EP 411: The Composer and the Sound Designer

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch A Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. The presenting sponsor of Season four of Catch A Break.

As Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages, an amazing new back lot featuring New York and LA Downtown Street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices, along with post-production space dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all their clients.

Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need and budget. Find them at santaclaritastudios.com. This is the last episode in our Project Greenlight [00:01:00] series where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. I hope you've enjoyed this series as much as I have.

If you want more, you can go to our website at catchabreakpodcast.com for pictures and transcripts. We're already working on season five and we have some very interesting episodes lined up for you, so be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. For this final episode, I sat down with Jeff Pitts, the sound designer and Haim Mazar, the composer of Gray Matter. We talked about how the music and sound work together, how they differentiate, and it struck me how amazing it is to talk to people who are able to put words to things that are actually very difficult to talk about. Okay, have a listen.

Welcome to Catch A Break. Jeff Pitts is a primetime Emmy award-winning sound designer, originally from Akron, Ohio, Jeff came to LA in 2007 and began his career working on indie films like Battle for Tara, Wackness and the World's Greatest Dad. Since then, his work has [00:02:00] expanded to include higher profile productions, including Blair Witch, Death Note, the Guest and You're Next, plus numerous Lego franchises including Hero Factory, Lego Atlantic, Lego Jurassic World, Lego Guardians of the Galaxy and the Ninjago 4D Ride at Lego Land. Like your Mr. Lego.

Jeff will go to extremes to get good sounds. He's combed through junkyards to find the perfect sounds of machinery and scrap metal, followed Route 66 into the Mojave to collect the sounds of ghost towns, and spent weeks in Tokyo, Seattle, and New York City recording their soundscapes. He loves curating and designing interesting sounds and presenting them in a way that emphasizes the art, the content.

A lot of the time people think they won't notice the sound design, but they definitely notice when it's wrong. Welcome, Jeff.

Jeff Pitts: Well, thank you so much. That's very nice of you.

Julie Harris Oliver: We also have Haim Mazar. Did I say that right?

Haim Mazar: Perfect.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. He's the composer behind a wide array of musical projects, including film scores, TV shows, commercials, and live stage productions.

His original music credits include the comedy series, Woke for Hulu, additional music for the [00:03:00] Nicholas Cage Meta Comedy, the Unbearable Weight of Massive Talent, and the Hip Hop infused score for the Netflix series Sneakerheads. Haim also scored the biopic thriller, the Iceman starring Michael Shannon, Adam Robetil's, critically acclaimed indie horror, the Taking of Deborah Logan, and action thriller, I Am Wrath, starring John Travolta and Christopher Maloney. Haim also composes and produces music for the Walt Disney theme Parks, most notably the stage show version of Moana, the upcoming Princess in the Frog retheme of Splash Mountain, and most recently, he completed the nighttime spectacular Believe Sea of Dreams for Tokyo Disney Sea.

In addition to his film scoring work, Haim an associate professor at Berkeley College of Music where he enjoys teaching film scoring classes from his Los Angeles studio. Welcome.

Haim Mazar: Thank you Julie. It's so great to be here. Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're both doing theme park rides.

Jeff Pitts: That's kind of weird, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. That's a weird coincidence.

Jeff Pitts: I didn't know that when we were filming.

Julie Harris Oliver: Alright, our first question here is, what is your first job and how did you get it? [00:04:00] Who wants to go first?

Jeff Pitts: I can go first.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Jeff?

Jeff Pitts: My first job was interning at a post studio. Post audio studio in Santa Monica. And so I was basically interning and then became a tech at the studio.

And then from there it springboarded into all this other stuff.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is that always what you wanted to do?

Jeff Pitts: This? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sound was always my interest. I mean, I wasn't, I didn't always wanna be like a composer or, , anything like that. I was like very interested in like weird sounds and like, just, that's where I, my brain gravitated towards when I was younger.

Julie Harris Oliver: So how did you know that was a job?

Jeff Pitts: I did not know that was a job. Yeah. I did not know. And so I did all of this and learned about different recording techniques and synthesis and all these things were just, just studio stuff. And then, I thought all there was was like music recording and that kind of thing.

And then I kind of like had a moment where I was like, kind of like, oh [00:05:00] my God, what am I doing? I've like spent all my life learning this and I don't know what I'm gonna do with this knowledge I have now. And then I started like looking, where can I apply all this stuff? And it was like, okay, well you can do sound for video games or you could do, , sound movies and shorts and things like that.

So I just kind of started dabbling my feet in those different things.

Julie Harris Oliver: So were you, were you into music at all or was it strictly like sound?

Jeff Pitts: No, I was into music. Yeah, for sure. But I didn't, I don't think I wanted to be, I'm not like a trained musician or anything like that. So the focus for me was more on processes and just weird unique sounds and stuff like that.

And like how to capture those.

Julie Harris Oliver: So were you nerding out on music before you were thinking about applying it to film and television? Yeah, I think's what I just heard.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. Yeah. Nerding out on even just like reading about different recording techniques or like, even just, just simple things like learning, like what is an aux, you know, all of the stuff.

I kind of like self-taught, so I didn't really go to school for [00:06:00] anything, so I just kind of like hacked my way through the entire forest, so to speak. I kind of figured everything out, so it was just kind of, um, everything just kind of came as it came and, and I learned it. So that's how I went. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then you started learning on the job. I'm thinking for the person who's out there listening who is like super sound into it

Jeff Pitts: Super sound dork, nerd.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. I wasn't gonna say those words. Yeah. But yeah.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. I mean, if you are that person, then you're a good candidate for, , working on audio post.

Julie Harris Oliver: Are there tons of, of you out there, or not so much?

Jeff Pitts: I mean, are there tons of us? I mean, I'd say that Well, yeah. I mean if you go on, you know, Facebook or anywhere, you're gonna find a whole collection of those people. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, there's a good number of people out there that are like that. And I think a lot of 'em have different, you know, I think there's, it's pretty dynamic.

Like there's some guys that spend their whole careers like recording cars and there's some guys that do editorial for podcasts or, you know, [00:07:00] and it's just like very eclectic. Mm-hmm. . So,

Julie Harris Oliver: yeah. Okay. So you can get super niche and do all the things?

Jeff Pitts: I can get super niche and do a lot of the things. , I think there's like some stuff that I've purposely not learned how to do.

Like I really have no interest in editing dialogue, so I don't really put myself out as somebody that can do that work, cuz I don't wanna do it.

Julie Harris Oliver: Duely noted. Editing this podcast myself.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. You're gonna do it .

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, fine. All right. We are sharing this podcast. That's Haim. Let's bring you in. What was your first job and how did you get it?

Haim Mazar: My first job was working as a, a composer assistant to a composer, mentor, , named John Frazelle. And I got that job right after I graduated from Berkeley College of Music, and I moved out to LA from Boston to La. This was at the end of 2008. And through a recommendation from the dean of the film scoring department at the time who I made very aware that I'm looking [00:08:00] for an assistant position kind of to get, get started and have some sort of it into the business.

And with a lot of luck and timing, I got a call from him right when I moved out to LA and he offered me to come in for an interview and I did, and I got the job and I started that same day that that was, , that was my real school of like how to work in the business and how to, how to write a film score.

And I worked with John for about two years and we did an array of projects, movies and TV shows, and, , I got to see everything, you know, kind of like, kind of like riding, driving, like a Formula One car, but you're, you're next to the driver and you get to see everything. So that was great. And then John, after that, he, after about a year or so, he was kind enough to basically recommend me for this smaller indie film. We, at the time, we were doing, I think this movie, the these two like Sony Screen Jams movie called, one was Legion, [00:09:00] another one was the Roommate, and John was just really busy and he got a call by, I think it was the assistant picture editor that was cutting this kind of smaller directed dvd. Back then they were directed DVDs.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now a DVD is, uh,

Haim Mazar: Exactly , you can look it up. . , yeah, and it was, it was like a little too small for John, and also he was like so slammed. So basically what he did is, like, he vouched for me. He said like, you know, he talked to the producers and he said like, I, I can't do it, but like I'm, I have this great guy that works with me and he's gonna do the whole score for my studio and I'm gonna oversee it and, , it's gonna be great.

