EP 410: The Post Production Process

Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] This is the Catch or Break podcast, the insiders guide to breaking into and navigating the entertainment industry. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. You can find us at catchabreakpodcast.com and all the social media places at Catch A Break Pod, as well as all the podcast places. The presenting sponsor of season four of Catch A Break is Santa Clarita Studios, a full service independent studio featuring 35 sound stages.

An amazing new back lot featuring a New York and LA downtown street with interiors and an alley fully furnished production office space and suite style executive offices along with post-production. Dedicated to providing an attentive and personally tailored experience for all of their clients. Santa Clarita Studios offers rentals and services to meet any need, any budget.

Find them at santaclaritastudios.com. We are getting close to the end of our Project [00:01:00] Greenlight series, where we talk to the cast and crew of Gray Matter and get the real behind the scenes of the behind the scenes. We're dropping new episodes every day. So if you wanna start at the beginning, go back and start with episode 401.

For this penultimate episode, I sat down with Erica Djafroodi, the post supervisor, and Byron Wong, the editor. We talked about how this was different from other jobs and how it was working with the director who is also an editor. Okay, have a listen.

Welcome to Catch A Break. I'm here today with Erica Djafroodi and Byron Wong.

Erica is an Iranian Filipino American post producer with over 10 years of experience in scripted television and new media. Some of her credits include Brooklyn 99, Woke, Unprisoned and Grand Crew. And most recently Erica was the post producer on Project Greenlight's Gray Matter. Erica's also a working photographer, voiceover artist, and avid painter.

Welcome, Erica.

Erica Djafroodi: Thank you for having me.

Julie Harris Oliver: See, no one is gonna be surprised that you're a voiceover artist. You can hear it loud and clear. [00:02:00]

Erica Djafroodi: That's right.

Julie Harris Oliver: Byron Wong is an editor based in Los Angeles. He began his career in post-production over 20 years ago in New York as an apprentice and assistant editor working with directors Brian De Palma on Snake Eyes and Mission to Mars with Ben Stiller on Zoolander and Tropic Thunder.

From there, he worked his way to the editor's chair cutting studio features such as The Wedding Ringer with Kevin Hart and indie features such as Thumper. His experience crosses over genres from comedy such as Netflix's Sixtuplet starring Marlon Wayans, Ideal Home with Paul Rudd and Steve Coogan, Hallmark's Under the Bed, and documentaries like Netflix's Larry Charles's Dangerous World of Comedy, and HBO's just released, Shaq.

He most recently completed the Foo Fighters' Studio 666 and HBO Max's Project Greenlight movie Gray Matter. Byron is represented by United Talent Agency. Welcome, Byron.

Byron Wong: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Julie Harris Oliver: So the first thing we do on the show is we ask you what was your first job and how did you get it?

Erica Djafroodi: Let's start with Erica.

My first [00:03:00] job was a post PA on Disney Channel's Dog with a Blog. And I, you know, my senior year of college I was studying filmmaking and I wanted to do documentary filmmaking and edit those. So I applied in my last semester to so many different jobs in San Francisco and LA and the only interview I got was for a post PA job, which I don't know.

I, I like, I have a cousin that worked on Suits and she somehow got my name in somewhere, , in Veronica Mars and stuff, but I didn't even know what she did. Um, but anyway, she got me the interview and yeah, I have been in post-production ever since then. I think that was 2022. Uh, 2012.

Julie Harris Oliver: I was gonna say this is 2022.

You had a very meteoric rise.

Erica Djafroodi: Right. Well, I was 22 in 2012. . .

Julie Harris Oliver: Perfect. Oh my gosh. Okay. Anyway, perfect. Byron, how about [00:04:00] you? What was your first job and how did you get it?

Byron Wong: I'll go with my first union job just because, , you know, I had been doing a lot of, I was working New York and I was doing a lot of PA, I was doing a lot of set PA work, you know, anything that I could just get into like getting into the industry.

And, , my first union job, I had been working as a post PA on various productions and, , my dad was an architect and he, , he worked, you know, one of his work colleagues knew a documentary editor. And so they were like, oh, maybe, you know, my friend could help Byron. And , so they got us all together and that documentary editor was, , a woman named Jean Chen, who is an extraordinary documentary filmmaker and editor. But, , she was like, she was great. She was really helpful as a mentor and, and then those early stages, and she was like, well, I know this guy, , he who works in, , the Bill Building, which is in New York post-production. That was where it was all at, you know, anyone wanted to work in, , you know, sound knew of the Bill Building.

That's where everything was [00:05:00] happening, , in terms of major post-production work in New York. And so, like, I actually been working there at the time as a post PA on, , a movie called The Boxer with Daniel Day-Lewis. Anyway, , he knew this guy, he was a sound editor named Aton Mursky. And he, he is another great guy.

And, , he was working with a sound supervisor, Maurice Shell, and they were gearing up to work on Snake Eyes. And, , they didn't have a post supervisor. , they kind of dealt directly with the studios. And so Maurice needed someone that could help with purchase orders and that kind of stuff. And that's pretty much a lot of what I was doing when I was being a post PA over on, on The Boxer. So he was like, you know, hey Byron, you know, like, yeah, like we, we had kind of met just because we were like, oh, you know, Jean said I should, you know, meet with you and you know, like. SO we kind of introduced each other that way ourselves, like, and he just knew that I was working on the, , working in the office and, , I could do purchase orders.

And he was like, well, would you like to come on board and, , we'll get you into the union as a sound [00:06:00] apprentice. And I was like, absolutely, done. And, , you know, I left The Boxer and, and joined, , Snake Eyes as a sound apprentice. And so that was my first job. They brought me into the union, which was, you know, not a, not an easy thing to do at, , in New York at that time.

And it's still kind of, it's, it's very, you know,

Julie Harris Oliver: It's never easy.

Byron Wong: Convenient. Yeah. That was my first job and I worked with them for a number of years on a number of jobs after that.

Julie Harris Oliver: So it's so interesting to me that you both started as post PAs, right? And then like that's the entry and then you can go a million different directions from there.

Erica, you went into producing and Byron, you went into editing that. That's so interesting. How did you, how'd you kind of know like that part of it was your jam or did you fall into it and realize, oh, this is a thing I'm good at, I'm gonna keep pursuing this. Erica, did you have thoughts about that?

Erica Djafroodi: You know, yeah.

I would say that getting in as a PA first on anything even, you know, it doesn't matter what department, but getting in as a PA is the first step to any [00:07:00] position. If you want to be an editor or post produce, obviously you know, a post PA gig is ideal. From there, you know, I've had PAs that wanna edit and they still start in the post PA position and kind of learn how to AE from there since it's more technical than actually being an editor.

Julie Harris Oliver: AE. Assistant Editor?

Erica Djafroodi: Assistant editor. Yes. Sorry.

Julie Harris Oliver: Thank you.

Erica Djafroodi: And then they get their hours to join the union if they're in union and become editors. And I originally wanted to do that, but when I got my first job on Dog with a Blog that was my, my first time seeing what TV was like.

And it's scripted television, what I'm used to. And the editor's just following a script and you know, you see the director come in, do their cut, you see the producers come in, do their cut, then the studio, the network. And by the end of it, I felt like, oh my gosh. And not to diminish anything because you get to be creative at first, but.

