Now this film is so funny. I just laughed the whole time. It's also so scary [00:18:00] and I also know it's, it's deeper than that. Right? You were really confronting, I think a lot of things with this film and I'd love it if you could talk about that a little bit.

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah. It's, it's very layered. Because like on the surface, it, the purpose is just, Fine.

It's entertainment. Yeah. Like it's an entertaining movie. We did not have a goal to like statement specifically about black people. This, this. We just wanted to make an entertaining movie that had a bunch of black people in it, which inherently became a statement because that's not a thing that happens often.

And so because we knew that like, oh, this act within itself is just new, therefore it's going to say something, it was impossible not to have said something. It was impossible not to have deeper meanings because, Just by allowing these characters in particular to be [00:19:00] as unapologetically themselves is an act of like, Revolution and be like, oh, like we're like doing a thing.

Even like allowing like a black queer lead to like just exist. There were just so many ways in which I and Tracy have consumed media, and we wanted to attack this in a way in where we saw blackness as universal, that we were not creating something niche. We were creating an entertaining movie that everybody co.

Watch with very specific characters. And because we have a certain lived experience, we were able to imbue these characters with, with that, which made them feel real, which made people be invested in whether they die or not. And. And in doing so, it also showed a lot. We were not concerned with like telling where you're like, we don't have to be like, black people are different.

Like you see seven black people being different. That's enough. Like [00:20:00] we're doing it like just by existing in this way that feels unfiltered. And so yeah, it was mainly just us wanting to have fun, wanting to show black people in a range of ways to really push. That we are not the same, that we really are universal, that similar to like queerness and be like, if you just allow people to do the thing without biases, they can do anything like this is manmade.

All of these biases, all of this. We did that, so just stop. Made it up.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think just the leaning into it and the specificity just made it all so relatable. We know all these people. We love all these people. Like you did it. Good job.

Dewayne Perkins: Thanks. That feels very good. I'm, I'm very happy that a lot of people have really understood what we were trying to do.

Cause I, I, I do think that there is this limitation within [00:21:00] media that there's just so few data points as to like the kind of like black horror comedies. Like even in conversations, it's always like, scary movie and get out. And why are those the two data points? Cause that's all there is. Like there just hasn't been enough.

So being able to create something that feels like it's adding to that instead of just regurgitating what's already out there is like, for me so fulfilling and makes me feel like, oh, I'm, I, this is like the start of my like creative, artistic legacy, which is very cool. Cause I have not felt that till right now.

Yeah, you are

Julie Harris Oliver: in the cannon.

So I've, we have a couple minutes left, but I have two questions I wanna throw at you. One would be, what is your favorite memory of making this film? And the other one would be, what advice do you have for people who are trying to do what you do? Go,

Dewayne Perkins: Outside of the Apollo, I would [00:22:00] say, TIFF was kind of mind blowing because up until that time, I've never associated.

What we were doing kind of with the prestige of film festivals. Mm-hmm. I just kind of from the outside, so that's Toronto. Yeah. So from the outside looking in, I was just like, oh yeah, like we're just making our cute little movie, we're gonna do our thing. But those spaces always felt very, like just homogeneous in a sense of like, oh yeah, like black gay people aren't there doing stuff.

Right. And so for. For the film to be seen in that kind of light. There was also kind of a, a shift in my career where there was a level of prestige that I just did not as know that I, that would be associated to this film. And I love, like I have my opinion and I think that they're very strong and people can't change them.

Like I, I know what I feel. So for the industry to [00:23:00] actively agree. But yeah, we also think it's good. I was like, oh, okay, cool. And then Midnight Madness. That was the first time I've ever seen a theater feel like a sporting event. It was like a pious, there was like beach balls. I was like, I've never experienced mo like theater.

In this way. And so it kind of just showed me like a new way to consume art and I was obsessed with it. I said, yeah, this was like a concert, like this is how movies should be. So that was like one of the best moments of this whole process. And then to answer the second question, any advice I would give, It's kind of like something that I think was very helpful for me is recognizing what I could do that nobody else could, and then leaning into that.

So the idea, I think, similar to my perception of like the Toronto Film Festival from the outside, and when you don't see [00:24:00] yourself, you start to think, this is not made for me. This is gonna be too hard. Like there's not a roadmap for me to do that. And at some point in my career I realized that that was the freeing part of being like, okay, if there's no roadmap, I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want.

I'm going to do this, gonna, then I'm gonna pivot, I'm gonna do this, then I'm gonna do that. Like there's no. If, if, if there's no rubric for me, that means I am unlimited. I can just do it as I see fit for myself. And so I do feel my journey is very specific to me, so it's very hard to, to be like, just do what I did.

I'm like, that's, that's not gonna work. Nope. And so I would say to kind of, I have the same mindset that I did when I was doing it, which is I am me. No one else is me. No one else can do what I can do specifically. Nobody has had the combination of the lived experiences that, that I have. Nobody have [00:25:00] the exact skillset that I have, and kind of knowing that that was my power and leaning into that, like I don't necessarily, like, I don't cold switch anymore.

Like I just don't do any of the things that I felt was needed of me. Because I recognize in these spaces, they need me. Like it's a, like, it's, it, it's, it's a back and forth. Like it's not just me asking for things, it's me creating art so that they can make profit. Like this is also a collaboration. And then, and recognizing like your worth and your, like, what you bring to that.

Collaboration, I think is essential so that you can move without fear. Cause I think fear is the antithesis of art. You're just, you're not creating in your fullness. So I think like that is the advice that I would give is like figuring out exactly how you can be your strongest self and. Retain that. It's so like basic, but like [00:26:00] confidence, like actual confidence, like, just like being confident in the things that you do.

Like I didn't know that like writing that sketch would be a movie years later, but I was confident I could write a sketch. I was like, I know what sketch is. I write sketch, so I'm gonna write this sketch. Also just doing, doing things. I think changes a lot and that speaks back to the fear where I think a lot of fear stops people from like doing the thing.

Cause they're judging the thing. They're like, is this good enough? And I just think that we are much harder on ourselves than the industry like need us to be. Things are not good. I always tell people like, don't compare yourself to the person doing it the best. Compare yourself to the person doing it the worst because they're doing it and it's not good.

They're still doing it, like, and they're still doing it. Like, who's to say like, what's good and bad? Like that is so objective and the, and the difference from some person doing it and it's bad is somebody doing it and it's not, is that they're doing it. So just do it and then [00:27:00] learn as you go. It

Julie Harris Oliver: struck me when you said, I don't code switch anymore.

And you as a brush off statement, that's, that's fucking huge what you just said.

Dewayne Perkins: Yeah. Like I've sold like TV shows, like in a durag. Just be like, yeah man, hey, this is what it, this is what it is. Like you're hiring me cuz I have a voice. I have a skillset that you need. Yeah. Why would I change that? Yeah.

Yeah. There's no purpose.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wonderful. Yay. Dewayne Perkins, thank you so much and congratulations on the film on this moment, on everything. I cannot wait to see the rest of your career.

Dewayne Perkins: Thank you so much. This was a pleasure.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch a Break. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guest, Dewayne Perkins for this conversation.

And special thanks to kru v.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Please check out our website at catch or break. podcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with Cat Light Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Jocelyn.

Thanks for [00:28:00] listening. Be sure to mark your calendars for July 13th. That's when Project Green Light and our Project Greenlight season starts dropping. I hope this helps you to catch a break.

The Blackening: Cast

CAB The Blackening Cast

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] The Catch A Break podcast is the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. Project Greenlight. Now streaming on Max is about the making of an independent film by an emerging director. On season four of Catch A Break, these two shows meet. We'll talk to the producers, director, the cast, the department heads to hear what it was really like.