You know? Then he hung up the phone and he said like, you know, if you screw it up, , you're never gonna work in this town again, buddy. So you better get this right.

Julie Harris Oliver: No pressure. No pressure.

Haim Mazar: Which, which is what? What it was kind of a passing of the baton, I guess, because John worked for a, a composer named James Newton Howard, who's like a really famous a-list, big a-list composer.

[00:10:00] And, , that's kind of how John's career started, is that there was this big movie and James couldn't do it. He was busy like doing like The Fugitive or some big movie like that, and he basically told the producers, you know, I'm gonna write the theme, but John here is gonna do the whole score and the feed have set up.

I'm gonna do it for free. Which, you know, it's like crazy to, to say that to guys like that for someone. But that's, so John kind of did the same thing for me and I'm very grateful for that to this day. So that was, that was my first job, you know? Wow. The, the work with John and then later on, getting my own first solo composer credit, you know, through, through, basically through that relationship.

Julie Harris Oliver: So that referral worked out?

Haim Mazar: Yeah, definitely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. This brought up a thousand questions for me. First of all, it sounds like you studied composing for film in school.

Haim Mazar: I did.

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you always know that's what you wanted to do?

Haim Mazar: I, no, I grew up playing music from a very young age, so I played piano from like age five or six, and I was classically trained and then kind of made a [00:11:00] switch to jazz.

And I grew up mostly playing this was, I, I grew up in Israel and I, I went to music school my whole life. Then eventually in Israel you gotta do, , military service. So I, I was accepted to be in a, in the, , military dance as a musical director. That was like a really great experience, kind of like, you know, being on stage all the time, doing a lot of arrangements and working with professional musicians that were like military reserves.

And after that, I got a scholarship to go to, , to Berkeley basically as a jazz piano player. And my, my whole passion was about being on stage and playing jazz.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're gonna be performer.

Haim Mazar: As, as a performer. Yeah. And, and, , although I, I've done some arranging and a little bit of conducting and producing here and there, but I was really kind of like a keyboard piano player.

And then I got to Berkeley and I got to see like some of the worlds like finest, like top 1% talent. Mm-hmm. . And also at the end of the day, you know, it's funny cuz like jazz is kind of like, it's a, it's, it's, it's an American music. So, [00:12:00] and as an Israeli I bring to jazz a lot of, a lot of fusion, a lot of, a lot of things that are maybe more unique, but in the core of it, swing and playing jazz it just, you know, at least for me, when I saw people who, like for example, if you grew up going to, going to church and playing church music, your swing and your field's gonna be a whole lot different than someone like me who grew up in Israel. . So for various reasons, and also just seeing like unbelievable musicians and also the, the music business changing.

I, I kind of gave up trying to be a performer and al, almost like at the same time when I was working at the library, this book about film scoring filled in my lap and I read about, you know, John Williams and Steven Spielberg work together and how you can utilize a whole symphony orchestra in the, in the, in the score.

And, , there was kinda like a eureka moment and I went and got, you know, my major declared as film scoring kind of like the next day. And that was the beginning of the journey. So that, that was the first time I like realized what this whole [00:13:00] thing film scoring thing, gig is.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like it all kind of came together.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was like from that moment I was like, that's what I wanna do. Anything related to that.

Julie Harris Oliver: So when you're assisting someone on a film, what parts are you doing? Are you arranging, are you recording yourself? Are you getting to compose pieces of it? Are you taking the theme and doing variations? Like what is, what do you do?

Haim Mazar: A little bit of all those things that you, you just mentioned. Uh, it, it really depends on the, , position and there's no one alike. It, it depends on who you work for and, and what their needs are. But yes, I mean, , usually you kind of start doing, kinda helping around the studio and answering phone calls and-

Julie Harris Oliver: Day one, get coffee.

Haim Mazar: Yeah, exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Day two, add violin to this score.

Haim Mazar: Kind of, I mean, it can happen really quickly. It also depends on your skills and how many other assistants work in that, you know, facility. So I think like with any, any assistant position, you know, you, there's a relationship there and, , first of all, you have to be, I think in anything, you know, I'm sure same in your field, Jeff.[00:14:00]

You gotta be a nice person. You gotta be somebody that is, that people enjoy hanging out with. And, , that's kind of like the, the start of it. And if that's right. And then you, the other thing is to gain the other person's trust. The partner's trust. , and if you do that, then they are gonna give you more and more responsibilities.

And also the, the way I looked at it working for John, it was like, I wanna help your business, so to speak, succeed, you know? Cause I think that your success will be my success because if I'm gonna be, if you're gonna be successful, I'm probably gonna get a little bit more opportunities and-

Julie Harris Oliver: Help me help you.

Haim Mazar: Help you. Exactly. So, you know, it's, it's, it's this kind of a, a kind of a, a whole inclusive approach and really diving into the gig. And I wasn't doing any other jobs when I was working with him either. So, yeah. That, that's, , that helps looking at it as a long-term opportunity as opposed to like, oh, I just want to like work, you know, with this guy for a month and get the credit and leave.

Yeah. , cuz cuz there's you, you have to learn how people work and how you know, and how, how, how they [00:15:00] like everything done. And that there's a long learning curve basically. So when you take on an assistant position, you, if you come to it, okay and kind of letting, letting the person know that, hey, I'm okay working for you for the next 2, 3, 4, 5 years even.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like it's an apprenticeship.

Haim Mazar: Exactly. Yeah. You know, and you, and that, that, that becomes your school and how you, how you learn, you learn how to do things from that what, what to do, what not to do also. So yeah, it's a very interesting experience to go through.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. And when you're first starting out, you really need to like throw yourself into the opportunities that are given.

Yeah. And you know, you might say to yourself, ah, this isn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to be, you know, over here doing this thing. But, , there's time for that.

Julie Harris Oliver: This is when you get to that thing.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, exactly. You, the fact that you even got an opportunity is that's like, you're already, you're already one out of 10.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's a first miracle.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Haim Mazar: Totally.

Jeff Pitts: It's a first miracle. Yeah. Yeah. So, so don't squander that because the next one might not happen. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Let's talk about Gray Matter now. So knowing [00:16:00] Meko was coming out of, you know, shorts and kind of out of where she had done everything herself Right. Or had a very clear vision. We're pouring the wine, we are settling in here. And knowing she didn't always like have a team, you know, to do the sound and the composing and all the pieces. I'm curious how, I'm assuming I'm making this up now as I'm talking, but that you read the script. And you start to hear what you think is important or you start designing your head around it.

Yeah. A is that true? What does that look sound like? And then how do you kind of present that to the director? I'm gonna ask you the same question in a minute Haim, so you get a minute to think about it.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. The, well, you know, reading scripts is like a pretty important part of the gig that I didn't really realize was gonna be a big important part of the gig.

So there's really two things that I want to come up with when I read a script. One is, are there any unique props in the script that I need to record? Either sequestering that specific prop [00:17:00] from the set, or maybe finding it and recording it myself.

Julie Harris Oliver: For example.

Jeff Pitts: So on death note, there was a lot of, like thematically in the movie, there's this book, right?

And that book had, it was integral to the film. You'd write in it and people die and stuff like that. So in my mind, an integral part of the design was to use paper. So either tearing it or ripping it or doing, you know, doing things like that with, with paper and then to springboard off that, I was like, oh, not just any paper, let's go get handmade Japanese paper.

Julie Harris Oliver: As you do.