The end product, you know, is, is not yours. And so [00:08:00] I was like, that's not, that's not as creative as I wanna be. I'm going to stay on this side until I figure out if that is really what I wanna do. And like many people, I think, you know, you start moving up, you start getting more confidence because you learn the process so well.

And you know, I liked the producing side of it too. So Yeah. I just kinda, I just kind of stayed there. I wouldn't say that I knew it was my jam for a while. I don't, I still don't know if it's my jam, you know, .

Julie Harris Oliver: But you're good at it, is the thing.

Erica Djafroodi: Yes. And I, I don't take it for granted.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now. It's interesting to me that, that you started out in television. Byron, you're in film and now this was a film inside of a television show. So for you, Erica, we'll stay on you for a second, how is this different for you post supervising the film as opposed to a television show?

Erica Djafroodi: Oh, it was so different and this was the first time I was ever on a feature and so that's what kind of intrigued me about it.

Cause I know that the process is a little bit [00:09:00] different, but I thought, you know, we all deliver the same nowadays because most things are streaming, so I'm gonna be able to figure it out. But I would say this experience, you know, we still delivered it like it was a streaming television show and HBO Max, they, they kind of paired us with their unscripted TV department.

And so they were all used to operating kind of like a television show. So it was this weird hybrid where I felt, oh, I'm really familiar with this process, but there are still different rules in theatrical, which was a learning curve, but it was almost like delivering one long streaming episode of television, like three episodes put together or something.

Julie Harris Oliver: Like the longest episode in the world.

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah. Yeah. For this at least.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, Byron, how is it for you with, like, figuring out your relationship with Meko and how you were going to work together and also knowing that she's also an editor? Like how, how [00:10:00] was that for you?

Byron Wong: That was, , it was, it was interesting. You know, at first, , I was a little bit nervous about it.

Like, you know, she's an editor and we all, each of us have our own, you know, as an editor, a lot of times you spend a lot of time alone in your room, in front of your computer, and you have your own way of working that you're comfortable with. And, , you know, part of me is like, okay, you know, there the, you know, is she gonna be okay with the way I work?

You know, is she gonna be okay with the pace that I work at? Or is she gonna be, , , , is she gonna be, you know, wanting to just, you know, shove me over the side and say, just move and then like, you know, take over on the Avid and, , I've worked with, , producers and, and other people who, who are editors and like, sometimes that's how they'll, they'll act.

They'll just be like, no, just move it one frame over. You know, give, you know, move, move this thing mo one module over, and then, you know, or it's fine. I'll, I'll, I'll deal with that, you know, as it comes. But, , you know, Meko wasn't really like that. She, I mean, she does sometimes like have certain things that she wanted to do [00:11:00] and try.

But she was very respectful about my own processes and very, you know, my, my own way of doing things. And, , she would made me feel super comfortable and we really collaborated. And, , what I really also liked about her being, you know, former editors was that we spoke the same language. There wasn't this, , disconnect in terms in that regard.

She understood where I was coming from and she under understood, like, let's say, do you have any better reactions from this? Or, you know, let's look at them and then she'll understand, okay, here's this reaction, which is cool, but can't really use it because what's going on, like in the background is, doesn't, wouldn't match, or yeah, just wouldn't work for some other kind of reason.

So, you know, we, we, we were very in sync in that regard. And so it ended up being, I thought it worked great. I, I loved working with

Julie Harris Oliver: her.

And I, I'm curious because she's an editor, I imagine that also makes her very efficient director confirm this or not. Did it make it so that like she knew when she had all the coverage to make her more efficient that way and present you with all the things that you needed to pull it together?

Byron Wong: Well, here is where the, you know, the whole TV [00:12:00] show came, you know, into play because, you know, she is, at that point, she hadn't done anything longer than a short. So we were doing this whole feature we're, you know, it's an 18 day shoot and you got all these cameras in your face, like, just not even like behind, you're not behind the camera.

You're behind it and in front of it. Yeah. And, , you know, it's a, and, and, and you've got, , yeah, like producers and other people kind of like in her ear a lot, trying to like, make sure that she's getting the coverage that they're looking for or trying, you know, explore different options and directions.

And so she's getting, you know, it is a lot. So I think-

Julie Harris Oliver: Like so much interference.

Byron Wong: So much interference, so much, so many, like, you know, making thousands of decisions a day, you know, which is, it's something, you know, that, that, that takes practice in get getting used to. So she's thrust into this whole situation and I think she did amazingly well that said like, you know, yeah.

And she'll be the first to tell you this is that yeah, there wasn't, there, there are many instances where she didn't get enough coverage, , or the coverage that she wanted to get, but [00:13:00] just still had to move on. So I think, , you know, that was definitely some of the challenges that I think that we were getting.

That also I, I'm sure she would've loved like three more days of shooting, you know, like, , the, the time that she needed to, to really, you know, work on some of these, you know, situations with the actors would've been, you know, really helpful. Also the time and and budget to help really, you know, on the, on the post side of things like work with, , visual effects and some of the, those other issues.

It, it, there was a lot that, , we were hampered by. , but I think we still delivered a, a great film and I think she did an amazing job, you know, in, in light of all the situation. I know it's not gonna be, you know, when when you see it on the screen, you gotta judge what's on the screen. , but, , I still think you know it.

I think she did a great.

Julie Harris Oliver: That's great. You brought up two things I kind of wanna drill into. One of them was, yeah, you were on a TV show while you're doing this. So I, I know during production cameras followed people around, but did [00:14:00] they like mount cameras in your, were you on camera 24/7 while you were working?

Byron Wong: Well, while we were working, we had a minim of three cameras on. You know, we had our room, like my, my desk was on one side and, uh, Meko's was on the couch on the other side, I had a, , a camera kind of like, , right behind my computer, monitors pointed pretty much right at me. I had, , then there was a camera, let's see, pointed, you know, wide shot right at Meko.

And then, , let's see, , we had a wide camera, like next to the couch showing a wide shot. The back of my head and you know, basically me and my whole system. And then on Tuesdays and Thursdays, usually we had a cameraman in the room just panning back and forth between Meko and myself, , just trying to capturing everything.

And we had a, , a microphone in the ceiling, well recording, uh, everything as well as at, at one point we did have a, , microphone embedded in, that was [00:15:00] on the table, but I think that didn't end up working out as well as they'd hoped. But yeah, we were constantly on camera and on Tuesdays and Thursdays, even when we had the land camera, we were also mic'd up as well.

So we were wearing mic packs and , yeah, it was, , it was kind of, it was, you know, to some degrees intrusive cuz it's, it's, it was very difficult to work with somebody like looking at you as you're working and then Yeah. You know, , and then like sometimes when they're focusing on the screen or they're focus, you know, like they're focusing on their face and I'm just, , on your face and you can feel it and it's just makes you super self-conscious.

And then, you know, I'm thinking like, oh my God, are they judging me as I'm working? Every little thing, every little keystrokes like, hmm, I don't know. You know? , and you know, everybody was, all the camera people were great. All the sound people were great. I, I, you know, the producers were fine. You know, I, I love, you know, I like 'em all, you know, as, as people, but it was just very, you know, it was weird.