Those people had to

not only sign up to do a low

budget indie movie, but have a camera

and mic in their face

while doing it. Hear what really happened behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. On Catch A Break, wherever you get your podcasts, that season drops on July 13th and you are not going to wanna miss it.

This is the Catch or Break podcast, the insider's guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catch or break podcast.com and all the social media at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places to hide you over until the Project Greenlight season comes out.

We have something so special for you right now. [00:01:00] I got to speak with four of the cast members for the new film, the Blackening. If you haven't seen it yet, grab your friends and run. Don't walk and watch it in the theater. I sat down with Grace Byers, who plays Allison in the film and who you may know from Harlem and Empire.

Also, Jermaine Fowler, who plays Clifton, and you may know from coming to America and Judas in the Black Messiah. Also, Melvin Gregg, who plays King and previously was in Nine Perfect Strangers and the United States vs Billy Holiday. And finally, Antoinette Robertson, who plays Lisa and who you may know from Dear White People and Diggstown

we talked about what a special experience it was making this movie, and dug into all kinds of advice for actors pursuing this craft. Settle in. Have a listen

Today, I'm so excited to have four actors from the Blackening. On the podcast we have Melvin Gregg, who played King, Jermaine Fowler, who played Clifton, Grace Byers, who played Allison and Antoinette Robertson, who played lisa.

Welcome everybody.

Antoinette Robertson: Thanks for having me. Thank you. [00:02:00] Thank you.

Grace Byers: Thank you so much for having me, Julie.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now first things first, now that we're coming out of Covid and people are just starting to get back to the theater, it feels like the Blackening is something that people should really go to the theater to see.

But I'd love to hear from you, what is that experience like seeing it in a theater, and why should people go, grace,

why don't you start us off?

Grace Byers: It's such a communal experience, really. I mean, I, I think what I love the most about the Blackening is that it shares. So many idiosyncrasies and isms of black culture, but it's not limited to black culture.

It's not limited to the black experience, right? I think that any and everyone can see this and really enjoy this, but it's really those, um, nuances of black culture that everyone in the black culture can really identify with and understand and, um, commune with that makes this such a special piece. And when you're in the theater and you're watching it, even if you're not at the black culture, you feel like you're a part of the family, right?

And so it really makes you feel included and it is [00:03:00] inclusive and it's, it's just a feel good, you know, leaving the theater, hollering, talking about all your favorite moments kind of film.

Julie Harris Oliver: Jermaine, what would you add to that?

Jermaine Fowler: I will say you do have to see this movie in a theater. It is just energetic. It's, it warrants a reaction, negative or positive.

I think people are supposed to, you know, get excited during certain moments. You should see it with a, you know, a group of people because of the energy that it just, it invites so much conversation and reaction. It's just more fun that way. In fact, I, I just grew up in movies that were like that. I remember seeing scary movie in the theater when I wasn't supposed, I snuck in it, man.

I was fucking crazy. So I, I hope that, Is the same experience for, you know, the next generation who want to become actors or, you know, people who wanna be filmmakers, writers, whoever that is. I hope that this movie is that fit.

Julie Harris Oliver: Melvin, anything to add to that? What can the audience expect?

Melvin Gregg: They can expect to have a good time.

Um, so many of my friends who've [00:04:00] seen it and people who have, um, you know, hit me up on Instagram about the movie, they all say that like, it was a really fun time. They haven't had an interactive experience in the theater like this in a long time. Um, it's just fun, you know, everybody's yelling at the screen.

Um, everybody's jumping, laughing at the same thing. So you not only feel seen by the characters on the film because they're doing things that you want them to do, but you feel seen within the communal experience of the theater because it's like a whole group of you guys singing along the different songs or jumping at the same thing or laughing at the same thing.

So it's just, uh, It was an experience. So I would say expect to have fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: For sure. It was the singing that got me. I was like, is everyone actually singing in here? Oh, it's so great. Mm-hmm. And I heard you had a big screening at the Apollo. I would love to hear Antoinette, how, how that screening was. Cause I, I have to imagine it was just amazing.

Antoinette Robertson: It was a, a euphoric experience. I mean, like, I've seen it [00:05:00] so many different times, but there was something about being in the Apollo, the history behind the Apollo, how historic. It just felt like the entire moment felt so fitting. This piece of art that we created feels like it's definitely going to break barriers and, and create a wave of change within both the, the horror comedy genre, but also hopefully creates a space.

Where we explore way more black characters in, in a fully fleshed out manner as opposed to making them sidekicks. It felt so good to be in a room of people that we know have been there with us since the beginning, and also who are just truly excited and just willing to come into everything with an open mind and have a good time.

It just felt so good. I can't even explain it to you. The laughs that we heard during that particular screening were way [00:06:00] louder than any other screening. I mean, like, I feel like second would be Tiff. Um, everyone was just walking into a movie that they just want they saw that was like, you know, I'm intrigued.

They came in with an open mind and just like came to have a great time and it truly was exactly that. That's so great. They just loved it. Yeah, it, it was really great.

Julie Harris Oliver: It is a horror film, but it is also so flip and funny, like laugh out loud constantly. So how did you feel about kind of the mashup of those two genres and then as an actor, how did

you approach that Grace?

Grace Byers: You know, this was my very first, uh, horror film. I would venture to say that it could very well possibly be my last, only because of the fact that I'm not, I'm really not a big fan of the horror genre, which is hilarious. And it's so funny that even my team who, you know, receives a gamut of scripts that, you know, span all the genres, they are so used to me saying no to horror films, right?

So, so they, when they, when they brought this one to me, they were like, we know you're gonna say no because it's in the, you know, [00:07:00] the scary film realm, but because Tracy Oliver is a part of it, we're hoping you, you might take a look. And I read it and I was like, not only to, am I not saying no, but I'm saying absolutely, let's do this now if we can.

It was just so, so, so funny. So I say all of that to say that. If you are a horror film fanatic, you're gonna love it because there are quite a few scares that really satisfy. But if you're not, you're still gonna love it because people walk out of the theater pretty much arguing what genre they think it is.

Some people are like, no. Yes, definitely. It's a horror. Other people are like, absolutely not. It's a total comedy, right? And so for someone like me who does not like, like horror films, and for someone like my husband who does, we both adored it. And so I think that's saying a lot as far as crossing those lines in those genres.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, a hundred percent. I, I never go see horror films. Uh, but yeah, I was all in. For

sure. That's great.

Jermaine Fowler: I think it had to be funny first, I think some of the funniest movies, uh, you kind of earn [00:08:00] that laugh through, um, that suspense and that tension that you build. This movie has a lot of tension, a lot of buildup, uh, whether that's through the, the horror or the chemistry through the cast, uh, the infighting, all that.

I think, uh, the, the, the jokes just land organically and I feel like, um, you know, the trauma of being a, a, a black person is so, it's just so in, in the atmosphere of, of, of the film that people are just connecting to every, every little nugget, every little moment in, in the film to the big moments. I think people are just really relating to 'em.

And so trauma and comedy can kind of, you can't have one without the o the other, you know, I, I, it just sucks to say, but like some of the best films, some of the best comedians or birth through horrific or traumatic experiences, whether it's prior or, you know, some of my favorite. Movies or comedies, like they kinda have that connection.

Julie Harris Oliver: , what about you, Melvin?