Jeff Pitts: As you would, yeah. So then I went to, which is cool to be in LA cuz there's like a place, I think it's in Santa Monica, it's like right next to like all the train tracks and stuff down there, and they have like a bunch of handmade Japanese paper. So I went down there and you like got all that and then I was able to record all that stuff and I'm like flapping it and tearing it. And some like cloth really, cuz it's like so like thick and you know.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you're reading it thinking, what does that book sound like? [00:18:00] Right?

Jeff Pitts: Right. So you go, okay, that book is gonna be a critical item. And I think I did get that. Did I get the book in that I might have gotten that specific book to record.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like opening shredding .

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Things you wouldn't even think about watching a movie.

Jeff Pitts: No. And nor should you, you're you're watching a movie, so-

Julie Harris Oliver: If you're doing it right, you're not thinking about it.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. You don't, you don't need to think about that. It should just be done. So that's one aspect of it is like these, and I guess I kind of tied the two together in there.

But, and then the other aspect is to say like, so like, like to roll it back to Gray Matter real quick. When I read the script for Gray Matter. There was really nothing in there that I was like, oh, that prop needs to be recorded, because there's nothing, there's nothing about what that is. But the secondary ideas are like, just, just concepts that you might think of by reading the script.

So for instance, with like Gray Matter, there's like a part in the script, in the pool-

Haim Mazar: Spoilers!

Jeff Pitts: When you know everything's falling apart. And I remember like a line in the script that was [00:19:00] like something about, oh, this thing is coming up through, or, or whatever. So my ideas were kind of like springboarding off the idea that like they're all using these psychic powers, but like there might be something else there that's kind of like, not everybody even knows what that is. It's just kind of like, like a, a larger power than what any of them are using. They're just like playing around with this thing that's like, that's like serious and I like stuff like that.

So that actually helped springboard some of my design work, cuz I was, I was doing the design work thinking like, okay, there's this like entity, this entity being thing that's like, yeah, keep using it. Like we're getting closer, you know, like, The, the idea that like everybody in the movie is like messing around with a thing, they just come in and just like swallow the planet.

You know, like, like that's where my brain tends to go with that kind of stuff.

Julie Harris Oliver: So are you foreshadowing that with like little bits of that sound early on?

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, so there's like design stuff I [00:20:00] did in the film that's kind of like whispery and kind of like, you know, whatever. And , and that's all based on my ideas of having this, like, this being that they're all oblivious to. That's like trying to push through and like find their way through. By them using their psychic energy. This thing is now getting closer to where it wants to be, which is on this side. So Gray Matter two, I don't know. Yeah. But-

Julie Harris Oliver: So then you go to Meko and say, Hey, I have this idea?

Jeff Pitts: Well, no, not so much like that idea. I mean, I definitely did bring that up to her and she called me a nerd, but and I did-

Julie Harris Oliver: I'll take it. Thank you.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. But it worked, you know? Yeah. It was in, it was in the movie. So, yeah. I mean, it's, it's on a project like this, you know, you read the script and then really you're gonna start working. You do bring those ideas in, in a meeting.

Like, you know, you'd have a spotting session or something like that, and you'd say, Hey, I would think, this would be a cool idea, or whatever, you know, like for instance, with all the magic moving hands and things like that, like the sound, [00:21:00] I knew that the sound for that stuff had to be, feel solid, you know what I'm saying?

It couldn't feel ethereal. It had to feel like, like, like a ball, almost like a thing. Because it's like knocking people around the room and stuff, and it's like, you don't want it to. You know,

Julie Harris Oliver: So it has some weight.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. You want the, you want the sound to feel like, oh my God, what is that? You know? And so that was another idea that I got from reading the script. I was like, can't just be a bunch of people waving their hands and Harry Potter stuff flying, you know, can't do that. You know?

Julie Harris Oliver: Is there some time travel in it too?

Haim Mazar: Well, so there's like teleportation.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, that's what I'm thinking of.

Haim Mazar: So there's teleportation.

Jeff Pitts: Teleportation.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you for teleportation. I haven't seen the movie, just so you know.

Jeff Pitts: That's fine.

Julie Harris Oliver: Was there a specific sound for that?

Jeff Pitts: Oh yeah, for sure. There's like a kind of a tremallo kind of thing, but again, forceful, cause I wanted it to feel like this is physical stuff, but underneath all of these, like, there's like a couple physical things.

So there's like people throwing people across the room or whatever, like. And then there's the, [00:22:00] teleportation. And for both those sounds, I wanted it to feel solid. And then there's the other sounds too, which is just like, you know, the surrealness that's pushing in on them. And for that stuff I wanted it to feel like, you know, Kafu is about to push through or whatever.

Julie Harris Oliver: How are you making these sounds?

Jeff Pitts: How am I making them? Well that's a great question.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is that the secret magic?

Jeff Pitts: It's not secret.

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean, are you doing it on at keyboard? Are you doing foley? Are you throwing stuff against a wall?

Jeff Pitts: Yes. Yeah. Like all of those things are true. So you're either recording sounds, you are manipulating, sounds that you've previously recorded or that are pulled from libraries even. And so, you know, for stuff like, I mean, I like to design stuff to picture, so I'll set up processes and then manipulate those processes against the picture. Some people like to just like, they get a cool process going and then they just go hog wild with it and they just make a bunch of-

Julie Harris Oliver: Why d you call it a process?

Jeff Pitts: So like a process with anything. So if you're, if you're designing a sound, let's say that you [00:23:00] are designing, like when I did Blair Witch, I used the kema to, to make the voice of the, of the witch who was transforming into a tree. So I did, I took the kema, which is a sound design DSP box, and I resynthesized a female scream and wood creaking.

And then I started to morph those things together. So they were like, it's, you know, doing this weird stop. But I put all that stuff on an x y controller so I could do it against picture. So I'm like manipulating how this stuff is like changing, but I'm watching, I'm watching real frames, right. While I do it.

So that tends to be like how I enjoy working. So like with this movie, you know, if somebody's like blasting somebody with their telekinesis powers. I am designing that sound in that moment right there. And so, like, that's, a mixture of different processes. , you know, so there's only so many processes you can do.

You know, you can either, add reverb to things, you can reverse that reverb. You can do delays, you can do [00:24:00] compression, equalization, pitch shifting. These are basically delays. This is like basic, basically everything is this kind of stuff. So if you have all that kind of stuff happening, what's your, what are your input sounds?

How do those things interact with all those other things? What is the chain of events? You know, are you compressing all the sound after you do it? You know, it's like with the teleport sound as a really good like tremallo effect, which is like, like that kind of thing. But then I smashed it with compression so that it was like still dipping.

You preserve that, but you're getting like some, some grit and some compression at the top levels of the sound.

Julie Harris Oliver: This is so interesting. Gosh. So when you start a project and you start with the script, how do you approach it?

Haim Mazar: So I think there's a difference between re, reacting, , to the script and reacting to what's actually filmed and what the end, end result was.

Oh, yeah, good for you. So that, that's like a lot of times I'll read the script. It, it's kind of nice to do both. to be honest. But [00:25:00] a lot of times what's on the script is not what's, what they actually filmed and what they filmed is not necessarily what is gonna be put together in the edit. So, I, I try, I, I get, I do whatever I can get my hands on, so, and, they did send me the script for Gray Matter, which I read.

And, my, you know, the, the first thing you do, obviously when I read it, I do do think about music and I, and sometimes music will be referenced in script itself. Sometimes it won't. But either way I try to get a sense of, you know, what, what's the style and what's the mood? And, you know, I think here was pretty clear what was kind of like a moody sci-fi kind of dark ambient score.