And I think they even knew it was weird cuz it, you [00:16:00] know, it would've been weird. And they're trying to be as discrete as possible, but yeah, there's, there's no way to, to avoid it. And like, , it wears on you.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. It seems like a constant buzz of, you know, something you're thinking about and, oh God, are they making, making something of this?

Or did I say that right? Or I just imagine

Byron Wong: Absolutely.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oppressive.

Byron Wong: Absolutely, yes. And then you always kind of like second guess yourself, like, oh, I shouldn't have said that, or shouldn't have said it that way. And you kind of get worried about how these things are gonna be portrayed and, you know, we have no idea.

We, we won't know until, , you know, when the, until the show is released.

Julie Harris Oliver: Erica, how about you? Were you on camera the whole time, or every now and then? How'd it work for you?

Erica Djafroodi: It was a little different for me because the covid aspect of it all. You know, we were trying to play it safe and there wasn't really any need for me to be there every day with them.

I think that I would've just been more of a distraction. That said, all of our zooms were recorded and we did have a lot of zooms. It was a little bit hard not being there with them, only because [00:17:00] with this movie, you know, the director and the editor, they're making all of these decisions, and if you're not there, you don't really know what's going on.

And it's not like you get this daily recap. You're not watching the Project Greenlight dailies and seeing, okay, did they make these decisions, this or that? And so you kind of feel in the dark for a lot of it. And so I did feel kind of awkward on Zoom because I felt like I was discovering things on these recorded zooms that had already been discussed.

And I'm like, oh. Okay, cool. Uh, and then you kind of question like, what should I say now? Should I wait until the cameras are gone so I can ask the producers like, Hey guys, this might be an issue or this or that. You know, I wanted to, everyone was a little bit like nervous about it, and I wanted to respect the information and the, like, privacy of the actual project and everybody's time, you know?

So it definitely dictated my behavior sometimes because I didn't know what I could [00:18:00] or could not say. And then I would get nervous and I would say something silly and then laugh and be like, oh my God, don't put that, they're probably gonna make me look crazy if I'm on it at all, honestly. But, but Byron had, Byron had it all though, like he was on camera all the time and you know, there would be times where he's like, can I call you and I need to step outside?

Because we couldn't have a unrecorded conversation with, you know, like sometimes cameras would follow him and he's like, I'll talk to you about it later. So-

Julie Harris Oliver: On the way home.

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah, but it was, he got the, he got all of it, you know, I was just on Zoom, which was nice because I could still be in my sweatpants, you know?

Byron Wong: Yeah. There was, yeah, there, there was sometimes. I remember Erica, like, again, everybody, it was fairly cool, but they had their own job to do, which was to capture every little bit of drama that they could, and so, you know, they were pretty much hungry for anything, so anything that there was somewhat, you know, we, we always had to like be very aware of like, yes, they want to capture drama, but there's also stuff that [00:19:00] we need to discuss that was very personal.

Like, if we had some issues with people, you know, we didn't want that portrayed on camera because, you know, these, our people's livelihoods and these are people's, you know, jobs and we don't want to affect them negatively in any way. Cuz, you know, it certainly appears on the TV show. Yeah. You know, that's, that would be unfair to them.

So that's why, you know, like those are some of the, some of those instances and, but yeah, it got very weird a lot just cuz you know, yeah. They're, there'd be a lot of running around trying to, , evade the cameras as well though. Meko was quite masterful by that time. She had already experienced so much.

She's like, she knew exact-, she was always very conscious. She knew exactly. Okay. All, you know, taking out the mic or, you know, she, she was very on top of it. I was, I was a little bit less so because, you know, sometimes yeah, I'll forget to take out the, , turn off

Erica Djafroodi: the mic. You forget, you forget that they're there.

Which made also view reality television differently cuz I'm sure that this is not so much a reality TV show. It's more [00:20:00] like, it seems more docu-series. But yeah, they really, they really didn't script anything, you know. So like, it, it also made me view the previous seasons of Project Greenlight differently because if somebody appeared, To be kind of a jerk or a major jerk on a season of Project Greenlight.

It's like they were just really actually a jerk. Like they . They, they didn't like make him or them, excuse me, do do anything to make it more interesting, you know? That's

Julie Harris Oliver: so interesting how you were talking about it, Byron, that this isn't like Survivor, where you're doing this once and you're all going home and you're never gonna see each other again. Like you're gonna continue working with each other and having careers and you don't wanna burn it all down because you're on this television

Byron Wong: show. Absolutely. Like that is is so true cuz like, you know, especially like, you know, when we started getting notes and we're like, okay, you know, we, we sometimes you wanna be like, this is the most ridiculous note I've ever heard.

I can't believe like these people, you know, and we definitely had to, you know, temper some of our reactions. But than [00:21:00] that being said, you know, everything. I would work absolutely with anybody again, like with Hoorae, with like, you know, with CatchLight, you know, Jeanette and Yolanda, everybody, everybody was good.

It was just like, sometimes in the moment though, you'd be like, oh, that's insane. That's like ridiculous or something like that. But you know, you don't wanna say that because you know, they're okay. Yeah. That's going in the movie, the, the show and you know, that's gonna be, let's say a private moment, you know, between us suddenly gets blown up into like, , a bigger deal than it ever really was meant to be or should have been.

So, , yeah, we definitely had to do a lot of self-censoring and that's just part and parcel of it. You know, it's not like, you know, for example, when I say notes, it's like, you know, like, yeah, any note is a legitimate note because, you know, there's certain things, underlying factors behind it. You know, maybe this person said, oh, okay, can we like reduce this?

You know, can we cut this character out? It's like, okay, well you know what's not, we gotta look at what's not working in that character versus like, well, that's. Ridiculous. You know, like for which is the knee jerk reaction. So, you know that that's one of those things where you just want to be like, [00:22:00] okay, you want to take a moment, you know that you have your knee-jerk reaction, and then you kind of say, okay, take a breath and say, all right, let's, let's address this.

Let's fix it when you're on camera, you know? Yeah. They're gonna just keep that knee-jerk reaction and I'm really kind of worried about how that's gonna .

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Cause I think notes are hard anyway. Like, I think anyone's first reaction to notes are like, how dare you? And it needs a little time for you to actually hear the thing behind it.

So That's funny. So anytime I'm watching you and you're like, oh, interesting choice, like, I'm gonna read a little bit more into that now.

Byron Wong: Yes, absolutely. You'll, you'll recognize my side eye.

Julie Harris Oliver: You're like, that's his tell. He's so mad. Right. Let's talk about the, the constraints within the film itself. Cause I know it was a short post period, it was a small budget.

I think Erica, you probably had to deal with this a lot and not being in the room. Like how did that affect decisions being made? Like how many cuts you could do, how many notes you could actually incorporate how you dealt with the [00:23:00] visual effects. I know I just threw 20 questions at you, but you know what I'm getting at.

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah, it was, it was a little bit of a mess. I will say it because, you know, a lot of the crew does, , in, they do indie films and they've, you know, they've also done like, big projects, they do shorts, they do a lot of different things. Whereas I have worked in network tv, so I know kind of some of the limits, some of the rules that do seem ridiculous, like when it comes to stock footage, when it comes to a sound effect, you do.