Melvin Gregg: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I feel like [00:09:00] it's our perspective, a horror film coming from the perspective of the victim versus coming from, you know, whoever the bad guy is, is a completely, completely different experience. And, um, you know, from a distance you could see somebody falling, it'd be funny, but from their perspective, you know, it's traumatic.

So I think, uh, just understanding that, understanding the, the power of both horror and comedy, they, they kind of take you outta your comfort zone. You, you kind of lose control of your body and your emotions rather it be from laughing or jumping, uh, jump scare. It's all a part of the experience. Um, I guess that we create.

And as an actor, I think just playing every moment honest and just trusting the script and trusting, you know, just the project and the director and the other people involved. You'll, you'll land every time. Um, the jokes land because they're written, they're written, it's situational comedy. And then, you know, the jump scares a lot of times that happen in post, but just, just being honest to the moment.

Yeah.

Jermaine Fowler: And you know what's funny? You're gonna have pe some naysayers who are gonna say, why is [00:10:00] everything so heavy, heavy handed? Why is comedy so heavy handed? Like comedy's always been heavy handed, at least for my generation. You can go back to Bambi, like her mom got shot in the face. You know what I'm saying?

You can watch, this is doubtfire. It's about a bunch of kids going through a divorce. Like, everything's heavy. Like e everything has been heavy. It's just kind of how you handle it and what lens and filter, you know, you use the comedy, you know what I'm saying? So I, I think it all comes sides. Yeah, you gotta stakes.

Mm-hmm. Beverly Hills cop, his friend gets shot in the back of the head, you know what I mean? Like, that's how they start the movie. Like his brains are smoking and it rated our comedy. Like, it's just, you kind of need to take the audience to a place, you gotta start somewhere, you know? And I think, uh, it sucks, but like, you know, trauma and, and, and comedy do have a, it's a very thin line.

Julie Harris Oliver: Antoinette, how does that mash up for you?

Antoinette Robertson: Yeah, I'm, I'm not a horror girl. I've always kind of veered away from horror, to be perfectly honest. Like, I, I don't play in this spirit and in demon realm to be perfectly honest. Um, however, [00:11:00] when this script was, um, given to me, they were like, just, just read it.

When I read it, I was like, wow, this is innovative. It's a brand new take. Uh, we are taking on tropes. Uh, it's, it's reiterating the fact that black people are not a monolith. Like I love that. I mean, and then when we had the conversation of like, you know, the gory parts that were gonna happen, I was like, ok, it's fine.

Um, cause I was just, I'm immensely nervous when it comes to being frightened. And so it really worked, uh, in the film, given that, you know, Lisa is very much so the anchor, um, and the glue when it comes to her group, I'm very much so like a grounding force for all of them. And so having me be actually terrified kind of helped so much and allowing the comedy to soar the way that it did.

So I truly just kind of stayed. Uh, focused on the truth of the moment. I, I kind of ignored everything that was happening around me in terms of the comedy. Like I couldn't laugh at the jokes even though they were so funny. Yeah. Um, I just had to [00:12:00] stay really present in the terror and how traumatic a moment like that would be if I truly had to save my life and the lives of my best friends.

And I kind of like em embodied that and, and stayed in that world and stayed true to stay true to who I knew Lisa to be, who I crafted her to be and not kind of anticipate anything. I think once you, you layer things with anticipation, it kind of takes a surprise out of it for the audience and it's way more interesting for the audience to be as surprised if not more Yeah.

Than we are. So we, we found a way to keep it fresh and new for everyone, which, which was lovely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. And it so worked. It's like, it's something about like taking it so seriously that makes it so funny.

Antoinette Robertson: Mm-hmm. Most definitely. And I didn't understand that before now to be honest.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now let's talk about the way the film confronts all those horror film tropes, but also humanizes them.

How was that for you, Jermaine?

Why don't you start?

Jermaine Fowler: Man, I think every, every [00:13:00] character kind represents some sort of black trope or even, uh, stereotype, whether it's the biracial girl or the, you know, the, the black, you know, jock or the, the brother who's dating a white girl or, you know, the airhead. Um, everyone's got this surface level sort of trope that you see on the, on the outside, but you know, the movie's about kind of digging deeper and showing these characters for who they really are.

And I got a kick outta all that. Just seeing all those moments kind of play out during the, the perilous sort of like, you know, who's black is game moment. And it's weird cuz like, you know, all these characters have been. Scrutinized in some sort of way for not being black enough in, in some way. But the beautiful part is that they have each other, they all have that insecurity, and I think every black person has that insecurity.

Just being in America, you know, we all kinda like walk outside like. Black. Like, am I being black today? Like we all have that sort of like thing in the back [00:14:00] of our head cuz it's just, it's just is what it is. You know? I think every, every person in that, in that, in that cast and that in that friend group kind of represents, you know, a piece of, uh, of, of that how, how we all feel in a way being in this country.

In, in, in some sort of, in some sort of way.

Antoinette Robertson: Something that I've known for a very long time, or at least, at least been, that's been conveyed to me for a long time because I don't necessarily watch enough horror to know if it's completely true. Is that, What we've noticed is that the black characters have always had a tendency to, to feel a little disposable.

Um, yeah, kind of have always felt like tokens, which we know that's definitely for a fact. And, and I don't know if it's our community believing that the characters have always died first, because we never really caught a full glimpse into that person as a fully fleshed out human being. Like we've kind of only seen glimpses of them or the idea of what blackness was usually through the lens of whiteness.

And so what was really great [00:15:00] about this project, um, the thing that I thought was most interesting was that they took the time to craft all of these relationships. Like these, these are people that you can see that are representative, that someone you might have met in your lifetime. Like I have at least three or four friends that are definitely a part of this friend group.

And it, it was nice to see that they created these characters not to just. Be like disposable or, or, or some kind of placeholder, but main characters in their own story. They're not just tokens. You, you get to see them, their full, authentic selves. You get to see the dynamics between the friendship groups.

You get to see, even though they've been friends for 10 years, how vastly different they all are. And I just love that they, they, they chose to, to highlight the uniqueness of all of the characters as opposed to in Yes. Or year people having a tendency to not necessarily spend as much time on characters of color.

And so I really [00:16:00] love that we ha we start having conversations. You know, we, we say usually, uh, if there's a black character in a horror movie, it, we just anticipate that that person is going to be the first person to die. Well, if we are all black, then what? It's ridiculous to even think about quantifying your blackness, but if you put all of these, these friends in a situation where they must quantify their blackness, then the ludicrous conversations that happen sometimes behind closed doors and in the group chats start to come out and we can kind of laugh at ourselves and poke fun at ourselves and not take ourselves seriously, if that makes sense.

It does.

Julie Harris Oliver: It does. That was so delicious.

How about you, Melvin?

Melvin Gregg: I think a lot of the tropes, it's not nec, it's not necessarily about being black, it's about, you know, just the, the tropes we typically see in horror movies as far as like the archetypes of characters. Then of course the, you know, the black character kind of being the first one to dies, the, you know, the main trope that we tackle.

But a lot of it is like, okay, the door creek's open instead of going outside to see what it is, like close the door. [00:17:00] You know what I mean? Um, instead of splitting up, stay together instead of running upstairs, like run outside. So it's like it's, it is beyond just the blackness of it. Just a lot of the, the typical tropes and horror movies that we, we often see.

That's what I kinda didn't like about horror movies, cuz I just didn't feel like. People wanted to survive. So with this one, it felt like it was the, it was my voice, things that I would wanna do if I was in a horror film. So that was very, very exciting, um, to turn upside down. And it just, as far as the whole, the black thing is, you know, it's unfortunate that it is typically typical practice that there's only one black person in horror films.