And then I start thinking about, start thinking about what, how can I interpret some of the ideas in the movie into, into musical terms that would make sense, and I will talk about that with the director. Sometimes I'll think about it before I bring up ideas, but I, I do try to find some sort of a [00:26:00] connection. So there's a concept behind what the music is, and it's not just, you know, just like, I sometimes you watch a movie and it'll literally just have, you know, you see the Netflix description, it'll say ominous music, you know? Yeah. You see the subtitles. So it's, you, you can, you can do that and, and it'll, it'll work.

It'll get the job done, but I think it's nicer to look for a little bit more depth than have to find a connection between like what you hear and what is happening in the show. You know, right now I'm watching, this is unrelated, but I'm watching a show that I'm sure you guys all know, it's called The White Lotus on HBO.

Yeah. Yeah. And the White Lotus score is so fantastic because they incorporate human animals and jungle sounds, you know, literally like monkey sounds into the music and they make it feel like this jungle adventure, almost like the music that they use in, in Survivor, the reality show and what that does, it, it, it makes the show feel like it's.

These characters are almost like, you know, like baboons [00:27:00] and monkeys and you know, it, it almost makes fun of the characters. And the reason they do that is because of the ideas behind of what's in the show. Or, you know, like a lot of the guys will act like a monkey when it comes to sex or you know, like these rich people might be, you know, they might have a lot of money and they, they're in these fancy places, but this is all very primal.

So I tried to do the same thing on basically everything that I worked on. So on Gray Matter, this is a movie about like regular people that somehow got super power, supernatural powers, and how can I put that into music? So I started thinking with my buddy Chris Lane, who does a lot of sound design, score sound design, similar to what Jeff does, but in a more musical manner, I would say.

How do we make that into, , into musical terms? And we, we thought of this idea of like, okay, what can we, like, play instruments that will make them sound like superhumans play them or like, what's a superhuman [00:28:00] use of like a cello? And we came up with two techniques. One is this thing called Jetta where you play the bow and instead of like stroking the bow from left to right, you on, on a violin or on a cello, you take it and you bounce it and then the bouncing effect makes it hit like three or two times, instead of vroom.

And that bouncing effect, if you capture that and you slow it down, It almost has these qualities of like, you know, it's half human, half suspended and it has this like feel of like, almost like it's using gravity to create sound. It's hard to explain it, but that sound is all over the movie. And another thing we did is we took this thing called E-bow.

It's an electric bow and it's like a magnet that you can put on a banjo or, or any string instrument, and it causes the string to vibrate using magnets. So it's kind of like this, like the, we were looking at what will make things move in a way where like it's not human touch moving them. Cuz in the movie you, you know, spoiler alerts, [00:29:00] you gonna, you, the characters might reach their hands forward and do this, you know, this gesture of like, they're shooting power out of their hands and then something will move.

So what can I do with the music to reinforce that feeling and to, you know, further take the viewer into like basically movie magic all done in a very subconscious way. This is not something that meant to be like, oh, you know, that weird. And also I gotta be careful not to compete with what the sound design is.

So that's something that I, early on from the script, I was already kind of starting to think like, what can I do to represent those ideas in music.

Julie Harris Oliver: So let's talk about how, how you mesh these two things together. Cuz you're saying you don't wanna step on the sound design and you're designing sound before you've heard the score. Right? So how do you-

Haim Mazar: I was nice enough to send him an email before and I was like, Hey dude, here's-

Julie Harris Oliver: Like, what if you had totally different concepts for what that magic sounds like?

Haim Mazar: That can happen. That

Jeff Pitts: can happen can very much happen. But I think that we like the, the thing is, is like when I started working, it is like way before when you guys started [00:30:00] working, like the composers always start like late, like it's like crazy how late you guys are going.

Yeah. Um, so-

Haim Mazar: We got four, I had four weeks to do the whole score.

Jeff Pitts: Right.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. We're gonna double down on that cuz that's crazy.

Jeff Pitts: And I think I had eight weeks, so I mean, which is still pretty fast. You know, I had four more weeks, but I think at some point I sent you a two track and then you sent me the music.

Yeah. When I work, and this is good for everybody, the 10 music is pretty good indication of what they kind of want. You know, like you'll, you'll know from the temp music if there's a silent moment, right?

Julie Harris Oliver: And is, is the editor putting in the temp music?

Jeff Pitts: Editor's gonna put in the temp music. Okay. With the director. They do it together. But you know, even if like, thematically the music is changing when there's no music, there's probably not gonna be music again there. So in those moments, you really want to focus on, you know, your background sound effects and like things that are gonna become more important in those moments.

Um, and then when you [00:31:00] start working in like, big action scenes and stuff like that, I think that there's like certain rules that kind of people tend to follow with, like, using drums in a certain spot, or maybe not using drums if there's a bunch of guns. And like, you know, these kinds of things are, all rules are meant to be broken, but these things kind of exist.

So if you, I'm always working against the music if I can get it. If I can't get it, I'm always working against the temp music gives me an idea, a map of where things are gonna be. .

Haim Mazar: And I think also sound design focuses more on non-musical, and, and this is a big word pitched, non pitched sound. So the sounds that he'll put in are not necessarily gonna sound like a musical element or the sounded output.

I might put in like what we call this a drone. It's basically a low bed of me, of ambient rumble like, and that will have a certain pitch to it. And that's the sort of element where, where if he's gonna put a drone, it'll be more like a airy drone. [00:32:00] That doesn't have a specific pitch to it, so that's not gonna mess with whatever I'm doing.

And that's a big rule that at least I try to follow or that I expect the sound design team to follow to not put too many musical elements and drone like ambient in their, in their sound design. but there are situations where, because

Julie Harris Oliver: Sometimes you're gonna have pitch in your-

Haim Mazar: He will. Yeah. We had a big sequence where there was a, an alarm going off towards the end of the film. Yeah. And it's in a certain pitch. And I have a lot of action music kind of covering that whole sequence. So there was a big one where, where it was like, you know, I would love to get that from you and hear what the sound of the alarm is. And I did eventually and, and you know, I think I did some tweaks or sometimes you put, you know, against each other.

It's like, wow, I did not expect that to. It's in this crazy key, but it's like it where his alarm might be an F sharp and I'm in C. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: So you could choose either to adjust your alarm so that it is in the same key? Or to have it [00:33:00] not be?

Haim Mazar: I can adjust my music to whatever he's doing. So, or it might, it might be on the stage.

Jeff Pitts: It might be weird. So it might sound weird because it's out. Yeah. Yeah. That might be cool. Exactly.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like on purpose.

Haim Mazar: You know, it doesn't, it's kind of nice and you leave this room of like, you know, there's always an element. I, I try to show up to the dub at least once to just kind of like, Hey, what, what did all this ended up sounding like?

And oh, that's good. There's a lot of surprise there. You know, like, whoa, you know, they added all this rumble or like they added this, whatever, whatever the case may be. It, it, it's, it's, it's nice when, like if, cuz he, when, when, when people who have experience doing this, then he takes all of the those things into my, into consideration.

He already plans for some of that unexpected stuff. So you wanna leave a little bit of this like, um, you know, almost like element of surprise in, in it. Um, it's really exciting and you hear, and just like he, Jeff said it, it's fun when it's, it wasn't meant to be, but it's kinda like, oh, that's kind of weird how that's like not in the same key. And it's like, well that's a-

Julie Harris Oliver: But it works.

Jeff Pitts: It works. I think in that, in that [00:34:00] specific case, we were kind of like in key

Haim Mazar: In that case we were, yeah. Because there was no time and we didn't want to be in a situation where we, we get to the stage and Meko and Byron are watching, or whoever watching was like, doesn't sound good guys.

Jeff Pitts: You know, . Right. So,

yeah. But I, I think, you know, this all brings up an important point, which is that you can never become too attached to your work because ultimately you're trying to make it so that the, the, the picture is elevated. Yeah. And so you cannot get too protective of things. And I always say, you know, I should just call it killing babies , because like, you know, it could, it could be something that's really endearing to you, and that you worked a lot of time on, but if it's not working in the picture, then it's gotta go.