When it comes to like the vendors you use, there are so many rules that I used to just be like, oh my gosh, this is so ridiculous. This is all just like making everything more complicated. But you know, I've just learned it. Whereas doing an indie, you don't have those restraints. And it was interesting because we had like indie producers, And they wanna make the best project they can make, which like, of [00:24:00] course you do.

But we were still working with a actual studio and had to follow their rules. And so, you know, we had to do a certain amount of cuts, , no matter where we thought it was. And the studio got say in a lot of things. So some stuff had to be compromised. And another interesting thing about it is because we had a unscripted television studio department working with us, they also weren't privy to all the theatrical rules.

And that includes myself. So for instance, in television, for a half hour show, the director gets two days with the cut and then it goes to producers and the director's gone and it turns into what it turns into. And an hour long television show, the DGA gives them four days. So when they were creating this post schedule before I was on board, and this post budget, you know, the producers who obviously don't work in post, so they don't know all those rules were like, Hey, HBO does this look good?

Because they should be the [00:25:00] ones to know this well, because they do television. They didn't know that a tier one theatrical film, the director gets 10 weeks with their director's cut, meaning the studio can't see any thing. They can't see any portion of the cut until after that 10 weeks. So there was a major disconnect because we basically still had to do the rules where we do a certain amount of cuts and do the certain schedule for the studio, but we had 10 weeks where they couldn't see it and we still had to fit it in this tiny timeline that they basically, the studio had been like, oh, they only need a couple days for the director's cut, so this should work.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh my God. Was it a big gap in the budget then too?

Erica Djafroodi: Oh my gosh, yeah. And it already was a tight budget because I read this script and I was like, okay, this is an extremely VFX heavy project. There's just no way around it. And so we already had a very limited budget for VFX and for sound, and we had a very specific amount of weeks for labor, and it [00:26:00] was just impossible when everybody realized we have to incorporate these 10 weeks.

These are DGA rules, but we still have to do what the studio says. And so we definitely went over and it was kind of, it was a little bit uncomfortable because you know, I kind of rallied a bunch of vendors that I work, that I have working relationships with, because I've worked on many shows with them and they were kind of doing us some favors because this movie visually was a lot more ambitious than the budget reflected.

And so it got, it got kind of weird cuz you're like pulling favors, but you have this tight timeline and you're like, Hey, can you please just like do this for us? , I don't know. It, it made things interesting and it, it definitely compromises the work because it's, I I always think it's so funny because like, this is Meko's first feature film, right?

And had she gotten to do whatever she wanted to. And had a little bit more [00:27:00] money, it probably would look very different, the effects and everything. And so now I look at some of these films like on tv, and I'm like, oh my gosh, those VFX are so bad. Oh, this is so cheesy, that's so fake. And I have a little more empathy because it's like, this is what they had to work with.

It doesn't necessarily mean this is creatively their style and they kind of suck because what they put out sucked. It's like, no, there, there are a lot of compromises and limitations because these things are so expensive, you know? And people are giving you money to make it so you, you can only go so far.

Julie Harris Oliver: Now, how is that for you as a producer? Cuz you come in, you know the budget's already set, you're seeing this big hole in the budget. So like day one, I imagine you have to be bad cop, which is probably not how you wanna present yourself on the first day. And at the same time, that's definitely your job.

And you definitely have to say something like, how do you, how do you do that?

Erica Djafroodi: It was uncomfortable because again, because the disconnect between, you know, [00:28:00] production that is used to indies and then I'm, I'm the liaison between HBO Max post production and the movie production. And so you have to kind of play both sides cuz you wanna keep everybody happy.

And so from the beginning, you know, I had to go dark for a couple of weeks while they were shooting because we were like, we don't have enough money. Like, you know, , so that, that was tough because I didn't know what was going on. And, you know, once I came back I offered some potential solutions because I could project that we were definitely gonna be over in labor, and so it was like, okay, we need to make some cuts. Now we can, during the director's cut period, put our assistant editor on hiatus and save that money while Byron and Meko are just working together. So if we have extra weeks on the backend, we can still pay them. But in those moments, you know, especially in indie filmmaking.

They're like, no, we don't wanna do that. That doesn't, you know, of course that's not [00:29:00] ideal. You don't want to make those cuts, but you end up paying for it later when it's really, really important to have these things if you don't, so like my mentality was like, let's see what we can spare in the beginning, especially during these 10 weeks where the studio can't see anything and we're not outputting cuts and everything, it will help us later, but everyone has to agree.

I can only offer these solutions. Like they're suggestions, you know? And so you, you have to compromise and it, it puts you in a weird situation financially because, I also don't wanna hurt my relationships with these vendors who are doing us favors. Yeah. And everything. But it, it made it weird cuz I had to ask them, you know, this is how much money we have, can you do this?

But then towards the end, there's always more, there's always more VFX at the end than you think. There's always more work at the end. There's more outputs, there's more color time, there's more online tim. Always. Like, I've never not had that. And so, you [00:30:00] know, you're like, this is how much money we have, what can you do for this amount?

And they also wanna make a good project. Their name is on it. So they're in a weird position too, because they don't wanna give you crap, you know, but they, they deserve more. So, , it was, it was weird.

Julie Harris Oliver: So then do you have a list in your head of, okay, my next job when I actually have some money and some more budget, I'm calling these vendors back and getting them on the job and making it up to them?

Erica Djafroodi: I'm already doing that. . Yeah, I'm working with Ingenuity, one of our VFX companies, , on Gray Matter on my show right now. And I've used them on a lot of shows and they're like my fave because they're just super cool and they really work with you. And I am mixing, , the show that I'm on right now at Formosa, which is where we did the feature.

And I've worked with them before too. So it was kind of like, Hey guys. I'm gonna do what I can. You know, I'm, I bring them work, you know, especially now that I'm in this position and have a little bit more say of what vendors each project uses, pending [00:31:00] everyone else approves. I, I nudge work their way because I know that they, they do a lot, they do a lot for their clients.

Julie Harris Oliver: It really speaks to, you have to take a long view of this career, right? It's never just that show you're on, you're gonna be working with all kinds of different people on all kinds of different projects. You really gotta think this is a 20, 30 with any like 40, 50 year relationships and journey.

Erica Djafroodi: Yeah. Yeah.

Which is why you should always be nice to everybody , because it's, you're always gonna run into these people again, or you're always gonna need a favor on an indie or something later. And, you know, people are willing to do it for you because they trust you and they know you're nice and you're, you're gonna keep bringing them stuff.

So it's. It's definitely, it's a small, it's a small industry.

Julie Harris Oliver: It really is. Excellent point. So now in general, if you're delivering for television or you're delivering for a streamer, or you're delivering for a theatrical. How does that change things for both of you?[00:32:00]

Byron Wong: Whether it's theatrical or streaming? I, I approach it the same way. It, it, it doesn't necessarily make a difference to me cuz we're still like, it's still the script. It's still the scene, it's still the, the, the footage that we have to work with, you know? And so I'm, I'm, I I work the same, pretty much the same way I, I usually do In we're where things are certain, you know, somewhat different is that, , you know, like for a feature I'll work in reels, , you know, about good 15 to 20 minute chunks.