Like, who decided like, we should just have one. Was it just like a token situation? It's like, who, we got a one, let's just kill 'em off, get 'em out the way. And so like, that's so outdated and for the fact that this has to be satirical in order for us to have, uh, all black cast is crazy, but you know, first one's through the door.[00:18:00]

But to, to speak on humanizing the characters. I think it was great that we were able to see these characters fleshed out and yeah, humanized in a way that we don't typically see because they, they, they're dead so early, so we don't get to understand who they are and what they're going through and what they care about.

So in this film, you know, cuz they're all black, we can't all die first. You get a chance to know 'em all and see blackness through different lenses.

Julie Harris Oliver: Grace, how was that for you?

Grace Byers: That was amazing. So Dewayne Perkins, who wrote this, along with Tracy Oliver, it, it came, it was his brainchild, you know, he, he did it with his improv group 3peat, a few years ago was a sketch actually that he did, um, called the Blackening, where it was like a scene where they were playing with that trope, right?

Like the black person was always first one to die. What happens when everybody's black? All right, let's try to see who's the blackest to, to send them out there, right? And so I think just really attacking that trope and just turning it on its head has been the most [00:19:00] fun. And you really get a chance to see, do we die?

Do we live? I don't know. We'll see. Does this follow that trope? Um, we'll see. But it's, it's, it was so much fun to really, you know, attack that.

Julie Harris Oliver: And it was so palpable. Like you could see their 20 years of relationship, right. You could tell they'd all gone to school together and had all these deep relationships.

Mm-hmm. But how did you, how did you do that on set? How did you bond really quickly and how did you approach that as actors?

Antoinette Robertson: I truly have no idea how it happened. It feels like we, we really didn't have enough time to spend with one another to, to cultivate anything. I feel like. The reason it feels like everything happened at the, like at the right time is because the pandemic was like kind of dying down a little bit.

We were all kind of stuck and restless at home. Like everybody wanted to be artistic. We wanted to be around people. Again, it just felt like everyone approached this project as a labor of love. We all kind of showed up, [00:20:00] uh, as our authentic selves and we, we meshed in such a way that kind of didn't even make sense.

Like the chemistry was out of this world. Like we were laughing so much in between takes that they had to remind us that we were at work. Like it was legitimately like I was there with my best friends. And I have to say, it felt like summer camp, like when you're a kid and you go to summer camp, you're like, you can't wait to see your friends the next day.

Like, that's how it felt. And so I think the fact that we genuinely enjoyed each other's company, but also that we all had been doing this in, in our own right. I think we all just kind of knew. How to, to fit in where we fit in and, and not try to overpower anyone else. It was just kind of like we all trusted each other to do what we do best, and then we just went for it and it just ended up being like, the most perfect lightning in a bottle type situation.

Jermaine Fowler: Man, you know, it's funny, I, I didn't really meet anyone prior to filming [00:21:00] the, the movie, but there was a genuine respect and excitement to work with everybody. I was excited to meet Mel. Uh, I've seen Mel, uh, and a couple things and I was like, oh, this is crazy. Uh, grace Wayne, I've known Dwayne Dwayne's name been floating around the scene for a minute.

X and Antoinette, uh, sink. Like everyone's been killing it, you know, individually, forever. And it was like, I haven't been this excited to work with an ensemble like that since. Sorry to bother you. So I was like, this is gonna be fire. I just knew it's gonna be great in Tim. So we were on set and it, we all just kind of clicked like as soon as possible.

And I think being in that cabin really helped. We were all just kind of stuffed in one communal area, just getting to know each other. There were moments that were just like we all bonded over, whether it be the, the food on set, a particular crew member, the scene in general, but there was a real dance. We were all like ready to, you know, do we all knew that we all had to bond and, uh, go through this [00:22:00] horrific, tragic, you know, these scenes together.

So I think we all were, were aware, but it wasn't hard. It wasn't like we felt like we had to do it. It just kind of clicked like that way. And that's very seldom. Like we all just kind of, we all just vibe. That's great. How about you, Melvin?

Melvin Gregg: Yeah, I think us all being in the cabin together forced us to kinda get to know one another.

And I think another great thing about the cast is a lot of us are just really transparent and honest. It's not really that filter that a lot of people put on when they try to project who they are to people. We kind of just like, this is who we are. You like it, you love it, you hate it, that's up to you.

So we didn't have to go through a lot of those filters of getting to know each other, um, for who we really were. We kind of forced the people who are, who, even, even the people who aren't typically like that, we forced them to be that way because we were that way. So I think we kind of skipped past a lot of the, um, pleasantries just yeah, the pleasantries and just kind of dove into it together and got to know each other and, um, felt like we had that relationship that was, you know, 10 years strong.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, it [00:23:00] showed you, you all just jumped

in it.

Grace Byers: I'm so happy that you felt that because the chemistry that we all have as a, as a cast is really organic, and we were hoping that it would read, and I'm so glad that it did. Um, it is really rare to have two people come together on set, and you feel like, you know, you have to sell that we've known each other for years if you've just met, right?

That's difficult. But to do it with a group of people, it's even, it's even harder. Um, in this case, it was so easy. Everyone is super humble, super excited, was super excited to be a part of it. Just really talented, really fun, funny people. And so from the first day we just all kind of sat here like, all right, so let's do this.

And we, even now, we still have a group thread that we're all on, that we still talk on every si like almost every single day we're talking like, we're. We're a really loving group and we really enjoy each other, honestly. And so it's, it's [00:24:00] so fun to be a part of a project that's like that. It's, it's really a blessing.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now you actually have those relationships. Did you talk about your backstories at all? Like, did you make up, what happened 10 years ago with this and that, or was it just the I think

we, the bond, I think, yeah, like

Grace Byers: we had conversations with the group, um, as to what the relationships were like, and then some of it we actually said in the script, right.

So it's, it's clear that Allison and Lisa are pretty tight friends and, and also Lisa and um, Dwayne are really close friends. So you can tell the friendship dynamics in there. And I think individually we all had our own character history that we brought to that.

Julie Harris Oliver: For sure. So now this film was produced by Cash Like Studios financed by M R C.

It was picked up at the Toronto International Film Festival to be distributed by Lionsgate. How was the experience on set kind of making it, that perhaps was different from like another project you would typically do?

Grace Byers: For me, every project that I do, I try to make it a labor of love [00:25:00] and, and this was no different.

I, I think the reason why this one really felt so intimate is because it started off as an indie film, and so there was no way for us to even know that this was going to be distributed. I mean, you could hope that it would be, but there's no guarantees. Of course, you're hoping that people will get the vision that you are trying to portray, so, You know, it wasn't indie, it was a labor of love.

We all got together and we were like, listen, we're passionate about it, we're excited about it. We're doing something that we haven't seen out there before, so we're gonna put our heart and soul into it doubly, you know. But yeah, it was, it was just one of those experiences that we were, we all felt like it was a sacred experience.

It was really wonderful to be able to, you know, play characters that we could relate to in some way or form, and give them voice and give them body and flesh in, in a heartbeat. And to say, Hey, we hope people can get it, but you know, if they don't, it's okay. We still had the most fun doing it.

Melvin Gregg: It didn't feel like we had studio heads over the top of us kind of telling us what to [00:26:00] do and what not to do.

Um, it felt like we was making a movie that the creatives wanted to make. A lot of times with a studio film, there's a lot more people on set, a lot more opinions and it, you can feel it because things are a little safer, I guess you would say. Um, in regards to, how do I put it? Like, People are more cognitive of how the masses may respond to things versus doing what's organic to the film.