Yeah. And you have to, you have to accept that. You have to be able to, yeah. It can be painful, but that's okay cuz this, this is part of the process.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's gonna be better.

Jeff Pitts: It, the whole thing's gonna be better in the end.

Haim Mazar: And it's a collaborative effort.

Jeff Pitts: Absolutely. Yeah. Everybody's working together for the same goal. And so if [00:35:00] you, you know, if you've presented your work as you intended it to be, and parts of that need to go away, it doesn't mean that. All your work is gone. It just means that, that in that moment, that's gone. And that's gonna take, I mean it maybe it's maturity. Um, but if, if you can have that early on where you're not defensive about your work or if somebody's giving you notes about your work and you get, do not get defensive because they're not giving you note. There has to be a free flow of that.

Julie Harris Oliver: Not a bad person.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, it's-

Haim Mazar: Never personal. That's what I learned. You know, leave your ego and it's never personal. It's, it's really about, if somebody doesn't like what you did, it's not because he doesn't like you and your sensibility and how you put it together. He just doesn't like that one thing that sound or that piece of music works with what he's trying to make in a movie.

And he might not know how to explain, or she might not know it. I explain herself, but it's not personal to you. But it, it can feel personal. Yeah. If you stayed up all night and you poured your heart and soul into it and you really believe [00:36:00] that it's right. You might take it as a personal criticism, but it's, it's really, really not.

And if, and I guess that's maturity too, you know? Yeah. Like, and remembering that and be secure enough about yourself and your skills, that if somebody doesn't like it, it's fine. You know that that's all it is.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, you put, you know, 10 different artists on a project.

Jeff Pitts: Right? And then you have, you can have a row of producers that are all gonna like, come in at the last minute and they're gonna be like, nah, like, like everybody's worked on that in this, in the room. Everybody's been working on it for like three hours and they're coming with a note that like kind of unravels what everybody's already been like. Okay. Yeah. Well, we like. You know, and so you have to be able to, you have to be able to absorb those notes.

You might not change everything about that moment because one producer said something, but you have to be able to be like, okay, what did that person say? What do they mean by what they're saying? And then how do you, how do we address that note?

Julie Harris Oliver: Without spinning out?

Haim Mazar: Yeah. A lot of times it'll actually [00:37:00] make the end result better. But you, you totally have to like run it through this filter and interpret what does this note mean? Who gave the note? Why did he give the note? Whether you agree with it or not, you have to-

Julie Harris Oliver: You may have an emotional response.

Haim Mazar: Oh, you will have an emotional response. You'll be like, oh yeah, this, and he doesn't what he's talking about. Or Here we go again. Yeah. And at some point you do. who, you know, who gives what kind of notes and to take them literally or not, or, and you know, where they are also in the, in the, I guess in the hierarchy of, of the film and you Yeah, it's a combination of a lot of things. It's, but you definitely have to like analyze the note and it would be helpful for you to analyze the order to understand what, what people are saying, because most people are in that situation, if they're producing a film or directing a film or cutting a film, they probably are pretty good at what they do, or at least they've proved themselves and they have some experience and they probably beat somebody else to get to that position. So if they're giving you a [00:38:00] note, you know, even if they're not sound or not musician-

Julie Harris Oliver: They might know something.

Haim Mazar: They probably know something. So it's a little arrogant, I think, to dismiss it and to, you know.

Jeff Pitts: You, you should be open to it.

Haim Mazar: You should be open to it. And like I said, it, it, it could very well be that it'll result in a better, in a better product or like a, a better moment into film if you take that into consideration.

Jeff Pitts: It, a lot of this is about listening to people and, and understanding what they want. If you have a meeting with a director and the director's telling you that these things are important to them, then you should try to achieve those things and try, maybe try to achieve them. Break through what they even are saying.

Maybe you have ideas that are like, oh, you like that? What if we did this too? And they Oh yeah, that's great. Because it's, you're, you're taking their ideas and you're expanding on those, you're making them bigger than, than what they initially said. So-

Julie Harris Oliver: You're yes-anding it.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. But you would never be able to do that if you were just like, I'm not, listen, I'm gonna do what I want to do on this. I'm not listening to any guide [00:39:00] tracks. I'm not doing anything. I'm just going to. Cut.

Julie Harris Oliver: Can you imagine?

Jeff Pitts: Oh yeah, definitely. I can definitely imagine that.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're like, I lived it. Okay, let's talk about the schedule for a minute cuz you had eight weeks, you had four weeks. The pressure to create under those circumstances.

And also I've heard it was a very tight budget. Like, I don't know, were you hiring an orchestra? Like, let's talk a bit about what kind of constraints, what kind of choices and how you, how you had to do all that quickly.

Haim Mazar: So starting with the schedule, which affects the budget, usually film composer will get like four to eight or twelve weeks to do a, a full score.

For me personally, the, the short period of time makes me kind of freak out, but that also sparks a lot of creativity and I, I do well under pressure, so I use it to my advantage and I kind of, it just kind of gives the whole thing a, you know, an energy.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like you trust it's gonna come.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. Yeah. I have to, and then I just kind of go for a month and I'm [00:40:00] fully in, you know, invested in it. And it's like anything in that month or whatever amount of time I have, like anything goes. And I also have a very supportive family that, you know, understands that. And then lets me-

Julie Harris Oliver: We're not gonna talk to you for a month.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. So I, I just embrace it instead of being scared about it. I, I just embrace it. And then, um, the budget is affected because, like, like you said, a lot of times we'll hire an orchestra, but when this, that was kind of one of the first things that, you know, we, we knew that there's not a lot of budget in this, so I had to basically come up with a way of how to give the movie what it needed, like the kind of music that it needed, and use the budget and schedule constraints to not be an obstacle, but to, to be helpful. So I decided to not put any, um, any orchestra in the film because that will help me with going faster and also spend less money and take a little bit of the money that I have and invest it in putting, hiring, um, sound [00:41:00] designer, actually a score sound designer.

My, my buddy who mentioned before Chris Lane and another friend, to help me, you know, just get through the finish line, another copos named Daniel Stockdale. And that was kind of like my little army of, you know, music team going into this film. And that's how I tackled it. And I, and I tried to come up with a way that I can create, basically an electronic score that would have very few acoustic sounds.

But those acoustic sounds are only to create that, what I was talking about earlier before about the superhuman feeling. So because it's superhuman and it's not just natural, it made sense that it wouldn't be like just an acoustic score. Acoustic score happens to be more expensive than an electronic score, which worked in my favor.

So that's kind of what I, you know, how I spun it. It was like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll take that problem and use it in my favor. Um, and it, and, and it worked so that, that's how I dealt with that.

Julie Harris Oliver: What do you do first? Like, do you always have like a theme that then goes through, like, I'm [00:42:00] thinking of Schindler's List. You know, that really famous theme, it's an easy example. Do you come up with kind of something like that, or do you not always?

Haim Mazar: It's a great question. I do try to find either a theme or, I, I, it's part of the, what the movie needs. So some movies, they, they ask for a theme they want, they, they're asking for a very melodic score, that has melody in it and a melody that you can hum back and whistle. In some movies, they're not asking for any melodies. They're more gloomy and dark and they're a little bit more minimalistic and they don't guide you in the same way and just the overall aesthetics of them. Or not calling for big melodic ideas, but what they might have is thematic sounds or sonic themes. Um, and those might be like kind of certain gestures that the music might do, or certain chords or like I mentioned before, some of those like sound design, like playing the cello in a certain way and processing it. So yes, I look for themes and I look for basically [00:43:00] colors. That's where, that's where I start.