Whereas, , say, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily do that in tv. I know like some people were kind of like, we're, we're new to that workflow. And so that, you know, sometimes it took some getting used to, but, , but that's, you know, how we did. Or mixes, that's, I'm not sure actually how we did the color, if we did that in reels were the full long play.

But, , I wasn't there for that portion of that. , but ,

Julie Harris Oliver: I mean since everything is digital now, does it affect the files, how they come out at the end, or what type of files you deliver?

Byron Wong: For me, I mean, like, I don't necessarily know because from what I [00:33:00] understand, it's like, yeah, people do now start working in the full long play.

And , and in fact I was chatting with some of those guys at Formosa and that's how they deliver it. That's how they deliver the film. You know, they don't necessarily deliver it in reels anymore, which is fine. , I just, for me, like, you know, when I work in those 15 to 20 minute chunks, it, it makes it more manageable mentally for me.

Yeah. , and cuz it's the workflow that I'm used to and it's also like, you know, gives me a little bit of like a, and for us, let's say, yeah, I could be working on real three and then my assistant could be doing stuff on reel two and, , you know, it, it, it helps in that, in that workflow as well. ,

Julie Harris Oliver: what about you, Erica?

Erica Djafroodi: Well, it was interesting cuz again, this was my first feature and so working in reels and the, the theatrical workflow Byron taught me a lot about because it was all basically the same stuff, the same concepts, but there was different language for it all. Even like, you know, in TV we say we're going to on line the cut, so we're gonna, because our editors are working with proxy footage, [00:34:00] smaller.

Sized footage so their systems can handle it. You know, once we lock the cut, we send it to online and they relink the files with the super high res footage, but in features they call it DI and, Digital Intermediate. And Byron taught me about that and how that also includes color, where that's a totally separate line item on a budget for tv.

And so it was, it was different the way that everybody spoke about it and the, you know, verbs we used and everything. Uh, but ultimately, It's all the same, especially, yeah. Now that everything is being delivered digitally, I would say every project and every studio I've worked with has done it differently.

They have different specs, they have different requirements that you need to output to, and it's all very tedious and meticulous, but you kind of just give that to the people who have to deliver the files. They do it. It's, it's not any harder. It's definitely easier than when we had to deliver things on tapes, like, , [00:35:00] HD cams and all of that stuff.

It's faster and you can be remote and you don't need a post PA driving, driving filmall over Los Angeles.

Julie Harris Oliver: To the airport.

Erica Djafroodi: Yes. Right. Which is, which is nice.

Byron Wong: That was my first time I visited LA was, , carrying, , six rolls of film of Changing Lanes on the, on the airport to, to get it dropped off to, so it could be, , rated by the MPAA.

That was my first time visiting LA That was like, , that, that I do not like this. It's like trying, going through an airport with. Oh my God. How many mad cases? It was like, you know, four, at least four ICCC cases, or, you know, like, , or Goldberg says they were known locally here. , it is so not fun. I, I, I, God, I hated it.

I hated it so much. .

Julie Harris Oliver: I wonder like if the generation coming up, like it seems to be, everyone who's been in it for a while has that story of like, driving a thing to the airport or the, and they always [00:36:00] put the most precious piece in the hands of the newest person on the crew who has it in the back of their car that may or may not even make it to the airport.

Like, I think, I don't know if this new generation's gonna have those stories.

Erica Djafroodi: I don't think so.

Byron Wong: It's good. It's all. These kids today, you know.

Julie Harris Oliver: These kids, they dunno what they're up against. That's

Byron Wong: funny. But, , one thing I, I do wanna like tag onto what Erica was talking about. Like, we were, we were chatting a little bit about this before that Gray Matter in particular was a weird kind of hybrid between feature filmmaking and TV making because it was a feature film made by mostly in, in, you know, like a very much a TV workflow.

Even though there, there are definitely like adjustments that were made because it was a feature film. Like we, we, we also still, I feel like we were in a TV workflow for a lot of it. I mean, you know, we, and it, it, it, it was challenging because yeah, there's, there's certain things that you expect when you work in a feature film.

You got to be certain. Pay [00:37:00] scales and you know, certain, you know, other, , you know, languages and workflows that you're all familiar with. But then, you know, you're also like dealing with a different, , a different require, these different requirements. For example, in feature films, I've never really dealt with a studio cut or a network cut and a studio network cut.

Usually it's, you know, an editor's assembly, , a director's cut and then working until you're getting, until your lock cut, you know, certain milestones are not, are marked usually by previews. , say Okay, we're gonna have a preview at this point and then see where we are, you know, get scores and that kind of stuff.

Here we're, we were turning over the cut for a while, once a week and getting notes and, and we are calling these fine cuts and soft locks and, , some of these other kind of terminology that I wasn't really used to in terms of working in features. , you know, I've done that for tv, but it was, it was a weird kind of hybrid and I, I, I don't know if we quite navigated it successfully, but I mean the film got done and, and we were, but it was really strange [00:38:00] and, and stressful in, in certain ways trying to marry those two different types of workflows together.

Julie Harris Oliver: Were there any challenges or drama or situations that you were able to keep away from the cameras that are not gonna end up in the show?

Byron Wong: I don't know if I can mention them here.

Julie Harris Oliver: So, yes.

Byron Wong: I mean, there, there's some things that, yeah, we definitely, you know, tried to keep out of camera's views and, and certain things were just, we felt it wasn't, no, it would, it basically would not have served anybody.

If these were to come to light, you know, it wouldn't help like ourselves, it wouldn't help the, , the other parties. It would not help the audience in terms of, , learning about filmmaking. , and even as for drama, it's, it wouldn't necessarily have been satisfying as a dramatic element either. So yeah, it, , yeah, there's, there's a couple.

There wasn't a lot, I mean, we, for the most part got along very well, and, , there wasn't too much drama in post. But, you know, there's some things that we didn't, [00:39:00] definitely didn't need to air, you know, certain laundry that could just remain where they were. I don't mixing mess metaphors here, but, ,

Julie Harris Oliver: so yes.

But they, they will remain a mystery. Yes, that's what I'm hearing. How about you, Erica?

Erica Djafroodi: I would say the same. I would kind of, , repeat what I said earlier about how this feels more like a docu-series rather than a reality show. And it's about first time directors and how to make films. And so some of the personal things that happen at any job when you have a ton of people working endlessly, especially when it's a low budget thing, you're getting paid less than what you're used to.

Um, and working more hours and, , all this stuff, you know, people, people are people. We're all human and not everybody works well together. But yeah, we, we tried to keep stuff like that again behind the [00:40:00] camera if we could, because yeah, it would serve no purpose for learning how to make a movie or it's, it would happen in any job, I feel.

I feel like there are, there are issues like, HR type things with any sort of job when you have a number of people. So, and it wouldn't have been that interesting anyways to be honest. So if you want the hot drama watch season four of Project Greenlight and then watch season five. And let's compare

Let's compare and see what director is cool.

Julie Harris Oliver: Wow. Okay. There's some, there's some shade right there, ladies and gentlemen.