I, I felt like we were able to do what we wanted to do with the film. We were able to talk the way we wanted to talk, um, touch on the topics that we wanted to touch on, where's I felt like a, you know, a studio would've came in and been like, you know, maybe this is, maybe spades isn't super relatable. Let's do something else.

Or maybe, you know what I mean, we should try this or that or the other, because metrics show that these things work, so why not do those things? And I feel like we didn't have that. We had a freedom to just do whatever we wanted. MRC kind of gave us that and the producers that were involved with actually making the film, Um, [00:27:00] versus projects I've done in the past with studios kinda overhead directing us with what they see to be best.

Um, so yeah. Yeah, the, I guess the culture of the set felt more free.

Antoinette Robertson: I feel like

I'm so happy it was done this way because I feel like Tracy and Dewayne would not have been able to give the world undiluted blackness, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. I feel like with other shows, um, if you're, you're dealing with a network and you're dealing with.

A studio, I feel like you kind of have so many cooks in the kitchen and a lot of changes get made. Uh, I think there in a lot of times there are a lot of executives that don't necessarily understand the subject matter and they have an idea or preconceived notion as to what they may believe blackness is.

Or they may want it to be a little, a little less raw and authentic, [00:28:00] I wanna say, because it might make it more marketable, I guess, to the masses. And so I feel like in a situation like this, I feel like the point is proven that if you truly just give the consumer or you give people authentic experiences, authentic human experiences, it doesn't quite matter what the race of the individuals are like.

I am obsessed with Crazy Rich Asians. It is one of my. Movies, movies. I did not have to be Asian to understand people who wanted love in their lives. Yeah. Or who, who, who have to deal with the fact that, you know, they're being felt to, to feel inferior by other people. Like, same thing with the notebook.

I didn't have to be white to understand what was going on. You understand what I'm saying? So I, I feel like in a situation like this, instead of veering away from Yeah. Uh, showing all these characters fully embodied, they leaned into it. They leaned into to, to making things very [00:29:00] culturally specific.

Because what we do know about black culture is it, it, it influences every part of entertainment and people. Didn't have to know what life in, say, an impoverished area was, but they do understand it. When you hear Lil Wayne talking about it, they do understand it. When you hear Jay-Z talking about it, I think there are instances in life where sometimes you need to stop making the, the audience feel like stop dumbing things down for them.

I think if you give them the truth, you give them authenticity, people will have a tendency to lean towards that. And so what I love about how this was produced was they didn't have anybody over them. They didn't have anybody giving them notes every two seconds. It was very much so they were allowed to make the movie they wanted to make.

And I think that the movie is

Grace Byers: better for it. So it was really just a treat to have Lionsgate pick it up and, and distribute it. And you know, like an indie turned into my first feature film [00:30:00] playing in the cinemas, right? And so that is, whoa, like even for me, I'm still like, wow, I, I feel really humbled by that.

Julie Harris Oliver: It feels like not knowing the distribution of it could have been really risky for y'all to take this on. And so what an incredible outcome for all of that. Uh, effort and intention. And passion and belief.

Grace Byers: For sure. And I think that when you are really about the art and you're really about the craft, um, you're okay taking those risks.

Like, I, I am okay taking those risks. I'm okay being like, Hey, this may or may not fly, but that doesn't mean that art, like this doesn't deserve to be

made

Julie Harris Oliver: for sure. And seeing it now, it's so, it's so obvious. Like, it, it feels like it's gonna be a cult classic. Like, duh, this should be out in the world. Of course.

Yeah. So good. Do you have a favorite memory

from shooting this?

Grace Byers: Oh, come on. I, I, one, I, I don't have just one, but I will say that there were many, many, many days. And, and of course cuz so much of the film takes place in the game room. And so there were [00:31:00] many days that we were just stuck in the game room just laughing and cracking up.

I, I think, I think one of my favorite days would have to have been when we were shooting, who's the blackest scene. And, uh, the camera was on Germane. And, you know, Tim, of course used what, four examples of why he felt he wasn't the blackest. Every time he did a take, he, he said something different every single time, every single time.

There was like one or two that was in the script. And then like the rest, he completely improv. And we laughed and laughed. Like we could not stop laughing because we didn't know what he was gonna say. And then also when he left the room, he had something different to say every time. And so every time he left, you know, I was, I mean we, we were just waiting to hear what he was gonna say and just, we were so happy the camera was not on us.

Cause we not stop laughing. It was so great.

Antoinette Robertson: Oh my God. All of all of the

scenes in the game room were wild.

They were [00:32:00] so wild. Like there were moments where I was supposed to be crying and, and Jermaine Fowler starts making the funniest ad libs, and I have tears in my eyes and I'm trying my best to not like break, but like I'm biting the inside of my cheeks because I know that if I bite the inside of my cheeks, like I'm not, I'm not gonna bust out laughing and ruin the take.

It was just, it was so fun between him and Ex Mayo. Um, Dwayne Perkins is a genius. Um, our creator, writer, co-producer, and uh, actor star. It was just amazing working with them. Um, they're just, All really great energy and it was nice to play off of them and, and, and just kind of, you know, do what we all love to do best.

But, but together with a group of people who love doing what you love to do, it's just, yeah, it was fun. It was so fun.

Jermaine Fowler: Melvin falling off his, uh, set chair. That was

a good one. I got pictures. I do [00:33:00] too.

Melvin Gregg: I got, everybody got pictures and that was just like a, I feel like that moment was just kinda, you know, it's kind of just set the tone, like for just not taking ourselves too serious, just having fun.

So they had us in these little pos that we had to sit our chairs in because it was covid time. So it was like these little bubbles that we sit our chair in. And I don't know, it just wasn't stable for me. It happened a couple times where I caught myself and this one particular time I didn't catch myself.

So it's like I just, I fell back in the chair and uh, by the time I hit the, before I could hit the ground, everybody's phone was out recording me and it was just like, yep, this is it. Taking picture. And it's just like, just having fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, that's the comedy, right? That's the tragedy plus no time at all.

Right?

Jermaine Fowler: Right. It

Melvin Gregg: could have been tragic, but you know, I found the humor in it. But beyond

Jermaine Fowler: that, we all kind of connected on the fact that, uh, we were all going through pivotal moments in our lives and careers, and we [00:34:00] all just. Shared them with each other, whether that that be someone just having a kid, whether that be, uh,

Melvin Gregg: someone, their kids got the same name.

Me, me and yo.

Jermaine Fowler: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. What? Yeah. Crazy. Oh my God. Uh, I remember I was on set and we, man, and it is two different sides of the story. Um, so I was on set and uh, Mel, you gotta go first cause you, it all started with you. I don't remember

Melvin Gregg: how it happened. I just remember we was talking about, oh, we both got a son and it was like, oh, both of my sons were like, I guess one or two at the time.

One maybe. Yeah. They were like the same age,

Jermaine Fowler: you said. Yeah. My, my, my son's name is Mars. I was like, my son's name is Mars. Wait, how old is he? I'm like, at the time he was like two and he was like, mines is two, two. And then, yeah, we knew, we just, we were like, all right, okay, now we know. We don't have to say now, but what a great idea for the film.

Yeah. And what if that was [00:35:00] the case? Yeah. We were laughing about the fact that like, you know what? Yeah. It was hilarious. It, it reminded me that movie Twins in a way with the, and you know, and so me and Mel, uh, before, you know, during the pandemic and before, you know, uh, we, we got, um, into the promotion of the film, we were just yapping about like, how can we make this a reality, like a real, uh, a real idea for a film?