So I, I look and I, I read the script and I watch the movie and I, and I then go and I get a bunch of colors in this, in the form of, you know, music tracks. Those could be existing tracks that I had. Or I might sit by, sit by the, my computer and synthesize a quick example using certain sounds or a harmony or whatever it may be.

And then one track might feel like the color green and one track might feel like, you know, like dijon mustard and , and I'll bring those colors back to Meko and the filmmakers. In the form of an email to listen to a bunch of music that is not to picture. So it would just be, here's a bunch of tracks.

Like look, a lot of tracks, like I'll send like 50 tracks and it's all from whatever, you know, whatever I found stuff that I had and I felt like writing something quickly, or I might even include a couple of tracks that are not mine in that process just to kind of like get in whatever I need to. I usually don't, I usually try to stick to my own stuff and then I present [00:44:00] that to them in a very kind of loose way as I, you know, what do you think about these?

And they'll usually get back to you with, I like that purple. And I like that turquoise. And then I try to think where we, where, where do you see purple and turquoise in your film? You know? And those are all things that kind of give you clues to what their sensibility and also if you were right and you know, hopefully you are right throughout this whole process.

So you keep narrowing it down until you eventually can get to a point where you write the whole, you write an example and then you think, what do you think of this music against this scene now? And hopefully they like it at that point. And if they do that, it's good to start with things that could be a theme.

So in Gray Matter, there's a relationship between, um, there's a mother, mother daughter relationship. So one of the first scenes that I tackled was that one of the big sequences when they're going through this big emotional moment, and it's like a three or four minute scene. So I compose that whole sequence and I showed that to Meko, and after she liked it, [00:45:00] I already knew. Okay, I can repurpose that theme in other spots.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then that can become a framework for it.

Haim Mazar: Exactly. Exactly. And you also explained that to the filmmakers, you know, while they watch it and or you might show it as a surprise, like, well, since you like it here, here, I took that same music and I put the, this other scene where, and it doesn't always work, but, um, that, that's kind of like at school we call it score design.

You know, like you, you are trying to put those big elements in place. Otherwise if you don't do that, you're just gonna end up with, you know, this kinda like paste, just like ra you know, just, just fillers, you know, just ominous music or whatever type of music it is, but it's not related to each other. So it's not, the music is, you want the music to tell a story.

Yeah. You want it to have, you know, to evolve and kinda take you through what's happening in the film and have a conclusion at the end and a feeling of like building and an arc to it, just like the characters do. You don't want to just. Right. I mean, you could. Yeah. And [00:46:00] because we serve as background music, it, it's tempting sometimes to just take the easy way out and just put, well, you know, whoever, it just, it's just gonna be background score at the end of the day.

Some guy watching the movie on his iPad in Montana's not going to tell, um-

Julie Harris Oliver: No offense, Montana.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. No offense, Montana, wherever, you know, like, this is San Francisco. Um, but, you know, I don't think about it like that. I think about it as like, you know, what, what's the best contribution I can give this film and what's like another layer that I can create? Um, You know, elevate this film and give, give or show and give it another, a little bit more depth and weight.

Julie Harris Oliver: It's also interesting to hear you put words to something that's impossible to describe.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. It's hard to talk about music.

Julie Harris Oliver: You did a very good job with that.

Haim Mazar: Thank you.

Jeff Pitts: The colors are good. Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you, Jeff? I think the original question was about yeah, schedule and timing and budget and how do you approach it? What do you do?

Jeff Pitts: For my work, well, [00:47:00] first thing I do is I send everything to the dialogue editor and the Foley team and let them get the work. And then we get like the whole, the whole nuts and the bolts of everything is you have all the dialogue that you get off the set.

You have to break all that out and take a look at it and make sure that you're in good shape. And then what isn't good needs to have some ADR done to it, either to add syllables into or, um, maybe even just taking another take of that same, line and just putting that word in there. There's a, there's a million ways to handle that, but you know, somebody's gotta go through and do all that stuff.

And that's our dialogue team that does that. And then also you have to send it off to Foley. And Foley does all of the, like every time they touch each other's hands or they footsteps, every footstep that they do, they're doing like a cloth track. So it's like they'll do that. Like the, the whole movie is like-

Julie Harris Oliver: You have to remember not to cut that out.

Jeff Pitts: Cause normally don't cut that out. Yeah, [00:48:00] no, that's, that's in there. We need that for the purpose. We need that for the m and e. Um, so you have all that stuff done. You got cop belts, you have, you know, it's just everything.

The detail is all putting the glass down on a glass table. It's like, you know, there's a lot of that kind of stuff. So you get all that out to those guys and then, you know, when it comes time to actually like cutting the movie. I know that I have these like big scenes to do, but what I'll do is I'll cut. I usually just go linear, so I'll just start at the top of the film and I'll just start to work my way through the film.

Now this was a little bit weird because this film, spoilers, has things that happened at the beginning of the film that also come back in the middle and at the end and all this stuff. So like when I cut the beginning of the movie, I was just kinda like, you know what I'm, I'm a like, there's some big moments that include this stuff, so I'm just gonna like put in a little bit of stuff here and then not really, not really play it so hard, but some of the stuff I wanted to do, was, I wanted to create tells in these scenes that we flashback to. So, you know, like the cops they call, um, additional cop backup. So I have [00:49:00] sirens starting in the distance and kind of coming in and I thought that was a good thing where like that, that kind of thing repeated each time the flashback happened.

Haim Mazar: So this is an element that is not in the dialogue, but you're adding a little bit of like backup. Yeah.

Jeff Pitts: No, they, they call for backup in the movie,

Haim Mazar: but you see their lips moving.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, I think, yeah. Yeah. He calls for backup.

Julie Harris Oliver: But you hear the sirens like a mile away.

Jeff Pitts: But then I start the siren, so he calls back up. And then, you know, wait a beat and then start sirens off the distance and have the sirens coming in. And then it's like, okay, so now we've played these sirens coming in like this and then like, here's another part of the movie and it's the same sequence and then the sirens are coming in again. And the, the sirens are cool too, cuz they kinda like built to the end of the scene and it's a kind of a good thing cuz you can kind of have that happening and then there's a helicopter starting to come around.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, is that in the script?

Jeff Pitts: No.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay.

Jeff Pitts: Just add it and just do it.

Haim Mazar: Yeah. So you added a helicopter off, off camera, which causes the whole situation to feel a lot more [00:50:00] dangerous.

Jeff Pitts: Right. Because there's like, um, more pressure for them to get out of that situation that they're in.

Julie Harris Oliver: Just ramp it up.

Haim Mazar: Without even realizing you're like, oh, you know, this is some GTA, five star.

Jeff Pitts: Five star criminal. Um, so, you know, In those situations. Like, so I built that part first cuz it worked to build that to the, to the end of that scene because that was a big thing for the scene. But things like the gunshots in the scene didn't really matter in that moment.

Cause you didn't really, they weren't presented in that first flash in that first moment. But as the flashbacks come back, now the gunshots matter a lot. And then you've already built what that siren is supposed to be. So it's almost like you don't wanna actually change that siren. You want that siren to be the same because of the way the, the movie works.

If you did that like in a regular movie where you're like, oh, okay. The cops are coming. I'm gonna grab all these sirens I did and slap it here. Oh look, the cops are coming again. I'm gonna grab all my siren and like you get yelled at, because you made the exact, you put the exact same sounds in and then it sounds like [00:51:00] you're just triggering sound effects.

Anytime your movie sound, anytime you sound like you're just taking a sound effect and placing it. Yeah. That's not gonna be, yeah, it's not gonna be right. Even if you are just placing sound. You had to make those things feel like they are in the world, you know? Yeah. This cannot be like a random thing that happens right there.