Erica Djafroodi: Well, no, I just mean, I just mean I almost feel like this season just won't be as interesting. I don't know how they're gonna cut it together, you know? I mean, who knows what happens in post, but-

Julie Harris Oliver: It was so explosive that last season. How could it be? No. How could it be? Let's hope we've all learned something since that [00:41:00] one.

Erica Djafroodi: Right. And Meko is so chill. So like, it just, it was never gonna be that. Yeah, for sure. Sorry to disappoint the viewers.

Julie Harris Oliver: So what was one of your favorite memories that you'll take away from this project?

Byron Wong: For me, it was just like working with the people that, , you know, I worked with on this show, like meeting, you know, everybody. Like, that's what it's been like for me lately, just because after a while all these jobs kind of like would start to blend together. Like, you know, there's definitely things that, you know, you worked on that, you know, like scenes or cuts that you're very proud of and, you know, that kind of stuff like that.

Yeah. That was cool. I really liked that, how I did, you know, did that. And , you know, usually what it comes down to is just yeah, the people I'm working with and, , I loved working with Meko and I loved working with Yolanda and Jeanette and, , you know, people at Hoorae. It was really, it was really cool.

Like, , I, I feel like, of course Erica, I, you know, I was really bummed when you didn't come to the, , the [00:42:00] cutting room cuz it would've been, oh my God the cutting room would've been so much more fun. I mean, like, not that we weren't having fun already, but Oh my God, we would've had a blast.

Erica Djafroodi: I know. Would've it made it way more boring for me? Let me tell you.

Byron Wong: Oh yeah. But, , I, yeah, it to mean that was, that was my biggest takeaway. I feel like I've, I've made friends that I will hopefully continue to work with and, and just have friendships for the rest of my, my life, my career. I mean, I, I can't really specifically point to any one particular thing that, , was the best moment in this show, but just, just like, you know, I just, it's more of the experience that I've had working on it.

Julie Harris Oliver: How about you, Erica?

Erica Djafroodi: You know, because yeah, I'm not, I'm not editing the film, so, and of course you have to watch something to QC it a million times, but it still doesn't feel. I would still say, yeah, the relationships are much more prominent to me um, because Byron's right, especially when you're on the more management admin side of things, they all start to blend [00:43:00] together, you know?

Especially in episodic, because I'm doing 10 episodes simultaneously and sometimes I forget which is which, you know, it all blends together. But we've all in this industry worked with the stereotypical people that you hear about in Hollywood. Like, maybe not, it's not like Devil Wears Prada. It's not that intense.

But everybody's, you know, met. People that are difficult to work with. And so anytime you have a team where everybody is just truly kind and they're focused on their job and we all have the same goal and that's understood and just aren't lazy and respect one another, it, it makes so much of a difference.

And like major shout out to Byron because I also have learned so much from Byron just because he has all this theatrical experience and I didn't know about it. And I just found it pretty fascinating because it's not like I went to film school to, you know, be an accountant, which is a lot of the work that I do now.

You know, that's [00:44:00] not why I went to film school to do that or to make calendars. So it is fascinating and I learned so much from Jeanette and Yolanda, and both of them were just so nice and so encouraging and supportive. I just loved them and I would love to work with any of you guys again, truly, truly, and that matters because again, like I said, every, you know, you keep these relationships.

In this business you're freelance, you're going from gig to gig. So it's really important the more people you meet and like harbor relationships with, the more opportunities later and you wanna work with people that you like and that you know are good at their job and who are, who make the days easier by being kind.

Julie Harris Oliver: Before I ask you the martini shot, is there anything that I should have asked you that I didn't ask you that you're dying to talk about?

Erica Djafroodi: I mean, I do. I do love talking about post though to people who don't, who aren't in post because they don't know how many balls are in the air really at once. You know, you tell someone you work in post [00:45:00] production and it's like, oh, you edit the film together and then get it to the tv, and it's like, oh my gosh.

If it were that simple, , you know, like especially, especially when you have the micromanagement of a studio or network because they're the money people, you know, and having to make everybody happy. And I mentioned before, having to online everything and then color everything and sound effects and every stock footage shot.

There are rules and legalities to. And every line that you say in the film, if it like mentions something you could get in. So you have to be careful or you know, this didn't happen in this, but say Meko has a huge wide shot and from a mile away you can see a piece of graffiti that was just in the world.

Well that's not okay. Try to find that artist on Instagram and see if it is okay. And if not, spend thousands of dollars removing it. There's just so many tiny little things that go into it. And you know, everyone kind of focuses on production because production's awesome and it, it's definitely more [00:46:00] interesting than being on a bunch of computers.

But there is so much in Post where like we really help craft and create the project. And so, Yeah, I think, I think it's cool. I think post is

Byron Wong: cool. Yeah, that's is, this is where we clean up everything that they didn't get to or bother with during production. Like, , all, all these little things that it's, it's like during production you get, , all these little time bombs that you, you're not aware of until you get to post.

And then suddenly they all start exploding when suddenly we realized we had to do a lot of ADR because the floors are super squeaky that we couldn't, let's say, , address or they didn't wanna bother with. Like, I was on another show where like, it had just rained and, , people walked by the, you know, they're going into this car and like, and then the story had not rained.

Just rained. And , and so we had to like, spend few thousand dollars cleaning up this car from all the rain drops where it would've taken some of the, in production, you know, two minutes just to wipe it down with a piece of cloth. Oh my God. And so, like, , [00:47:00] that didn't happen on Gray Matter, but , I'm just talking about production and, and post in general. And a lot of times you don't even realize these things aren't gonna happen, are, are happening until you get the post. For example, like, , let's say like one of the, one, one of the mics failed for, you know, for one of the, in one of the scenes and you don't necessarily know until it's after the scene's been shot and we're already moved on.

And so there's pretty much nothing we can do. And so, , luckily we had amazing, talented, , sound editors like Jim Brookshire, who I also worked with on Tropic Thunder, but he, he was the dialogue editor on Gray Matter and, , he managed to save a lot of, , a lot of sound, , just because of his own expertise in talent.

But that's like some of the examples that we, we are constantly doing in

Julie Harris Oliver: post. So that fix it in post is not your favorite

Byron Wong: idea. Oh my God. I just, like my, a friend of mine, she gave me this t-shirt called Fix It In Pre with just said, Fix it pre. I don't, , I wore that a couple of [00:48:00] times on during the show, and so like, , I don't know if I'll make it into the cut, but it is very much appropriate because like the, I feel like, yeah, Erica, maybe, I don't know what you think about this, but like, there's so much that we could have done, so much money we could have saved if we had like, you know, if they had more, you know, again, Meko not to blame for any of this, but like, you know, if we, people had planned out, like, okay, looking at the script, we need more money in the VFX budget.

We need an onsite VFX supervisor all the time, and not for just, you know, certain, particular shots. , because, you know, all these things create issues for us down the line, you know, that, that type of thing. Like we're, you know, if people had, were able to plan a little bit better, we would've saved ourselves a lot of time and money.