So we, we still got talk about it. It was hilarious, man. It was, it was really funny. Oh my

Julie Harris Oliver: God, that's a great premise. And. And for that to be the name, like that's, that's not a typical

name that you hear everybody having.

Jermaine Fowler: Well, we have different reasons as to why we named our son Mars. My, my son's named after my mother, Marsha.

I just cut off the Ha and Melvin. Yeah.

Melvin Gregg: Um, his mom wanted to name him Mars and I was like, ah, it sounds a little too Hollywood like, like you just named the kid, like apples or peach, whatever. And I was like, [00:36:00] let's just name him Marley and then we can call him Mars. And she was like, cool. But it is weird because his mom name is Bobby, so it's like Bob and then Marley.

So I kind of just run with Mars.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh God, that is so great. Okay. If you have a couple more minutes, can we go back and talk about what was your very first job in this business and how

did you get it?

Grace Byers: Okay. My first. Acting gig. I, although I was still in school, I had done a summer repertory stint and it was at the Santa Rosa rep and we did, it was a circulation of three plays.

It was Cat on a Hot Tin Roof, it was the Wedding St. Singer and I was also in Mame, right. The musical. And so that was the first time that I got a chance and it was great cuz I had, I played three roles and so it was really wonderful to get that chance to be like, okay, so this is what it feels like to be a working actor.

And really just put my heart and soul [00:37:00] into each of those roles and you know, really grateful for that time. Really grateful for that. You know, that preparatory time.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. How fun. Okay. Jermaine Melvin, first Jobs

Jermaine Fowler: man. Okay. Does that mean TV and film or does that, you go back to. Gigs, like

Julie Harris Oliver: just whatever made you feel like, ah, I got a job acting like,

Jermaine Fowler: oh dude.

Yeah. So, uh, Eric Andre at the time, like, like I looked up to that dude, I still look up to him. He is just like an irreverent guy. Doesn't give a shit about, you know, anything but the joke. So I remember he hit me up and said, Hey, whatcha doing, whatcha doing today? I'm gonna, uh, this Renaissance fair in Pennsylvania or something, or Jersey or something like that.

And, uh, I need you to play a runaway slave. And I said, I'll do it. It'll be me, you Byron Bowers and um, Sean O'Connor. And what we're gonna do is run around. [00:38:00] Uh, this, uh, this, this Civil War reenactment camp and pretend to be runaway slaves, and Shawn is gonna chase you around. And, uh, I was like, all right, that sounds good.

And, uh, that was my first gig and I was really excited cause I wasn't getting paid to do anything. And my first credit was to be a runaway slave. Oh my God. And they were like a, we, I remember we ran up to like Abe Blink and the guy playing Abe Blink and like, Hey, what's up? Help?

He was still in character. He was like, oh boy. Hey guys. He couldn't break was, and so, uh, no, it was me and Eric. I don't think Byron was on that one. But anyway, like it was, um, it was my first like, real TV credit and I was just, uh, just flattered that Eric would ask me to do that. So, yeah. Yeah, that was my first, that was my first gig.

Melvin, how about you?

Melvin Gregg: Uh, I don't know if I could compete with that one. So my, my first gig, I was in Virginia. I had just been taking acting classes for a couple years. It's [00:39:00] probably like 2000 and, nah, it wasn't even a couple years. Might have been my first year, uh, like 2008 ish. And it was like an agent who kind of worked through Facebook and she sent me to this audition for the 700 Club.

So if you don't know what the 700 Club is, it's like a Christian broadcast network and they do these episodes where it's like, it's people giving their testimony. So imagine a woman, just like, you know, before I found Jesus, I was living my life, um, partying, doing

drugs, sex.

They would flashback and cut to reenactments of the things that she described.

So in this episode that I did, you know, I guess she was talking about doing drugs and it cut back to like a party in the seventies and you see me with like a big afro, like dressed like a pimp in the seventies and I'm cutting up some fake coke on a mirror and um, it lasted like three seconds and that was my first job and my check was [00:40:00] $25 and I still have it.

I was like, what's the point of cashing it? It'd be worth more if I just keep it. I got a $25 check for my first job. Um, so yeah, it wasn't my moment like I'm here, but it was like, okay, somebody hired

Jermaine Fowler: me. It's like we're getting started. We're

Melvin Gregg: getting started. Yeah.

Jermaine Fowler: Amazing. A slave, a pimping, a slave. Oh my god.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great, great. Antoinette, how about you?

Antoinette Robertson: First job, I would say a gifted man was the first time that I'd actually like, really like actually been paid to do a job. And I remember going into the audition and like I'd been like crying all day. Like I'm one of those people who kind of sit in emotion. I mean, I've learned, I've learned since, but like I was like sitting in the emotion all day and I was like crying, like it was just wild.

Every time I thought about my lines, I would cry. And then I got in the audition, I couldn't cry. Hilarious. And what was amazing about one of the execs at the time, he kind of stopped, um, I believe it was Peter Leto. He [00:41:00] stopped and he, he just kind of knew I had something and like wrote me a role, like wrote me like a small role, like a CoStar role.

And it was so kind of him, cuz he really didn't have to, I was like, I didn't, you know, I didn't, I didn't have it together for the, the lead I guess. But at the time I was so excited. Like I was on set, it was like a honey wagon. It was like a little tiny trailer. I didn't even care. I was just like happy to like finally feel like, okay, wow.

I actually like booked something from an audition, which was really nice.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and that speaks to showing up to the audition as who you are with whatever your special thing is, and they wrote you apart.

Antoinette Robertson: And he wrote me a part. I never forget it. It was like when they came to me to tell me about it, they were like, listen, you didn't get this role, but he really, really, really liked you so much and he truly thinks that you have something.

And so they wrote you in like, you know, a CoStar role. And, and I know it's small, but I was like, oh my God, I'll take it. I was so excited. That's [00:42:00] incredible. Yeah, it was really nice. And it's just been kinda like wild since then. Like I went from that to like recurring guest star on um, zero hour, which happened just like 10 seconds after that happened.

And so it's, it's interesting because like, I guess in this business, like there are a lot of doors. They get slammed in your face and then it just, you just kind of need one to like budge open just a little bit and then it's like a co-sign for everybody else. Now everybody's like, oh, I want her's, Domino's.

For sure. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: What advice do you have for people just trying to get in and do what you do? Uh,

Jermaine Fowler: don't compare yourself. Don't gauge your career off of anyone else's. Just continue to trust the process, whatever your process is. And I guess comparison is the death of progress and of happiness as well. Yeah.

So just say the course, man. That's all I can say. You're the only, like, you're the only you. And be confident in that. [00:43:00] It's very easy to compare yourself when you lose a gig against this person, that person or that person. But there's so many factors in, into why you didn't get it. It's really never about talent ever.

Rarely about talent. Yeah. So, so just, just stay

Melvin Gregg: the course and just, but continue to work your craft. Don't expect to go somewhere without talent. You need to be able to fall back on that. Um,

Jermaine Fowler: but not just that needs to be the

Julie Harris Oliver: given. Yeah. You need, and then it's not

Jermaine Fowler: about you. Yeah. Right. You,

Melvin Gregg: you need that first.

Just the echo jermaine's point. Nobody could be you as good as you can be yourself. Uh, so find out how to make that work for you. You know, a lot of times people think acting is shape shifting and becoming somebody completely different. It's like, it's not necessarily like you can find characters close to you and find a way to play 'em in the most honest way and add texture to it and make it exciting.