So, you know, I, I will start to just work linearly through the film and then I'll get to them. You know, the first moment I think was like, um, she's teaching her daughter about using telekinesis to hold the box up, so that has a sound to it. And then there's, and then she uses the telekinesis on the daughter to knock her down cause she was back talking her or something like that.

So there's a little bit of like, you know, parental, abuse going on in this film. So trigger warning on that. But you know, like, so in that moment, okay, now I have to start thinking about a process that I'm going to be able to develop so I don't have a sound effect. So I'm not making a sound that's like, oh, lemme go find a sound effect in the library and I'll put it here for the, for the telekinesis sound.

Because then what [00:52:00] happens is you have that sound and now you have to, you have to copy that and go put, oh, she's using her effect again. Let me go copy that exact sound over here. And copy it again over here and it's gonna not sound good. What you wanna do is you wanna create something that feels organic so that you, you have control over what it's, what it's doing in the movie.

Julie Harris Oliver: Is this where you would create a process to do it?

Jeff Pitts: That's where I would, that's, part of my work flow.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then you do the process later, but a little different?

Jeff Pitts: That's right. So I would automate parameters of that process so that they're happening. And it's gonna happen this way this time, and then it's, and next time it's gonna happen a different way and things like that.

So that you're creating an organic process that is gonna feel natural. Right. Hope so.

Julie Harris Oliver: But it's recognizable as that's the telekinesis.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, exactly. There's not gonna be a question that, it's not the telekinesis thing, but each time it happens, it doesn't, it feels different. Yeah. Slightly. It's always gonna be different, you know, so that's the, that's the thing you have to work on.

That's the thing you have to do. Like, if you're cutting like a car chase, you know, you're gonna have all these engines and, and tire squeals and all this [00:53:00] kind of stuff. But like, if you always look, let's say that there's like, every time you go to the hero's car and you have him in and it's like, and it's like cut inside the car and you're inside the car for 20 frames, and then every time you go back to him, if you have the exact same accelerator sound, I mean, you fail. You're, you're like, that's no. Like things have to just, no. Things have to feel like they're like, they're real. Yeah. You know.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, you know what, were, were either of you on mic and on camera for the reality show?

Haim Mazar: I was for a little bit in the beginning. Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: How, how was that? How was it working like that?

Haim Mazar: That was fun. Oh, you liked it? Yeah, I did. I hope it makes it into the show. I, so I did my interview with Meko and the, and, and the, the producers on Zoom. A recorded zoom wasn't my first interview on Zoom, but the fact that it was recorded was kind of end. To think that it can be aired on television kind of makes it a little different.

And then the, I went to visit the cutting room at some [00:54:00] point and presented some music. Actually, that was the first time I played them any music, I think was in the cutting. room And, uh, that was filmed. So they, they mic'd me up and I went into, um, I met Meko and, and Byron, and gave a fake TV hug. No, I gave her a real hug and then they're like, whoa, we didn't mic you up.

Can you do it again? And then I gave her a fake hug. And then, and then, yeah, and then the rest of it was actually filmed in real time and that was fine. There. Three, there was a cameraman in the room. And-

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you feel like you had to watch what you said or were you just doing your thing?

Haim Mazar: After two, three minutes, no, I mean, I always, you are, at least for me, taking a meeting is a, can be an exhausting thing, you know? Cuz you kind of like, you naturally watch what you're saying and you're very focused. So, but no, I, it didn't, it didn't make it, you know, you forget about the cameras very quickly. It's what I felt like.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So it's fine. Jeff, are you on camera at all?

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, I did. Um, a spot, well I think I had some, some Zoom [00:55:00] meetings that I just now remembered were recorded, so I have no idea what happened in those. So I had those that happened and then I went in for spotting, , with Meko and Byron, and that was all recorded.

But I think the film crew was like a little freaked out because those things, like a spotting of a whole movie. Eight and a half hours. So it's like they're there at the beginning, like two of 'em, plus the spot camera sitting there. And it's like, as the day went on, it was like less and less.

Haim Mazar: Like what we do is like very tedious and, you know, it just not, it's like, yeah. Just some man or a woman sitting in a dark room in front of a monitor and, you know. Yeah. Moving the mouse around just let frames go by.

Jeff Pitts: It's, I was like, oh, can you hit pause and go back and play that again? Oh, okay. Thanks. Yeah, I think we should, , maybe look at recording that line. That's, yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So we won't look for you be highlighted on some episodes.

Jeff Pitts: I don't know. Well see. I have maybe, I hope, I hope we'll make, they did an exit, an interview with [00:56:00] me, which is a bit weird because it's like after eight and a half hours of like, I'm like, exhausted. Yeah. And then they're like, do this exit interview. And I'm like, ah, really?

Julie Harris Oliver: Was there anything that either one of you presented to Meko where she was like, no, that's terrible. Start over. Was there anything like that?

Haim Mazar: There was one for me, but, and I was happy because she was so nice about everything that at some point I was like, do you actually like this? Or you're just being nice?

Julie Harris Oliver: Is any of your feedback real?

Haim Mazar: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, no, there was one particular scene that she, that we were having, I had to do four options for that, I think four or five options. And we eventually nailed it. But, um, yeah, there was, there was one and she just very honest about it and, you know, as, as she should.

And, whenever that happens, I always try to have a conversation with the filmmakers that is not necessarily musical, but more like, [00:57:00] all right, I think I missed something. Because whenever I write and I put music to something, there's a story and dramatic reason behind everything that I do. So the, if I put music there, there's a reason it's gonna play from somebody's perspective.

It's gonna push a certain narrative like, oh, she's, she's feeling lonely, or she's sad, or she's thinking of this person she's in love with. So I'm gonna use the music that I, that represents that person here, or this is dangerous.

Jeff Pitts: I think that's an important thing to say, that you should have a reason for why all the stuff that you created is there.

Haim Mazar: Same with sound, you don't just put music or sound or, or an ambient drone just to be moody. You're moody for a reason.

Julie Harris Oliver: So if you've missed it or if it, if it missed-

Haim Mazar: I, I might have like-

Julie Harris Oliver: And you're like, I missed the point of this.

Haim Mazar: I'm trying, so I'm trying to understand. I, maybe I missed the point. Maybe it's a matter of just the way I played it, wasn't, wasn't it. Sometimes it's simple, as simple as like, they don't like that instrument or [00:58:00] they, you know, or I went too far with something.

Um, or sometimes what I meant to do didn't, it didn't feel like that, you know, it didn't feel scary. It felt, you know, it felt boring, whatever it is. So I try to kind of, again, analyzing the note and understand why, why did they say what they said? Did I miss something? Uh, and come to it from that place. And a lot of times what that makes the filmmakers do it, it makes them kind of think of adjectives and things that are not musical.

Because if they do try to explain themselves musically, that might be tricky. Cuz they're not professionally trained in music.

Julie Harris Oliver: They're not talking the same language.

Haim Mazar: They might say, you know, they might think, they say something musical, like it needs to have more bass. But what they really want is to have more grit to it, for example. And if I'm gonna take that note, literally, it'll just sound like it has more bass to it. Or it'll say it needs a crescendo, but it doesn't need to be louder. , you know, by volume. It just needs to feel like it's the music. Something about the music is rising or building, but it's not a, [00:59:00] it's not a dynamic thing, you know?

So I find that getting them to talk about it in, just like they would with an actor or with a cinematographer, you know, like, oh, this, you know, she feels cold and lonely or like, you know, something like that. I know how to make that work with music. So that, that's kind of how I get out of that. And sometimes it's the director don't know what they want. They're, they, they are figuring out themselves and they're realizing that-

Julie Harris Oliver: They'll know when they see it.

Haim Mazar: Some, sometimes also like the scene is just not doing it. And you're, you now have to create a feeling of loneliness when somebody is really happy, for example, you know, and, and that might make your music not sound what usual lonely music sounds like, cuz you're overcompensating something.