Sometimes it just gets frustrating, especially when you're dealing with low. Low budget, low, like, you know, like not a lot of time to, you know, to, to work with. We have to be fully on point and , in, in sync and, , very organized and like, you know, I definitely will [00:49:00] like, take a lot of the blame for, let's say, you know, the visual effects being not as organized as I they should have been because there was a lot of like confusion sometimes with these.

We had these multiple spreadsheets going on and not all of them were always up to date in the best way. And like, , , and like a lot of times I, you know, I didn't have time to deal with it cuz there was so much else going on and then, but that also created issues down the line. , so

Erica Djafroodi: that wasn't you Byron though, sorry to interrupt you, but like, I, like, at least in my experience in tv, I've always, , my side of things has always handled the VFX in terms of tracking them and everything, but something about this specific project, the fact that I couldn't even see the editor's cut means I couldn't see what VFX shots needed to be done until we only had two weeks to get the VFX done, and so I wasn't able to help Byron and our assistant editor like really flesh these out and, , get these descriptions over to our VFX teams to [00:50:00] see how much it's gonna cost or how much time it's gonna take. It made it very difficult, you know, because Byron is sitting there all day being filmed, editing the actual movie, and I need to be able to see that movie and go through the time codes so I can ask him questions like, Hey, what are you looking for here?

Let me talk to vfx so he doesn't have to handle that. So it was kind of an impossible situation for you, Byron, because this project had so many effects, and I'm trying to help, I just put in like, okay, the description here is, , cool transition. And it's like, how do I explain that ? What does that mean?

Listen, I, so I'm like trying to get a bid from our VFX team being like, here, we need a cool transition . And they're like, okay, it's gonna cost this much. And then they see the footage at the end of the line when we need to deliver, and they're like, You guys, this is huge. Like it's gonna cost way more than this.

And so it, it created so many [00:51:00] problems because we just didn't have enough time after that 10 week director's cut and it Yeah, just, it made it hard. Yeah. And yeah.

Byron Wong: Definitely because like to your your point about that, it's like, , because a lot of times, you know, it'd be sitting with my, with Meko and she's like, ah, you know, like I'll put a temp, like whatever, kind of like wipe or dissolve or something, you know, whatever.

And, , and then she's like, okay, yeah, that, that as a temp, you know, they'll get the point across. But like, I really want something cool. I don't know what it is. And. or even just like, we have a lot of teleportation effects in this movie. And she wasn't sure about how she wanted it to look. Um, and she was like, well, you know, and we were always kind of promised we'd have some time to research and develop these looks with a vendor where like the vendor would say, okay, here, here are some, some examples of what we can do with this.

And then give us a couple things for us to explore and, and develop. And, , but we never got that opportunity. It was like, by the time we had gotten to that point, we're like, okay, what is it? We only have time for like, maybe like one or [00:52:00] two versions and that's it. And then we had to, we had to just keep going.

And, , that was really unfortunate and, and frustrating, especially for Meko that she didn't really get to play. Yeah, she felt she was like, you know, kind of like cheated out of some of those processes. Like she, you know, without being able to, , have an idea, like right off the bat, I mean, she had some ideas that, you know, but she was kind of hoping to, to lean on some of our, our visual effects, you know, artists' abilities and, , creativity on their own end to to, to see like what creative solutions that we could come up with the, to some of these issues.

And, you know, we never really had the time to fully explore.

Erica Djafroodi: She had to settle. She had to settle on some stuff due to running outta money and running outta time, which is just another reason why, you know, I look at everything differently now. If I think something looks cheesy, it's like that doesn't always reflect on the director or the editor.

Sometimes that just happens and you have limitations and who knows if they even liked how it turned out, you know? Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: Who knows If they had to [00:53:00] take a thousand water droplets off a car instead of being able to spend that money on some cool effect, like that puts it all in perspective. That example of somebody missing something visually up front robs you of something on the back cuz it's a finite amount of money.

So, Heads up everywhere. Oh my

Erica Djafroodi: gosh. Pay attention. Oh my even, even like, , I was on a show and we had a set of a grocery store and they put little organic stickers on all of the produce in the whole store, and legal came back to us and post and said, can you confirm that all of these are organic? Oh my gosh.

I was like, no. Like, I don't know. And they said, okay, well then you need to VFX the organic stickers off of every piece because we can't confirm it's organic. And that's false advertising because there were some real products in there, like next to the fruit and everything. So like that, oh my God, that then I was late to deliver that.

A lot of the VFX budget went [00:54:00] to that. It's just, it's so frustrating. These tiny little things and then you miss out on some other opportunities because of stuff like that. Wow. All right,

Julie Harris Oliver: now we have our martini shot. So as you all know, it's our last shot of the day or our last question of the podcast. So what advice do you have for someone who's wanting to do what you do?

What would you tell them?

Byron Wong: My answer would to that would be, , just you have to be proactive. and, you know, to get to where I am, and not that I'm like, you know, this highfalutin editor, you know, it's, I've had a weird career and I've gone in many different directions. But, , but just to, you know, to be successful, you can't be lazy.

You gotta be, you know, getting yourself out there, getting yourself in front of people, getting, you know, making those connections, and I'm guilty of it. Sometimes I get lazy and I'm like, oh, I really should send an email to this person. I don't feel like it right now. But, you know, you gotta just push through that and say, no, I gotta, you know, maintain these relationships.

You know, maybe send these emails, do some of these [00:55:00] cold calls, or, and be active. Like, I, I do a mentorship program where I mentor, like young women of color who are interested in, , well first of all, you know, the program is for, to be interested in anything, in any kind of field. But like the, the people that I've mentored have been interested in editing in general, and that's pretty much what I've, I've told each and every one of them is that, ,

You gotta, you gotta be, find out what's going on in the industry. Find out who your, you know, you know, the players are. And then also to know your stuff, know your craft. Yeah. Like when you're an assistant editor, , no one might, you know, people might not, you know, necessarily want to know, like, okay, how would you cut this thing differently?

But, you know, but somebody, someday, somebody would, like the editor you work for, for example, would be interested in saying, Hey, you know, how would you approach this? Or what, what's wrong with this scene? What do you feel like something's wrong with this scene? What do you think it is? And. And you never, you know, you gotta be prepared for that moment and say, okay, you know, this is what I think should, this is, this is the, you know, the issues I've been feeling, you know, and then that, [00:56:00] for me, that, that happened to me.

Were like, the editors I've worked for when I was an assistant, you're saying, oh, what do you think about this? And, , you know, like, okay, well, you know, I think maybe, you know, you're missing the wide shot here. You're missing the establishing childhood. That's what the, you know, or, or that's what I feel is, is wrong with the scene.

And they might try that, or it'd be cool to go to the close up to see what their reaction is. And, , and then like, for example, yeah, the editor I've worked with and they're like, oh yeah, that's a cool idea. And then they'll, they'll say, Hey, do you wanna start? You want take a stab at cutting the scene? . And then, you know, that's how, , I started cutting scenes for the editors and then to the point where like, yeah, the, the editor would be very comfortable with me, like cutting a bunch of different scenes.

And so like, oh yeah, one movie I worked on, I literally cut, at least did the first cut on half the scenes in the movie. And then, so just because, you know, well, there was many reasons why that happened, but like, there was, there was a lot of improvisation, so there was just so much footage to go through and so many different iterations.