So don't worry about learning all of these crazy accents and being something completely different, just. That's something you do later on after you establish yourself. Establish yourself and get yourself through the door. [00:44:00] But if you can get cast to something that's close to you that you're familiar with, that you understand that you'll be able to shed light into this character in a way different from everybody else, you'll have an advantage.

So to run away from that is kind of the, um, you know, show your superpowers. But another thing Jermaine said too was just trust your trust, your path and your process. Everybody's timing is different and it's specific to them. And you know what I mean? It is, there's no one way to do it. I remember, um, I had a acting coach, Dustin Felder, um, rest in peace, Justin, Dustin Felder.

He passed away not too long ago, but him and a good friend of mines, um, a good friend of mine, Keith Powers, we were in the same class and Keith was booking like everything. And I was like, damn, man. Like, when am I ever gonna book anything? And the fact that it was my friend kind of just made it like it was so close to home, I'm like, what am I doing wrong?

And he was just like, Everybody has a different path with a different pace. It's just like, stay the course, keep working, keep doing your things, stay true to yourself, and like your time will [00:45:00] come. And I kind of just remember that every time I think about, you know, the times where I was getting discouraged, it's just like I just had to trust my, my process and the pacing of that path.

And, you know, things will come when they're meant to come. And in hindsight, I wasn't ready for the things that I thought I wanted at the time.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's so true. Grace,

Grace Byers: what would you add to that? Oh my goodness. Um, I would say that everybody's journey is different. I, I think what makes the acting journey a little bit more difficult is because everyone, we would all love a formula.

We would all love, you know, like, you do this and this and this, and then this will happen. A checklist just not the case. It really is not. And so I think the number one, number one on my checklist would be to know that your journey can be and probably will be different. And that's okay. Um, it's, it can be a little scary, but it's also very much okay.

Because even now, when you talk [00:46:00] to a bunch, a bunch of actors, you know, we, we all talk about how we got here. We all got here differently. Yeah. So I would say just get rid of the whole formula bit, uh, because you just don't know where this whole journey is going to take you. But then the second part I would say, which I'm a big proponent of, is training.

Because I feel like talent will get you in the room, can get you in the room, but the training will sustain you in your career. Career. And especially if you wanna do, whether it's theater or camera work, you, you need that stamina. You need that sustenance. You need to be able to really have the techniques and the tools to be able to hold you when you're doing.

However many shows on Broadway a week or when you are doing that, take again and again and again and again, and they're trying to do it from fi 5,000 angles, and you have to cry for every single one of them. Right? And so I really believe that the schooling and the training that I got, and it really like, to me it's like go wherever you feel [00:47:00] led to go.

But the training that I got really helps to build a foundation for me, and I dig deep into that foundation so that I can prep for that. It also helps too, when you have to do an audition for tomorrow, it's like, okay, well what do I do and how do I do it? The training is everything. It helps you stay ready.

So your journey may not look like everyone else is, and that's okay. And really stay stuck in that training ground for yourself so that it can help to sustain you.

Antoinette Robertson: Excellent.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, it's really hard to wing it for a long term

Antoinette Robertson: career.

Grace Byers: That's right. That's right. Or, or you can do something once or twice, but then you don't really have the tools that you need in order to keep doing it again or to keep you going for so long.

And, and I can just see the benefits of that even now in my

Antoinette Robertson: career. Yeah. Really smart.

Jermaine Fowler: That's great advice. Be prepared. You're gonna get a moment. You're gonna get a moment. Yeah. Be prepared. Be prepared when you get it. Yeah, man. Cause you gonna have to deliver. You're gonna have to deliver. Be prepped. [00:48:00] Uh, when you go on set.

Know your lines. Know your lines. I don't care if it's two lines. Murder every mo every moment that you get, if it's small to big, it's no small moments. It's always, someone's always looking out. Someone's always looking. Someone's always looking, someone's always noticing. So make sure you kill every little thing that you get.

I don't care if it's an extra role. That's how I started. I was an extra on college humor, like little vignettes or sketches and stuff, and I, I, I, I was getting 400, no 100 bucks, uh, an extra part. And that was my, that was my rent every week, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I built up, then somebody noticed me and was like, do you want a speaking role?

And I said, I would love a speaking role, and the next thing I know, they're writing sketches for me. So it, that's how it starts. Just be ready, man. Be ready.

Antoinette Robertson: Just make sure that you're completely obsessed with it. Like if you're completely obsessed with constantly pursuing growth in this industry, if you're completely obsessed with the art of it, if you're completely obsessed with trying to lend [00:49:00] yourself and your gift to this industry just to make it better, then I feel like constant.

That alone in that in and of itself becomes its own worlds of like rewarding, and then all the other things happen. But if you don't truly love it, there's so much rejection, there's so many nos, there's so many people that are gonna tell you that you're not worth X, Y, and Z. You just truly need to hold on to the fact that if it's something that you really love to do and you could see yourself doing it, even if you couldn't get, you won't get paid $1 for it.

If you love it that much, then you should definitely continue to pursue it and know that hearing no now doesn't mean not ever. You just have to keep pushing because it's, it's literally a line. It's like it's a line and there are people stepping out of it every day. And if you just stay in line, it's gonna be your turn.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have

Antoinette Robertson: asked you?

Jermaine Fowler: I mean, dude, if it's, [00:50:00] uh, about, if this is for, if this, if this is like a podcast for up and coming actors, I'm trying to think of the questions they would ask me. Cause they're probably gonna ask something about agents.

Antoinette Robertson: Probably. Yeah.

How'd you get an agent?

Jermaine Fowler: Oh man. Uh, not looking for one. Don't look for one. Don't

look

Julie Harris Oliver: for you. No one wants to hear that answer.

Jermaine Fowler: No one people, people hate hearing that. You can't, don't look for an agent. Don't look for a manager. They'll find you. There's always gonna be showcases though. There'll be showcases where you can like show what you got and there's gonna be people in the audience, but the less you, it's gonna sound really, really, really crazy.

But I'm gonna be real. When you're not looking for an agent or a manager, you'll find the best one. And I feel like when. This industry is like high school. It's just like high school and no one wants a needy person when it's really sexy and attractive when you don't need nobody. When you have a product that people want, when you building your own sketches online or social media or wherever it is, people are gonna find that and look, look [00:51:00] you up and find you.

But when you're out seeking for a manager or an agent, it gives 'em so much power and they ain't gonna do nothing for you. So I will say, make that a mutual sort of, um, connection. But when you're out like looking for one, it don't really happen. But when you're not looking, that's when it should, that's when it's gonna feel like, you know what I mean?

Like a, a partnership. A collaboration, which what it is. So that's my advice for looking for or finding or connecting with a manager agent, whoever that is. When you can choose

Julie Harris Oliver: them as much as they're choosing you.

Jermaine Fowler: Right. Honestly, it's, it's how it is man. It's high school. This whole industry is high school.

So be the person people are looking for and make sure your project, uh, what is that Jay-Z said? Uh, make sure your product is humming.

Melvin Gregg: Yeah. You gotta, you gotta create value for yourself. Once you, uh, you show that you're valuable, people wanna come in and, you know, be involved

Jermaine Fowler: and make, they wanna pretend like they found you or like they want to be the one that discovered you.

They discovered you. Yeah. Oh my God. When you overnight success. Yeah, man, I've been, I've been busting my ass for [00:52:00] years before I found anybody. So like, that's what people wanna take credit for that. So make sure that credit is worth it in some sort of way. Yeah. As far as the Asian

Melvin Gregg: thing, I agree you gotta build your own value and be seen as value and then people would, you know, put their bid in and then you just find a relationship that's mutually beneficial and just understand the business of it.