And maybe you have to do that just for the director to realize that, you know what, it's just not well acted. So I'm gonna choose what's best here to kind of like, accept the fact that it's not well acted or put this ridiculous overcorrection over it. And it's this, you know, you, what you [01:00:00] wanna do is keep the communication going and, and understand with them what, you know, keep keep it going and, and, and have, and come together to this realization like, okay, we're trying, we're exploring and this feels like the best way to get out of this problem.

It's, it's kind of like troubleshooting almost. When you hit those moments, what's worse is that you, what, what, what, what you don't wanna do is take it personally and make it into a fight and try to, no, but this is good. You know, this will, this fits great. You know? Yeah. You don't wanna, this is the power where you put your ego aside and you're like, this is not about you, it's about the music.

Separate the fact that you make this music. You're never gonna be able to sell your music to the director, jam it down to their throat. Like, you need to, like this, this is good. That's not gonna work. Um, so yeah. So that, that, that's what I do is I, I just kind of take a step back. And And it worked. It worked with Meko as well and she was great.

Other than that one spot I think was pretty, we were on the same page, so it made it [01:01:00] easier. Yeah.

Jeff Pitts: I don't think I had any.

Julie Harris Oliver: Just nailed it every time.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I tend to be how I worked. That's how I do it. Alright. Meko is now texting me cuz I was like, what? What did I write here? I wrote, what one thing did you hate about my work? That we had to change?

Julie Harris Oliver: Did you tell her you're on the podcast right now?

Jeff Pitts: I said at the podcast and then I get back. Hmm hmm. Emojis. There's so many. Yeah this, this huge list comes about. Yeah. That'd be awesome. After I was just like, she still, no, I edit off the park every moment. I was pretty happy with your work overall.

You as a person. However, overall. Overall my work was good. Pretty happy. All right.

Julie Harris Oliver: So it was fine.

Jeff Pitts: So, you know, on a scale of one to 10, I got a seven. All right. You know, sorry. Okay.

Julie Harris Oliver: Favorite memory from the show?

Jeff Pitts: I work the most with people on the stage, so just all the stage time is like just super fun. Like em, embrace those moments when you're on the stage with everybody, cuz [01:02:00] it's like when everything comes together and that's when all the big decisions are made and everybody's like either happy or not. That that's the moment, that's when it's all gonna happen, because aside from that, you're just sitting in a room alone working.

Julie Harris Oliver: Making memories.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. Yeah.

Haim Mazar: My favorite memory is probably, I mean, usually my favorite memory of every project is the end. When it's all approved, that's been done, or when we're recording the orchestra. But because we didn't have an orchestra session, the other favorite movement moment that I remember was, so in one of, I think it was the first meeting that I took prior to that meeting or after, I don't remember, but I sent a bunch of music after reading the script and responding to it. I sent music, I call it like temp ideas. And I sent a folder with, here's some music. You know, I might be wrong and it might be off and I mentioned the fact in, in the meeting I mentioned the fact that I sent this music out and , I was kind of defending it because you don't want to like send music and be like, I send this music, you know, and then they don't like it.

And you're like, well, yeah, you send this music that we don't like. So I [01:03:00] always send it with a caveat and I explain it. This is just reading this script. I didn't see any, which is true. I don't know if it looks like what I'm reading, so it's probably mostly wrong. But hey, in case there were a couple of good tracks in there, let me know.

And then I kind of gave my spiel and, and Byron goes like, oh, actually everything you sent was perfect. We already have it into film , it's cut into film. We love it. it's working really well. I was like, Everything I said is exactly my vision. This is exactly what I had in mind. And of course it works,

Jeff Pitts: but that helps me cuz that means it's in the guide.

Yeah. You know, it's the guide music.

Haim Mazar: Is, it became, some of that music became the temp and it was a, it wasn't that, so, yeah. So that was a good moment. Cause it, it makes you realize that like A, you what you are thinking, what you're seeing is what, what your client is in your partner seeing. You're vibing with the vision.

And, and the other thing is that it just kind of get, gets everybody on a good start. And it also meant like, yeah, probably I'm probably gonna win this project. You know, I'm probably gonna get this project. So that was a good memory. [01:04:00]

Julie Harris Oliver: Wait, was that before you were even hired?

Haim Mazar: Yeah, that was before, yeah. Oh, they, they did this. How did your audition? Audition of sorts or? I'm not sure how they went about it, but I know they met with a few composers and, I don't know if they all set music. I did but yeah. So there we go. That was a nice moment.

Jeff Pitts: Send the music.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. There's a tip. It's a risky move.

Haim Mazar: It's a risky move, but-

Julie Harris Oliver: When it works, it works. Yeah.

Jeff Pitts: Send the music.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, now we are to our, um, typically martini shot, but obviously we're having a red wine shot. Um, oh, okay. We are. So last question of the podcast. What advice would you give to someone who is trying to do what you do?

Jeff Pitts: Say yes to everything and do the best with every opportunity given. That's, I mean, it's really that simple.

Haim Mazar: That's good. That is great advice. I don't know if I can top that. I would say so for, for like, for a film composer, I would say stay real, like stay realistic with your, with your goals and what you, what you, what you think you can achieve. What I mean by that is, um, don't try to do something that [01:05:00] is like, you can be a dreamer, but you need to do, you need to be a dreamer and allow the dreams to come true.

But if you, if you start dreaming in the wrong place or at the wrong time, your chances of those dreams come, come true or are are way smaller. So if you wanna start in the business, you probably need to either work as an assistant, kind of pay your dues and learn how to get there from someone or be realistic enough to know about yourself that you are not the type that can work under someone like that.

And you probably need to find a different way to learn and to, so that probably means that you need to create relationships with filmmakers and, people like Meko and work with them and build a relationship with. Young filmmakers so that when they get a big break, they can take you with them. Either that or develop that relationship with, , with a mentor and somebody that can show you how, how to do it and, um, [01:06:00] start developing those relationships.

Cause, because when you're doing solo film scoring work, then it's, it's really all about relationships and which directors do you know, and producers that can recommend you to future projects if you don't have the relationships. You can be the, you can be the next John Williams, but you're not gonna get any work.

Jeff Pitts: And there's probably that guy out there that would've been the next job. You know, and they didn't get it because, I mean, there's just so much.

Julie Harris Oliver: John Williams had every job.

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. There's so much sweat equity in this and there's so much like you have to just work hard and you have to be talented and you have to say yes to projects and you, I mean, there's just so many-

Julie Harris Oliver: And you have to be nice.

Jeff Pitts: There's so much stuff. Yeah. You have to be a reasonable human being. Like that's, that goes back to like, don't defend your, your work. You know, beyond-

Haim Mazar: Saying yes to everything really helps though. Cause it's kind of like you, it's a no-brainer. It's like, well, I need to say yes. So I say yes, you know?

Jeff Pitts: Yeah. I mean, you'll come a, there'll come a time in your career where you can say no and you know why you're saying no. Yeah, exactly. But if you're just starting out, that is [01:07:00] not the time. Like you should be taking, saying, I don't care if it's like you're editing dialogue on cops. I don't care. It's like, you better just take, that's a tough job.

Sorry, Montana.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. That's amazing. Thank you both. This was so interesting. Jeff Pitts. Haim Mazar. Thank you for being on Catch a Break.

Jeff Pitts: Cheers. Thank you so much.

Haim Mazar: Thank you.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch A Break Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Jeff Pitts and Haim Mazar and all the guests for this season.

And special thanks to crewvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Please check out our website at catch a break podcast.com and follow us on all the social media. Catch A Break is produced in partnership with Catch Light Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Jocelyn, thanks for listening.

I hope you enjoyed [01:08:00] this deep dive behind the scenes of Project Greenlight. Next season will be here before you know it. And in the meantime, I hope this helped you to catch a break.