We didn't have enough time. But, , the editor felt comfortable enough to trust me to, , cut these scenes and then at least, you know, [00:57:00] do the first cut of these scenes. And then we worked on them together and then like the editor ended up having to leave for, you know, , a bunch of different reasons. , and he said, well, you know, Byron, would you like to take over for me in the editor chair?

And that's how I got one of my first big editing jobs was that, , yeah, he let me take over for him. And then, and, , the director by that time and the studio had become comfortable enough with me to be able to trust me in those situations.

Julie Harris Oliver: You never know when opportunity's gonna present itself. Exactly.

Byron Wong: Exactly. So yeah, that would be like, you know, to just to kind of like, for people starting out, just to be on top of it and be, be persistent and be prepared.

Julie Harris Oliver: Great. Erica?

Erica Djafroodi: I would say keep working. You know, you have to start from the bottom a lot of times. And, you know, you come in as a PA and you're getting people coffee, you're cleaning the coffee machine, you're getting like craft service and you get paid terribly and people yell at you sometimes [00:58:00] and it's, it's a tough, you gain a lot of humility if you take it in how you should.

And, , so getting through that. Is, you know, some people get promoted quick, but you, you see these like recent USC grads and UCLA grads and we all, we all came here, you know, because we love film or at least a lot of us did, and we're creative people and that's not always the job. You know, like it takes years and years sometimes of having not fun jobs, not creative jobs that you may feel kind of entitled to because maybe you won best in show in your college film festival and you know, you've been told that you're this creative person and everything.

And so it's a hard pill to swallow. And I know a lot of people who started as PAs and they're like, I can't do this anymore. I deserve a coordinator job, or I wanna be a writer, this or that. And so they won't take another PA. so they only know the five people that they worked with on that [00:59:00] first job because they're not willing to, you know, take that bad pay and work through it, but just keep working, take the jobs even if you got promoted once and have to go back to the previous position for one season.

All of these are short term gigs and you'll get through it. And the more experience you have, the better the more people you meet. And what Byron said, don't be lazy. Really people just want to work with pleasant people and people that will help them. You know, no one is really trying to like get you to do all the work for them.

There's a lot of moving parts and. You wanna be able to trust people to just help you if they can. And so there's not a lot of time to just like sit around and not be proactive or you won't get hired again because you're not very helpful. And the people who stand out really care and will ask you, you know, what can I do to help?

Like, is there anything that you need right now? And that's tough cuz that's a lot of energy. It is a lot of energy. It takes that, it takes energy, it takes [01:00:00] humility. But again, if you hate your boss, if it's the worst job ever, you're gonna be on a new show or a new project in a couple months and it might not be that bad.

So don't, don't quit or think you're too good to do it. Just keep working. That's

Julie Harris Oliver: great. Sometimes you have to get the coffee mm-hmm. . But it'll lead to bigger and better things.

Byron Wong: I've gotten so much coffee for people. Like, there was a time I actually, I was working with the editor of, of Snake Eyes, ended up working for, you know, the great Bill Panko, who is a fantastic editor and just a even better person.

I, I love the guy. He is in many ways really responsible for my career. Like for all the people who've, you know, helped me, you in the past. He's definitely like, , you know, helped push me forward. He got me my agent at UTA, , anyway, but, , yeah, I, I made coffee for him, cappuccinos for him, like on several different jobs, you know, and you know what, I was happy to do it cuz he was really cool guy and he was always the nicest and I was happy to do it for him.

Absolutely. I'll, I'll do it for him today. You know, [01:01:00] cuz , you know, he, he's been such a, Influence and, you know, a person in my life. So to that point, to Erica's point, you know, it's like your attitude counts for a lot. You know, I've worked with, I've had assistants who've had, you know, issues like, I feel like I deserve more than this.

And I understand that. I try to, you know, help you with that. But at the same time, like you giving me this attitude, sometimes feeling like you're above the a the work I'm asking you to do definitely is a turnoff. And, , I can get another assistant easily to do the work that, you know, you, you need to do without the attitude.

So, you know that that's the situation for a lot, lot of people starting out. And like, you know, a lot of times, like, I realize sometimes like, yeah, like the work's not easy. The work is not fun, you know, and, , you know, it's not always, you know, you're doing what, you know, you feel might be, you know, necessarily like, you know, below your station, but you know, that you, you do the work that you're, you're, you've been hired to do.

And, , you know, like, yeah, when I, even when I've become an editor, I've, I've done, I've gone back to assisting just to, you know, [01:02:00] to. to work to be able to, you know, make my hours, for example. But that's, , you know, that's what you had to do because, you know, you weren't, not everybody was gonna say, okay, you've, you know, edited this one thing, so you're gonna be an editor from now on.

Don't, doesn't always work that way. So, you know, you do what you have to do to make your living, to make, you know, to get your hours in and to, , survive and just meet more people and meet new people and expand your network. So like, yeah, your attitude counts for a lot and it, and sometimes it's the only thing it can count for.

Erica Djafroodi: Last thing I'll say is, I, when I was a pa, I was a PA for a long time and it was like kind of soul crushing and I ha I . When I was a PA, everybody called me peanut. I don't know why. Maybe you can guess , but I just, I just remember all these stories happening that I'd be like, oh my gosh, this is so Hollywood that it would almost make, it would be like laughable.

And I wanted to have this anonymous blog called Peanut the PA, or , from the peanut gallery or something and tell these Hollywood stories. But I always [01:03:00] remember during that time thinking, no matter how high I get, never be too good to be a PA. And I've always tried to remember that like. Never think that you're too good to do these tasks because all of the tasks are important.

They really are. Even though the money doesn't always reflect that, admittedly, I feel like the best bosses that I've ever had are the ones who don't minimize that work. And you know, if the PA is super busy, they'll help order the lunch. They are not too good to do those tasks. And I think those are the kindest people.

And in today's day and age, I think that. That Hollywood could kind of turn into that with the new generations and stuff, there's way less stereotypical crap it seems like. It seems like it's heading that direction, and I think that's great. It doesn't have to be how it once was, you know, with Devil Wears Prada.

Oh my gosh. I've referenced that twice. But you get it.

Julie Harris Oliver: We are. We are down for the revolution, and I would listen [01:04:00] to that show all day long. Nina, the PA . Thank you so much both of you. Erica Djafroodi and Byron Wong. Thank you so much for being on Catch a Break.

Byron Wong: Thank you for having us.

Erica Djafroodi: Thanks for having us.

Byron Wong: It was fun.

Julie Harris Oliver: This has been Catch A Break, Project Greenlight edition. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank our guests, Erica Djafroodi and Byron Wong. And special thanks to crewvie.com, a dynamic platform that connects people to productions worldwide. Please check out our website at catch a break podcast.com and follow us on all the social media.

Catch A Break is produced in partnership with Catch Light Studios and the other 50%. Our theme music mantra for a struggling artist was composed by Andrew Joscelyn. Thanks for listening, and be sure to go watch Project Greenlight and then come check us out for the behind the scenes of the behind the scenes.

Next up, we finish the film by talking with Jeff Pitts, the sound designer, and Haim Mazar the composer. In the meantime, I hope this helps you to catch a break.[01:05:00]