You know, if things aren't making sense for you, you have to move on. It's just the business. I was there when we were at A B F F. A guy ran into me, A guy didn't run into me. I was at McDonald's cause I was buying like food for like a homeless guy. I'm only saying that because I don't eat McDonald's. Um, and I'm not trying to cosign it, but, uh, it was a guy in there and he was like talking about my Birkenstocks and he was like, where you from?

I was like, la. He was like, oh, what you doing out there? Making movies? Just joking. I was like, yeah, actually. Um, and then he was like, do you have an agent? And he kind of just took a different tone as if he was gonna like, school me this up. And I was like, yeah. And um, I was like, [00:53:00] who's your agent? And I, I told him, he was like, how'd you get them?

It happens all the time. They, they, they saw me as valuable. Well, how'd you do that? It's just like, just work. And then he went on to tell me his, his story. But the thing is, just like Jermaine said, just work until you build enough value and you know somebody will take value in you. Like my way of doing that with social media, I couldn't get the agents that I want or the opportunities that I, I wanted or felt like I deserved.

So I had to build value doing something else. And you know what I mean? Doing social media, I was able to garner a, a large audience that in return became valuable. And then studios, not studios, but agencies saw that as valuable. So cool. I could use this to leverage me into getting the auditions that I want.

And then, okay, cool. Now I could use this agency to leverage me into getting to this other agency that I feel like would service, um, my needs a little better. So just kind of creating leverage, um, and just understanding your path and being intentional with everything you [00:54:00] do. You can't sit around and wait for an opportunity or wait for something to happen.

You have to, um, put your focus and your energy towards it. Be intentional, like I said. But when it comes to art, you have to make decisions based on what fulfills you artistically. Um, you can't move with the money, at least early on. Later on. Once you, you got enough leverage, you can, you know, sometimes do a money play, then do another play that, you know what I mean, feeds your soul.

But early on, you have to stay true to your art because chasing dollars is not gonna lead you to where you wanna be. And the money's gonna be gone, and then you're gonna be washed out. So it's like, stay true to your heart. Um, stay true to your heart and, um, put everything in it. Passion is things that you'll do for free.

Jermaine Fowler: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Grace, what is a nugget of wisdom you

would leave us with?

Grace Byers: Um, I, I guess one thing that I'd love to add to is that it's so important that when you're in this industry to have your [00:55:00] own foundation of belief in self, right? Yeah. And so for, for different people it means different things, but for me it's God and I, and I will say that because.

You know, there are some days that I, you know, don't know what to do. I don't know where to go. I don't know that because there is no blueprint. You know, I, I don't know how to navigate. But when I really can look deep down inside and be led by spirit, I really feel like those are the moments that are, that have always been key moments in my life.

And I think it's also important too, because you get a lot of rejection in this industry. Yeah. You know, there are a lot of nos before you get a yes. A lot of nos. And so you have to be, you have to know who you are and you have to have something else that you believe in, in order to hold you grounded so that when people are telling you no, you know that they're not telling you no.

You know what I'm saying? And so I, I think that that is just vital. It's really vital. Otherwise, you may find yourself falling away and really questioning whether or not you really wanna [00:56:00] do this when you know you do.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's drill down on that a little bit. The way you said, they're not saying no to you, or,

what did

you

say?

Say that.

Grace Byers: Even when they say no to you, they're no.

Julie Harris Oliver: Exactly that because you know, it's, I don't know if you know, starting out that it has so little to do with actually you. That's right. And who you are deeply, right? That's right. Can you? That's right.

Can you expand on that a little bit?

Grace Byers: Yes. Like even when you're doing a lot of auditions, I think a lot of times we think, okay, what would they like to see in this?

Right. How would they like to see the characters? You know what, at the end of the day, they're not really sure what they wanna see. They have something written and they have an idea, but they're actually much more open to you being committed in a way that is truthful and organic. And they'll go, wait a minute.

We never thought of the character that way, but now we do. A big, a big part of that for me was Harlem. Like when, um, when I was playing Quinn, right? And so when I auditioned for Quinn, I was like, I don't know if this is [00:57:00] how they, they want it to be read, but this is how I feel like she needs to be. And so I just committed to that.

And they were like, we never really saw moments of her like that, but now we love this. And now we're, you know, so I, I say like, Really commit to when you're doing auditions and all that stuff, really, really commit to your organic truth with this character. Like the truth that, that you wanna take with this character and submit that.

And if that's not what they wanna see and that's not what they want and whatever, that's fine. But you did a heck of a job and I promise you, you've imprinted yourself in the minds of these casting directors and of these directors, um, because that's what really matters, that you're doing amazing art. Not just, oh, let me do what I think they want me to do.

You know? Cuz then you'll always the moving bullseye. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Make a choice

even

if it's the wrong one at the end of the day.

Grace Byers: Right. Cuz even then, like if you're committed to it and it feels truthful, it can be argued at whether or not it's the wrong one. You know what I mean? Yeah, [00:58:00] yeah.

Jermaine Fowler: And don't be afraid to make mistakes.

Early in your career is the perfect time to experiment, figure out what is right for you, whether it is social media, comedy, YouTube, comedy, maybe not even comedy, whatever it is, theater. I don't know what it is. Just sit down and really think like, you know, try it all. Play with try it all. I never, I never, it doesn't matter right now.

Yeah. Oh, I ain't know that. I never

Melvin Gregg: done comedy.

Jermaine Fowler: Nothing. I didn't even know that. I thought you did.

Melvin Gregg: Nah. I was never funny. I was never the class clown. I never made jokes. I just kind of kept it myself. But I saw comedy was working online, so I was like, shit, let me try to figure out how to do this thing. And I kind of just taught it to myself in a way.

Jermaine Fowler: Now I love it. That's exactly the point. That's exactly my point. Just, just figure out what works for you. If it don't work, you know, whatever. Uh, go to the next thing. But really sit down and figure out what it is that you wanna do. Come up with a game plan and just throw everything at the wall, you know, and have a good time do it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Antoinette, any other nugget of [00:59:00] wisdom you'd like to share?

Antoinette Robertson: Um, for artists out there, uh, Understand that it is a tough road, but it is very rewarding because I remember being told for a very long time that my dreams didn't make sense, and they truly don't have to make sense to anyone but you. And so I would, I would definitely encourage anyone who's second guessing whether or not they should or should not pursue their dreams because you know, like external forces are telling them it doesn't make sense.

Just know it doesn't need to make sense to anyone but you. If you can see it, you can be it. If, if you can think it, you can make it happen. And, and so long as you understand that and you hold on to that little voice in your head that's telling you, you can do it and say, screw all the naysayers, you'll definitely achieve your dreams.

You just have to keep going after 'em. Preach.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm gonna leave it right there. You guys are [01:00:00] the best. You the be. Thank you so much, Melvin, Greg, Jermaine Fowler, Grace Byers, Antoinette Robertson, thank you so much for being on Catch a Break.

Antoinette Robertson: Thank you so much for having me.

Grace Byers: Thank you so much for having me.

Jermaine Fowler: Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch a Break. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Grace Byers, Jermaine Fowler, Antoinette Robertson, and Melvin Greg for bringing all the tea and special thanks to curvy.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Please check out our website at catch or break podcast.com and follow us on all the social media.

Catch or Break is produced in partnership with Cash Light Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Jocelyn. Thanks for listening. Be sure to mark your calendars for July 13th. That's when Project Greenlight and our Project Greenlight season starts dropping.

Next up, if we're very lucky, we'll have one more interview with a key person from the Blackening. Fingers crossed. I hope this helps you to catch a break.[01:01:00]